Concerning Alchemy and Enlightenment?

[WhiteTiger]

I didn't read EVERYTHING everyone has writen so far. But let brake it down as practical approach. (reminding everyone i've drankin a little while writing this *sigh* i konw i'm a bad Buddhist and/or Taoist)

 

Weather one is better then another in one sense or another is not my place to say. But more importantly is it your place to say. I'm not trying to put you in your place but if you think with me maybe you could come along similar lines as me when i'm thinking about it.

 

Its one thing to read and understand what one is talking about its another thing to practice and understand from practice. As i was taught there are three different types of knowledge.

1. Meaning the scientific that what science says is fact.

2. Second we could call the bibblical one (when one says something we believe it because it says it. You could also replace the word "believe" with "Faith" even though there are a few very well understood BIG differences with believes and faith)

3. The third is something we just know. This one i will have the most difficulty explaining in word. It is something you just understand, weather its backed with other knowledge or its just something you instinctively know. Its something you have realized. Maybe you haven't "YET" traced how you came to know it is a fact, but if you ended up studying you also find it is true and in practice you find it helps you. This could be even considered intuition but let me caution everyone reading this post that intuition has been used by many weird different understandings and has many different speciffic meanings (in other words people don't stab in just because i used the word intuition while it might have a different meaning to you. I am a searcher for knowledge and wisdom, I might even dabble in intellectual things too. *rofl maybe not a great one but non the less still a searcher of those things* so please try and learn all the possible understanding and/or definitions of intuition before you start an argument over that one please)

 

 

So the argument in the past has been Taoists being better in one area while Buddhists being better in another or all together better or higher level. (What ever the hell you want to turn it into) But i say unless everyone has practiced both so indepth you think that EVERYONE talking about the subject is under you then can you say what is what and so fort. Then again lets not say one can not talk or understand things about that. Maybe my statement was one a little bold. Well lets put it this way then. You can only truly understand from understanding one angle, you need to learn to try and understand things from all angles (while this could be almost impossible, and in reality when it comes to enlightenment you don't need to see it in all angles one gives you the truth throughout all the angles and then you understand it, or that your enlightened and you happen to see it in all angles and the truth is the same in all angles [i've heard both types of explanations of enlightenment])

 

Anyway I totally lost myself and like i said i drank a little tonight while typing this up.

 

Just to finish my point is, unless experienced both only through deep experience can you then have a key understanding to truly have a good debate going. Of course you always want to check how much you really know, maybe the taoism you learned was limited or the Buddhism was limited or even both.

 

In conclusion, the point to cultivate both to truly understand what wisdom, or any sort of knowledge holds in each practice up to its fullest extent is only done through personal practice of each of your own to and the TRUE meaning or understanding you really should desire (only through non desire although otherwise its a stray off of the path of spirituality)

 

So as a close to being drunk person BOOYEAH ON WHAT I THINK IS WELL WRITTEN ROFL

 

(i have no clue how clear this is... but i'm sure if people actually understand it, it is practicially quite intellectuals. i think )

[Starjumper]

Hey SJ,

 

Yes, but through proper cultivation - whatever that is - it seems we can transcend or see through the discursive mind and the said limitations of language. So this brings us back to the question of what is proper cultivation. Even assuming a non-dual stand where there is nothing to see or nothing to get or even cultivate - enlightenment or otherwise - it seems to most that something is missing, that they exist and they are suffering or somehow incomplete - perceptual or something more primitive; thus, the search moves forward, as each is relentlessly compelled whether through sensual gratification, emotional or psychological drives or spiritual aspirations. So, we may say how to properly cultivate, or we may ask how do we find lasting - non-contingent - peace, satisfaction and happiness; or how do we notice that which we already are? Word or frame it as you like, but the historical human cognitive experience is a real one, a need at this level, I would suggest, has existed in every person through time - locally at least. Resolution is sort - a drive that is fundamental to the human condition. So the problem of resolution is a genuine one, and exists whether their is a language to describe it in or not. Certainly, we need language to discuss it. And the scientific method seems to suggest some descriptions are more useful than others, and perhaps statistically, more effective at realizing a resolution to the said problem.

 

It would appear Lin has argued for the development of wisdom as a means to the resolution of the above said problem. SJ, do you feel this is an adequate solution? Would you offer some other, more concrete, less vague proposition? Wisdom as a trans-personal referent - perhaps a non-dualistic state or condition personally developed or realized - may not be vague per se, but its linguistic representation certainly is. For what is wisdom and when is X not wisdom?

 

Yes, the feeling of something missing, the feeling of disconnect, that we are somehow incomplete. I name thee The Fear. Why of why did we loose the Garden of Eden?

 

Developing wisdom will not solve this problem. Wisdom will result from solving this problem but cultivating or having wisdom will not solve the problem. Since the wisdom comes after the solution then the wisdom doesn't really matter, does it? The exact nature of this solution/wisdom can not be transmitted to others with words, so alas, the wisdom path fails utterly.

 

However, I can ally myself with Lin to some extent and that is: his path to cultivating wisdom may coincide to some extent with the path to overcoming The Fear, so to the extent that they coincide then he is on the right path =)

 

Edit: I just read Lin's last post, where he explains what he means by wisdom and I see it agrees more with my ideas of what wisdom is (versus knowledge). I don't think being in the state of wisdom that he describes is enough to get over The Fear.

 

Remember that many of those who have overcome The Fear, at least the quickest to do so, are warriors, warriors kill and punish.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Todd,

 

Dreams maybe not so but when i truely think about my Mind in a sense of what Lin has just mentioned im far from all that. There is times i get pissed off and think things i shouldnt, do things i shouldnt, say things i shouldnt etc. When it comes to my kung fu and fighting my mindset is very strong but complete opposite to pure heart. So i can only imagine what it would feel like to be free from all and attain Pure Heart like Buddha!

 

Lin,

 

Thanks brother, hope to see u on later for a Chat!

 

WYG

[林愛偉]

Yes, the feeling of something missing, the feeling of disconnect, that we are somehow incomplete. I name thee The Fear. Why of why did we loose the Garden of Eden?

 

Developing wisdom will not solve this problem. Wisdom will result from solving this problem but cultivating or having wisdom will not solve the problem. Since the wisdom comes after the solution then the wisdom doesn't really matter, does it? The exact nature of this solution/wisdom can not be transmitted to others with words, so alas, the wisdom path fails utterly.

 

However, I can ally myself with Lin to some extent and that is: his path to cultivating wisdom may coincide to some extent with the path to overcoming The Fear, so to the extent that they coincide then he is on the right path =)

 

Edit: I just read Lin's last post, where he explains what he means by wisdom and I see it agrees more with my ideas of what wisdom is (versus knowledge). I don't think being in the state of wisdom that he describes is enough to get over The Fear.

 

Remember that many of those who have overcome The Fear, at least the quickest to do so, are warriors, warriors kill and punish.

 

 

 

If there is Wisdom, there is no fear.

 

 

Peace and Blessings Brother,

Lin

[WhiteTiger]

Extremely well put SJ!!!

 

Lin, i'm wondering why you seek wisdom?

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong bu practically speaking buddhists generally look for wisdom, because they are following Dharma, which is teaching of the proper way to follow with peace inside because you have the feeling of not being harmed.

 

While Daoists don't always follow the proper teachings of Dharma and they could at any time fall by not practicing Te properly. They must have practiced it pretty properly to begin with and to get as far as they did. Through teachings of Tai Chi for the spreading good and positive things throughout the community you must look realize the best way to do this is to take away all fighting and or forms that stem from fighting like competing. The only type of competing you can do at is competing against yourself. But this idea has a notation on the end of it. This notation is very important for you are not striving to to beat yourself exactly but a certain amount (the amount can not be done consciously). The reason for this is really clear you don't want to obstruct yourself from your path. So basically if you run a mile in 5 minutes and your trying to get at least 5 seconds off next time you attempt it. If you fail this means a big deal you get angry mad frustrated. This obstructs you from you path, peace of mind, (not to get all gay on you guys) but harmony.

 

I am not claiming Taoism is better then Buddhism. Nor the other way around. I have not been very far down any buddhist paths. I've practiced very few things that has its ties on Buddhism only one meditation (only achieved through continuous external exercises of constant repetition, so already shows how much more i have to discover on my path). I've always look to go towards the Taoist path... always trying to be absorbed into Tao.

 

Lots of people go around preaching taoist this and that. I think one of the most important things all people following this way... weather you also or mostly Buddhist. So let me explain the importantce of "ABSORBING INTO THE TAO"

 

The Importance of Abosrbing into the Tao

 

Please keep in mind: This is in no way an exact science where there are straight forward facts to follow or things to know there is an exception to every rule. It is as expansive as the Universe.

 

 

We can understand a few things of the Tao... Tao means The Way... it is a way its personal to the practitioner. When you learn to follow the Tao you also start to integrate . You do learn to "live in the Now" or "Be in the Now" This is important. It allows you to focus on your task at hand. It also allows you to automatically have you change with the Tao. When obstruction happens in your way, as long as your absorbed into the Tao you also change with the change just because thats what it is... it feels right it puts you back on your focus... it is your task... these principles as you guys must realize they overlap. The Tao changes... you change with the Tao...

 

The most important thing to be absorbed into the tao you must have Yin and Yang balanced. This is the best way. No matter how you accomplished this in needs to be balanced.

[joeblast]

With wisdom, one can see things simply and proceed correctly. It seems like everyone posting in this thread understands this to a certain level, but then proceeds to opine and make the whole thing more complicated, and needlessly, imho.

 

Perhaps we need to shift this discussion and define what wisdom means to each of us? As an afterthought, best methods to attain wisdom?

 

SJ, methinks that The Fear is somewhat of a separate issue than can be overcome by a few different methods. Some wisdom wont necessarily get you over the fear, but at some level, it absolutely will.

Edited February 20, 2008 by joeblast

[Stigweard]

Wisdom is to 'see'

Instant flow of true knowledge

River meets the sea

[steve]

 

 

Perhaps we need to shift this discussion and define what wisdom means to each of us? As an afterthought, best methods to attain wisdom?

 

 

Currently, I consider wisdom (at least in part) to be an understanding of the process of and limitations of thought.

 

One method to attain this is to cultivate a state of awareness or mindfulness that allows you to passively observe the process of thought - this includes attachment, the reduction of reality to words and images, the role of images in relationship and behavior, the motivators of fear and desire, and so on... Once the thought process is understood to a certain degree and the ability to observe without interfering is cultivated, many traps can be avoided and progress can be made.

[林愛偉]

Extremely well put SJ!!!

 

Lin, i'm wondering why you seek wisdom?

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong bu practically speaking buddhists generally look for wisdom, because they are following Dharma, which is teaching of the proper way to follow with peace inside because you have the feeling of not being harmed.

 

While Daoists don't always follow the proper teachings of Dharma and they could at any time fall by not practicing Te properly. They must have practiced it pretty properly to begin with and to get as far as they did. Through teachings of Tai Chi for the spreading good and positive things throughout the community you must look realize the best way to do this is to take away all fighting and or forms that stem from fighting like competing. The only type of competing you can do at is competing against yourself. But this idea has a notation on the end of it. This notation is very important for you are not striving to to beat yourself exactly but a certain amount (the amount can not be done consciously). The reason for this is really clear you don't want to obstruct yourself from your path. So basically if you run a mile in 5 minutes and your trying to get at least 5 seconds off next time you attempt it. If you fail this means a big deal you get angry mad frustrated. This obstructs you from you path, peace of mind, (not to get all gay on you guys) but harmony.

 

I am not claiming Taoism is better then Buddhism. Nor the other way around. I have not been very far down any buddhist paths. I've practiced very few things that has its ties on Buddhism only one meditation (only achieved through continuous external exercises of constant repetition, so already shows how much more i have to discover on my path). I've always look to go towards the Taoist path... always trying to be absorbed into Tao.

 

Lots of people go around preaching taoist this and that. I think one of the most important things all people following this way... weather you also or mostly Buddhist. So let me explain the importantce of "ABSORBING INTO THE TAO"

 

The Importance of Abosrbing into the Tao

 

Please keep in mind: This is in no way an exact science where there are straight forward facts to follow or things to know there is an exception to every rule. It is as expansive as the Universe.

We can understand a few things of the Tao... Tao means The Way... it is a way its personal to the practitioner. When you learn to follow the Tao you also start to integrate . You do learn to "live in the Now" or "Be in the Now" This is important. It allows you to focus on your task at hand. It also allows you to automatically have you change with the Tao. When obstruction happens in your way, as long as your absorbed into the Tao you also change with the change just because thats what it is... it feels right it puts you back on your focus... it is your task... these principles as you guys must realize they overlap. The Tao changes... you change with the Tao...

 

The most important thing to be absorbed into the tao you must have Yin and Yang balanced. This is the best way. No matter how you accomplished this in needs to be balanced.

 

 

Getting abilities, sensations, feelings, states can be done without wisdom. But it isn't safe at all. People get arrogant, and greedy without wisdom, and that creates the problems.

 

Absorbed into the Tao is an end result, but it isn't that one is absorbed into something that is separate from their original nature, it is just that they are wise enough to realize what is wholesome and what isn't.

Obstructions and such don't just happen, they are created by one's own mind, and it is wisdom cultivation which allows one to realize the causes and conditions of their mind, change their situations.

Lastly, if Tao is always changing, then it isn't ultimate. There is that which never changes, never comes and never goes. That certainly would be the Tao, but I think a lot of people writing about Taoism in the past got caught up in the Yin and Yang aspect of things. This kind of statement you have quoted on Absorbing into Tao, really sets the stage for years of misunderstanding about mind and cultivation. Its no wonder that there are so many "oppositions" between the western understanding of Buddhism and Daoism. People are looking at the same quarter and calling it a penny and a dime.

 

If there is a "Now" there must be a past, and future. If there is no "Now" then all that arises and falls does so according to the mind, in which reality would be only what you have the capacity to realize, understand. There is no "Now". That "Be in the Now" catch phrase has led to more false and scattered thinking than not. Its amazing how commercialism sells the cultivation of being in a mindful state of all things, without discriminating against them. That would be what "Now" means; A Non-Discriminate mind.

 

 

I personally wouldn't trust any of these "Tao/Dao" philosophical writings within the last 40 yrs.

 

Getting caught up in "Change", Yin and Yang, is the last thing one wants to do. If mind is proper, all is proper. If one's mind is peaceful, the world is a totally peaceful, enlightened place, yet once a discriminating thoughts arises, peace ceases.

 

Why not cultivate wisdom? It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[steve]

If there is a "Now" there must be a past, and future. If there is no "Now" then all that arises and falls does so according to the mind, in which reality would be only what you have the capacity to realize, understand. There is no "Now". That "Be in the Now" catch phrase has led to more false and scattered thinking than not. Its amazing how commercialism sells the cultivation of being in a mindful state of all things, without discriminating against them. That would be what "Now" means; A Non-Discriminate mind.

I believe that there can be a Now without past or future. Past is memory, which is knowledge. Future is projection of knowledge into the unknown. Both are the process of thought. Thought is time. Now is experience, pure and simple. Now is outside of time because time is thought and now is experience. There is never any moment of being which is not now. The issue arises that once we think about the experience or the now, it has already passed and is a memory.

Edited February 21, 2008 by xuesheng

[林愛偉]

I believe that there can be a Now without past or future. Past is memory, which is knowledge. Future is projection of knowledge into the unknown. Both are the process of thought. Thought is time. Now is experience, pure and simple. Now is outside of time because time is thought and now is experience. There is never any moment of being which is not now. The issue arises that once we think about the experience or the now, it has already passed and is a memory.

 

 

The reason of my writing about "Now" catch phrase was to stop the thinking of "Now". For persepctions sake, there can be the 3 periods of time; Past, Present and Future. It can exist either as a use of the function, or as a use in being unconscious about the function.

 

When there is experience, there is a thought of one experiencing. It is a view held about oneself empowered over a long period of time which deisgnates there being a view of the experiencer. Thus, even experiencing the "Now" is a falsity.

 

It can be said that though the 3 periods of time exist, they exist because of views, because of mind. When there are no more views, no more thoughts, all 3 periods of time are merged, and there is only Thus. It is not a "Now", a "Past" nor a "Future". When all is brought back to the mind, and purified, there is nothign that arises, and yet nothing is said to have not arisen.

 

The "Now" concept is a great tool to stop the distinguishing mind, but if there is a thought of "Being in the moment" that "Now" experience is only a past memory and will not be attained again. You hit that right on the head!

 

Peace and Blessings Brother,

Lin

[steve]

When there is experience, there is a thought of one experiencing. It is a view held about oneself empowered over a long period of time which deisgnates there being a view of the experiencer. Thus, even experiencing the "Now" is a falsity.

....

The "Now" concept is a great tool to stop the distinguishing mind, but if there is a thought of "Being in the moment" that "Now" experience is only a past memory and will not be attained again. You hit that right on the head!

 

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but this is worthy of investigation, IMO...

 

Can there be experience without thought of experience?

Can Now exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

What would the quality of mind be like in this state?

Is this the state we are often approaching in our meditation?

 

Once thought enters....like you said... then there is time and Now is gone ...

 

 

Cool stuff to ponder... I think that's why I'm so drawn to J Krishnamurti's work

[Todd]

 

Once thought enters....like you said... then there is time and Now is gone ...

 

 

 

 

Just more words. Do you know what is coming?

 

Now never disappears. Thoughts cannot disturb it.

 

What is that?

 

 

Alright... let go of even that.

 

 

 

Bam! There you are. Now what does that feel like? Is it really necessary to deny what you are, even in really subtle ways?

 

It all starts from the realization that you can access. Thinking you can access it just cuts it up into little pieces. What was always there? What do you wake up to? How has it been moving?

[WhiteTiger]

[Stigweard]

Being in the now... I agree with Lin that this 'catch phrase' is easily misrepresented.

 

The unfortunate prediliction of our rational based 'ego' is that, for the most of us, our awareness of 'now' is ever only a mistranslated memory of a moment that has already occurred and passed us by.

 

We first have the original phenomena, the 'real' now. However our experience of this 'now' shrinks because our perception is limited to only a miniscule bandwidth of what is possible.

 

This emaciated 'now' is diluted even further through the filter of our individual, socially conditioned view of the world.

 

So for the majority of people 'now' is nothing more than a distorted memory.

 

If we want to truly 'live in the now' we have to dissolve our 'view of the world' and access the full bandwidth of perception available to human awareness. My understanding and experience is that the practical techniques within the traditions of Tao endeavour toward this achievement.

[WhiteTiger]

Being in the now... I agree with Lin that this 'catch phrase' is easily misrepresented.

 

The unfortunate prediliction of our rational based 'ego' is that, for the most of us, our awareness of 'now' is ever only a mistranslated memory of a moment that has already occurred and passed us by.

 

We first have the original phenomena, the 'real' now. However our experience of this 'now' shrinks because our perception is limited to only a miniscule bandwidth of what is possible.

 

This emaciated 'now' is diluted even further through the filter of our individual, socially conditioned view of the world.

 

So for the majority of people 'now' is nothing more than a distorted memory.

 

If we want to truly 'live in the now' we have to dissolve our 'view of the world' and access the full bandwidth of perception available to human awareness. My understanding and experience is that the practical techniques within the traditions of Tao endeavour toward this achievement.

 

I thought i put into words many times throughout my long long a$$ post that i agree with this... and i believe everyone else does.

[Stigweard]

I thought i put into words many times throughout my long long a$$ post that i agree with this... and i believe everyone else does.

 

 

Hehehe ... indeed you did. I wrote this post over a period of hours and by the time I had actually posted it you had posted yours

 

All good...

 

Carry on, no foul, Lin has the ball

[Starjumper]

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but this is worthy of investigation, IMO...

 

Can there be experience without thought of experience?

 

Yes

 

Can Now exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

 

Yes

 

What would the quality of mind be like in this state?

 

Pure awareness

 

Is this the state we are often approaching in our meditation?

 

This is the state you want to approach all the time including your day to day activities, the sitting is for the training of it.

 

While I agree with Lin on his definition of wisdom and with most of his stated benefits i can't agree that it cures the problems that Adam asked about, the feelings of separation, alienation, disconnect, something missing, which I called The Fear. I included a hint about ithe solution in my first response =)

[林愛偉]

Can there be experience without thought of experience?

 

Yes

 

Can Now exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

 

Yes

 

What would the quality of mind be like in this state?

 

Pure awareness

 

Is this the state we are often approaching in our meditation?

 

This is the state you want to approach all the time including your day to day activities, the sitting is for the training of it.

 

While I agree with Lin on his definition of wisdom and with most of his stated benefits i can't agree that it cures the problems that Adam asked about, the feelings of separation, alienation, disconnect, something missing, which I called The Fear. I included a hint about ithe solution in my first response =)

 

 

As long as there is a view within the mind of the being experiencing, and a thought

of there being something experienced, there is a thought, therefore "Now" is still a state with a Mirror and a stand. It must not only be dusted off constantly, but it also must be dropped. A "Now" indicates a time, an experiencer of it and the experience of a "Now" existing. It is said to exist, but only in mind, thus it is a state and if there is attachment to it, it wouldn't be a pure state of awareness. An awareness regarded requires a view of ego, others, a being and a lifespan, or one or the other...in which they will result in one or the other.

 

If Wisdom wasn't enough, the Buddha wouldn't be the Buddha.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[steve]

Would it be better to start a new thread on this topic?

I'm not sure if this line of inquiry is where Adam wanted to go with this thread...

Nevertheless, I'm enjoying the discussion....

 

To achieve pure awareness, pure experience, nothing can be there (in the mind) to cloud that awareness. This means a complete letting go of all of the conditioning, all of the desire and expectation, all of the comparison.

 

Is this really possible?

 

In my view this is a question that cannot be answered lightly. It is a question that requires enormous energy, persistence, and sincerity and must be explored and experienced first hand. No one can answer this question for another. The answer is meaningless if it comes from outside. It can only come from inside. It's really the question that counts and even that doesn't matter if the individual does not invest enormous energy to answer it for themselves.

 

Once everything is dropped completely and nothing remains to cloud the moment of pure being, who is it that is present in that moment? If someone is present in that moment, then is the moment still pure?

That is the nature of the question - Who Am I?

Who Am I? - once all the conditioning is dropped. Once there is pure experience with no distinction between experience and experiencer. Mind is nothing more than it's total content - memories, desire, fear, thought, attachment.

Once the content is dropped, what is left?

Who is there?

Edited February 22, 2008 by xuesheng

[Guest allan]

 

Getting caught up in "Change", Yin and Yang, is the last thing one wants to do. If mind is proper, all is proper. If one's mind is peaceful, the world is a totally peaceful, enlightened place, yet once a discriminating thoughts arises, peace ceases.

 

Why not cultivate wisdom? It would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Only the ignorant or the very arrogant think that they know more than the great sages - Laozi, Confucius and Buddha - in their respective teachings of yin yang, the dark and the light, forms and formless, all of which constitute natural changes.

 

If change can be so easily understood or seen, the holy sages need not write down its patterns and images in the Book of Changes (Yijing, the Yi) for posterity. Neither would the great Chinese sages, the wise and the learned, need to devote much time in studying this ancient Chinese classic, if it was not profound.

 

Over the past few millennia, the sages, the wise, the Zhen Ren, the Neo Daoists and the Neo Confucians had diligently studied this foremost ancient classic in China. Yet, specious masters especially those who come out from China, chose to denigrate the Yijing, declaring it was meant for the superstitious.

 

Perhaps these masters thinking that they are somewhat enlightened, assumed that they understand the Tao Te Ching and the Yijing? Perhaps they also like to infer that the Daoist immortals and the Zhen Ren, who passed down their texts on neidan with references to various Hexagrams (like Kan and Li, Qian and Kun) in the Yi, were equally superstitious?

 

If only these arrogant masters and their students had properly investigated, probably they could trace links between neidan and the TTC right up to the Yi?

 

Not only have they misled students in the West for decades, they could also deprive their students from studying a real book of wisdom dealing with changes. And such natural changes can be seen during correct neidan (inner alchemy) meditation.

 

What a waste of talent. Do not get me wrong, Lin, I am not blaming you. But like what you correctly indicated, why not properly cultivate this cardinal virtue, wisdom?

 

Regards

[林愛偉]

Would it be better to start a new thread on this topic?

I'm not sure if this line of inquiry is where Adam wanted to go with this thread...

Nevertheless, I'm enjoying the discussion....

 

To achieve pure awareness, pure experience, nothing can be there (in the mind) to cloud that awareness. This means a complete letting go of all of the conditioning, all of the desire and expectation, all of the comparison.

 

Is this really possible?

 

In my view this is a question that cannot be answered lightly. It is a question that requires enormous energy, persistence, and sincerity and must be explored and experienced first hand. No one can answer this question for another. The answer is meaningless if it comes from outside. It can only come from inside. It's really the question that counts and even that doesn't matter if the individual does not invest enormous energy to answer it for themselves.

 

Once everything is dropped completely and nothing remains to cloud the moment of pure being, who is it that is present in that moment? If someone is present in that moment, then is the moment still pure?

That is the nature of the question - Who Am I?

Who Am I? - once all the conditioning is dropped. Once there is pure experience with no distinction between experience and experiencer. Mind is nothing more than it's total content - memories, desire, fear, thought, attachment.

Once the content is dropped, what is left?

Who is there?

 

 

I believe Adam knows all that we have been discussing. A new thread would have been...well placed

 

 

 

why not properly cultivate this cardinal virtue, wisdom?

 

Regards

 

 

Amitabha!

[林愛偉]

I dont think ill ever have a pure heart in this life Todd, i mean look at the world we live in and our lives at present , sorry i dont mean to be judging anyone but myself i am very far from perfect and im sure many the same. So what does it feel like to have a pure heart, you know what im saying?

 

It must feel awesome to be completely pure and if you do get it does one get enlightened or move to the next realms?

 

cheers

WYG

 

 

Hi Brother,

 

The world is literally a manifestation of one's own mind. Though there are conditions in the world which manifest as unpleasant, unfair, etc, if you regard them as your own experiences, then you too will fall into the mindset of an unpleasant, unfair "existence".

It isn't denial of the conditions of this world, it is simply the acquiring of conditions which result in your mind in the views of what is considered pure.

So, though societies in this world, minds, appear unfair, etc, it is only a literal manifestation of what is in the mind. If you change your views, the world is pure and peaceful. Others may not agree only because of the views they hold of the world.

 

My Shifu of Quan Zhen Dao asked me one day if I would run for president or any political office. I answered no, obviously. She then said to me to put down views of what the governments of this world should be like and not allow their own manifested views move me. After putting those views down, peace was revealed.

She likened the whole trying to change the world perception as "A blade of grass trying to tell the trees how to absorb water and nutrients, how to grow." She said, " The blades of grass have their own ways, and so do the trees. Fundamentally they are of the same source, karmically they revolve in their own mind views."

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[forestofsouls]

If you change your views, the world is pure and peaceful. Others may not agree only because of the views they hold of the world.

 

But how to change your views--- this is the tricky part.

[Starjumper]

I changed my mind. Lin is right, you do need to cultivate wisdom in order to outlive The Fear.

 

A somewhat delicate definition of the word Wisdom is required to make it work that way, it seems, doesn't it?

Edited February 23, 2008 by Starjumper7