Qiway

Free Hua Tuo’s Spontaneous Five Animals Play Qigong  ​(Zi Fa WuQinXi Dong Gong)

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IMPORTANT!

 

After reading this topic lately a number of people have been sending me PMs asking about any risks of Qi deviation for this practice. 

 

They say that they have learned from a number of “Masters” and can’t stop moving/out of control and feel very unwell for a long time. 

 

The question is if this practice will also cause those symptoms? 

 

Feeling unwell and being out of control ARE symptoms of Qi deviation. 

 

Unfortunately some people think it is normal to have these affects whilst moving from one “teacher” to another. 

By the time they ask if your system can cause Qi deviation they already have had it for a long time without even realising!

 

If you are suffering from these symptoms that your movements are out of control, so bad that you can’t cross a road safely and still ask if a system can cause Qi deviation then you need to stop and look within.

Genuine and correctly taught practices don’t cause discomfort, never mind such severe symptoms. 

 

I highly advise that such a person should immediately stop all practices.

DO NOT even attempt this practice.

This practice is NOT a quick fix.

In Clinic I have even seen a simple 8 brocade practice go badly wrong in clients with underlying Qi deviation.

That is the reason to stop all practices. 

 

This practice and many others work great to restore health & vitality but Qi deviation where movements are out of control needs direct intervention.

 

Instead find a good Clinical Qigong Therapist (Wai Qi Liao Fa/外氣療法) or practitioner of Taoist Medicine (Dao Yi 道醫). In severe cases mainstream TCM won’t cut it. 

 

P.S. Before someone jumps in to say “see what openly shared instructions can do”.

 

Those rare cases that have been bought up are due to some “Masters” out there NOT from the written instructions here. 

 

Of all the Qi deviation I have seen in clinic, it is mostly caused by practitioners of genuine systems who decide to teach when they have not trained as a Teacher. Sudden strong transmission of Qi + not being able to correctly energetically align a person = trouble. 

 

Good Teacher or gentle self practice from videos/books/written instructions, equals steady balanced growth. 

 

 

 

Edited by Qiway
Grammar
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For those who cannot afford to pay the fee to learn Spontaneous Five Animal Play but do want to experience spontaneous Qi flow, for whatever reason, I would recommend you buy Sifu Jenny Lamb's qigong DVD and practice her Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong and I assure you that you will very quickly experience to some degree body parts moving on their own due to flow of Qi. Requires just sitting down and holding hands in a certain manner and lifting your heels off the ground. It is that simple and easy to learn and do. Of course, I am not saying that you will have the healing results that you would get from Spontaneous Five Animal Play. I am just saying this is a method for those who want to experience spontaneous Qi flow and movement in a very easy, quick and inexpensive way. I do think that learning any method in the traditional manner that it was meant to be taught is important. There are certain methods that just do not work well when self-taught. 

So my input here is for those who do not wish to try Spontaneous Five Animals Play on their own, but do want to learn a way to have an experience of spontaneous Qi movement. For Jenny Lamb method to work I found out, for me, at least, that I had to have had a full night of sleep or it would not work. And it also did not work at night when I was fatigued. But that might just be because of my make up. For me it did not work every day. It was hit and miss. But once again, that just could be due to my nervous system, energy blocks, etc. Jenny Lamb taught her method to Max who then tweaked it just a tiny bit with the hand position and he renamed the method, Kunlun Method. But one and the same. I say this because I learned from Jenny Lamb's DVD and then later I learned Kun Lun Method directly from Max in a private session. It took about 3 minutes to learn. There is no danger in learning Jenny Lamb or Kun Lun methods. 

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I can vouch for Jenny Lamb’s dvd and years ago she very kindly shared teachings that involved direct contact with Immortal Teachers for absolutely free.  

 

That said the energetics of each spontaneous qigong differ greatly. With moving forms you see the differences visually with spontaneous styles you cannot visually see the difference. 

 

Even Spontaneous Five Animal Play differs greatly. For example the one saved, compiled and readjusted by Liang Shifeng in the 1980s differs greatly to the one taught decades earlier by Hu Yaozhen (1879-1973).  

 

Then there are arts with foundations based in spontaneous qigong (that utilise Stillness, Movement and Spontaneous). So the chi is fired up to specific standards set out by the past Masters. Meaning we don’t settle for sensations such as tingling or warmth, the internal circulation must be so strong that it moves your body.  

 

So in those arts if the meridians in the arms are truly open then as soon as the practitioner enters the Qi State, the arms will immediately start to move on their own as the flow of Qi is that strong.  

 

Once all orbits open naturally then the practitioner may harness the chi to perform classical forms.  

 

I always tell people to go with the one that calls out to them, they will get a feeling or calling.   

Edited by Qiway

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Let's assume that someone with no past experience in chigung enters the forums and while surfing casually hits upon this form.

He/she then gives it a try at home with no guidance. He/She is full of blockages in the meridians from sedentary life/bad diet/no exercise/unresolved stress etc.

 

The 1.000.000 $ question is what will happen next when the energy torrent from Spontaneous form hits the blockages?

 

The question is rhetorical he will get a chi deviation of course...

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10 hours ago, Zork said:

Let's assume that someone with no past experience in chigung enters the forums and while surfing casually hits upon this form.

He/she then gives it a try at home with no guidance. He/She is full of blockages in the meridians from sedentary life/bad diet/no exercise/unresolved stress etc.

 

The 1.000.000 $ question is what will happen next when the energy torrent from Spontaneous form hits the blockages?

 

The question is rhetorical he will get a chi deviation of course...

 

That is your opinion from your experience, below is my opinion as an instructor in that specific art and as a Clinical Qigong Therapist.

 

Or just as in any style of Qigong, the Qi will begin the healing process...

 

Any style in any written/book or video format can cause healing or harm. 

 

Based on the amount of books/videos out there, the harms seems to be pretty low.

 

Personally I have seen more harm in beginners via incorrect practice of martial qigong such as iron palm/body than health/medical qigong. 

 

Overall I have seen more sports based injuries than qigong based injuries. 

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10 minutes ago, Qiway said:

 

That is your opinion from your experience, below is my opinion as an instructor in that specific art and as a Clinical Qigong Therapist.

 

Or just as in any style of Qigong, the Qi will begin the healing process...

 

Any style in any written/book or video format can cause healing or harm. 

 

Based on the amount of books/videos out there, the harms seems to be pretty low.

 

Personally I have seen more harm in beginners via incorrect practice of martial qigong such as iron palm/body than health/medical qigong. 

 

Overall I have seen more sports based injuries than qigong based injuries. 

That is a false analogy. Conventional wounds can be healed by doctors and conventional medicine. Qi deviations are a different beast entirely.

 

Furthermore with the above statements you allow yourself to be open to liability suits by victims of qi deviation steming from these guidelines. You have no warnings or disclaimers in the instructions.

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>Furthermore with the above statements you allow yourself to be open to liability suits by victims of qi deviation steming from these guidelines. You have no warnings or disclaimers in the instructions.

 

Qiway should add a disclaimer and the people giving warnings should move the heck on already. What makes this different from all the other threads where an user shared a practice? -_- Go bother them too lol

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31 minutes ago, Zork said:

That is a false analogy. Conventional wounds can be healed by doctors and conventional medicine. Qi deviations are a different beast entirely.

 

Furthermore with the above statements you allow yourself to be open to liability suits by victims of qi deviation steming from these guidelines. You have no warnings or disclaimers in the instructions.

 

Disclaimer:

“Hu Yaozhen Qi Clinic offers services that belong in the complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) sector. They do not serve as a substitute for a doctor’s medical advice, examination, diagnosis or treatment.”

 

That is the disclaimer used in everything I do and part of my terms and conditions before people commit to anything coming from me. 

 

My website is in the original post but not everyone may see the disclaimer, so thank you for pointing it out. 

 

Now will every thread that contains a shared practice will follow up with a disclaimer? 

 

I have had my share of dealing with Qi deviation and would not put out anything there that from my experience would cause harm. 

Below is my background of my clinical qigong.

 

During the 20th century Master Hu Yaozhen helped coin up the term “Qigong” and “Medical/Clinical Qigong”, and then opened the very first Clinical Qigong Healing Hospital in Beijing, China. Master Hu earned the title “Father of Modern day Qigong” and three generations on Master Hu’s legacy thrives through the work of the Hu Yaozhen Qi Clinic.

 

Regardless of my experience, I always keep a beginners mind and open to answer any concerns raised. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, King Jade said:

Qiway should add a disclaimer and the people giving warnings should move the heck on already. What makes this different from all the other threads where an user shared a practice? -_- Go bother them too lol

Why don't you give it a try then and see for yourself what's wrong with it?

What i wanted to point out is that qiway is legally liable the way everything is presented about this form in this thread.

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7 minutes ago, Qiway said:

 

Disclaimer:

“Hu Yaozhen Qi Clinic offers services that belong in the complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) sector. They do not serve as a substitute for a doctor’s medical advice, examination, diagnosis or treatment.”

 

That is the disclaimer used in everything I do and part of my terms and conditions before people commit to anything coming from me. 

 

My website is in the original post but not everyone may see the disclaimer, so thank you for pointing it out. 

 

Now will every thread that contains a shared practice will follow up with a disclaimer? 

 

I have had my share of dealing with Qi deviation and would not put out anything there that from my experience would cause harm. 

Below is my background of my clinical qigong.

 

During the 20th century Master Hu Yaozhen helped coin up the term “Qigong” and “Medical/Clinical Qigong”, and then opened the very first Clinical Qigong Healing Hospital in Beijing, China. Master Hu earned the title “Father of Modern day Qigong” and three generations on Master Hu’s legacy thrives through the work of the Hu Yaozhen Qi Clinic.

 

Regardless of my experience, I always keep a beginners mind and open to answer any concerns raised. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enough with the diversionary tactics. You mentioned athletes. You should be aware that in martial arts, the teacher present assumes all liability for accidents during class. That also covers coaches.

Now please educate me who assumes liability in the case of a qi deviation from internet instructions?

You guessed it, the author of the instructions...

 

And since you mentioned credentials i happen to be an ISO consultant and in my experience these instructions don't meet any safety standards in the civilized world.

Edited by Zork

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With all due respect to various teachers, lineages, and practitioners...may they all enjoy and benefit from whatever it is they practice...

Last week, in my research, I stumbled across what was probably the original Hua Tuo five animal frolics. It's not spontaneous or a type of qigong. I would have to go back and try to find this text, but I'm pretty sure it was from the 4th century CE.

Just letting people know that in the Chinese culture they often falsely attribute new things to old names, those old names who had nothing to do with the new thing. Practices have been altered throughout history by people who didn't understand them, but merely heard of them. Or perhaps sometimes they try to improve upon a method. Another good example, besides Hua Tuo's five animals, is the "six healing sounds", which were not sounds (or mantra type things) at all, but were originally different types of breathing.

For instance, if in the cold weather you blow on a window and see it fog up, that's a type of breathing which clears heat. If you purse your lips and blow quickly and direct the air toward your skin, it feels like cold air - that's a different type of breathing. These types are some of the original methods, which later people falsely called the six healing sounds.

Hua Tuo's five animals was originally a pretty vigorous physical exercise, which when I read it, was like nothing I had ever seen from the modern qigong marketplace. Hua Tuo apparently recommended to perform it until soaked with sweat. It wasn't a qigong, and wouldn't cause spontaneous movements.

So, do keep in mind that whatever this practice is, it's not Hua Tuo's. Someone else made it into what it is today.

If people ask, maybe I'll make the time to try and find that old passage in the text again, to show what was more likely the original method...and if that happens, it'll take place in another thread so as to not take this one off topic.

Edited by Aetherous
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15 minutes ago, Zork said:

Enough with the diversionary tactics. You mentioned athletes. You should be aware that in martial arts, the teacher present assumes all liability for accidents during class. That also covers coaches.

Now please educate me who assumes liability in the case of a qi deviation from internet instructions?

You guessed it, the author of the instructions...

 

And since you mentioned credentials i happen to be an ISO consultant and in my experience these instructions don't meet any safety standards in the civilized world.

 

The disclaimer is worded as recommended by the NHS (the official medical organisation in the UK) and by my public liability insurance. 

 

That’s how it works for alternative health practitioners (acupuncturists, chiropractors...) in the UK.

We have to use the exact words to comply with legislation and insurance.

 

I am insured as a Clinical Qigong Therapist as my full time profession under UK Law. 

Edited by Qiway
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46 minutes ago, Zork said:

Enough with the diversionary tactics. You mentioned athletes. You should be aware that in martial arts, the teacher present assumes all liability for accidents during class. That also covers coaches.

Now please educate me who assumes liability in the case of a qi deviation from internet instructions?

You guessed it, the author of the instructions...

 

And since you mentioned credentials i happen to be an ISO consultant and in my experience these instructions don't meet any safety standards in the civilized world.

And I wasn’t using diversionary tactics, I was responding to your comment about Qi deviation being a beast by detailing my experience how I tackle such issues and how I wouldn’t put anything out there that would cause such things from my training experience. 

 

Now I’ve answered your issues about legality above. 

 

Anything else? 

Edited by Qiway

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1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

and if that happens, it'll take place in another thread so as to not take this one off topic.

 

Thank you for respectfully offering to start that in another topic.

 

I’m interested. 

Edited by Qiway
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1 hour ago, Qiway said:

 

The disclaimer is worded as recommended by the NHS (the official medical organisation in the UK) and by my public liability insurance. 

 

That’s how it works for alternative health practitioners (acupuncturists, chiropractors...) in the UK.

We have to use the exact words to comply with legislation and insurance.

 

I am insured as a Clinical Qigong Therapist as my full time profession under UK Law. 

The disclaimer only covers your qi clinic where you are physically present. You really should ask a lawyer.

There is obviously no question that you are free to train whoever and however you like when you are physically present.

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1 minute ago, Zork said:

The disclaimer only covers your qi clinic where you are physically present. You really should ask a lawyer.

There is obviously no question that you are free to train whoever and however you like when you are physically present.

 

As a physical and online business, it has already been checked by a lawyer and everything run by insurance.

 

I may have misread the online communication but your tone seems to comes across as interrogation/attack rather than a fellow Tao Bum taking time from their day to genuinely offer legal advise from a place of concern and kindness. 

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I would also like to say that if someone was to be injured from these instructions, I would be more concerned with helping them rather than hide behind a disclaimer.

 

However in this day and age any alternative therapy practitioner must follow strict legislation and that is being followed. 

 

If anyone should be concerned about my legality that would be my insurance and those enforcing government legislation. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Qiway said:

As a physical and online business, it has already been checked by a lawyer and everything run by insurance.

You are still not talking about the issue. I am not questioning your ability to teach via skype online or other media. I am questioning your ability to comprehend the legal dimension of posting forms that can cause qi deviations without any warnings and claiming you have no liability.

 

13 minutes ago, Qiway said:

I may have misread the online communication but your tone seems to comes across as interrogation/attack rather than a fellow Tao Bum taking time from their day to genuinely offer legal advise from a place of concern and kindness. 

I would gladly be proven wrong if you edit your starting post and put a huge warning/disclaimer on the very beginning.

Otherwise the sword cuts both ways....

Edited by Zork

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6 minutes ago, Qiway said:

I would also like to say that if someone was to be injured from these instructions, I would be more concerned with helping them rather than hide behind a disclaimer.

 

However in this day and age any alternative therapy practitioner must follow strict legislation and that is being followed. 

 

If anyone should be concerned about my legality that would be my insurance and those enforcing government legislation. 

 

Posting instructions online isn't covered by any insurance ever.

If you post instructions on how to drive a helicopter and i crash it using your instructions, your insurance or any insurance doesn't cover anything. There are specific clauses by insurance companies to exclude any accident done by any activity not being supervised by a qualified instructor.

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11 minutes ago, Qiway said:

I would also like to say that if someone was to be injured from these instructions, I would be more concerned with helping them rather than hide behind a disclaimer.

This is preposterous. Let people make an informed decision in the first place!

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I have already put up a HUGE warning that people with Qi deviation already should not use this system to fix it. Instead go and see a Clinical Qigong Therapist as any self taught system will make it worse, not just this one.

 

The rest is people telling a teacher how to present their lineage practice based on their experiences from other systems. 

Then people wonder why a lot of well known teachers refuse to participate on this forum.

 

If you really feel the need then maybe you should indiscriminately dig up every single topic with a shared practice posted on this forum and get them to post a disclaimer. Or maybe ask the mods to delete them all if they don’t have a disclaimer instead of picking on just this one. 

 

If the Tao Bums admins or mods come up with a default disclaimer then of course I will adhere to that, but for now this practice is well presented.

 

I’m breaking this cycle of having to constantly repeat myself, no matter whatever new way you come up with to waste my time. 

 

Take up any issues with the mods, I’m sure they would have been on it already if it was an issue or will do.

 

Sincere questions from others welcome 🙏 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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~ ADMIN NOTICE  ~

 

ZORK

 

Please let the topic go it's Way.  You've stated your point but it should not attempt to stop thread discussion.

 

 

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13 hours ago, dawei said:

~ ADMIN NOTICE  ~

 

ZORK

 

Please let the topic go it's Way.  You've stated your point but it should not attempt to stop thread discussion.

 

 

What thread discussion? He has responded to exactly zero of the questions we posed to him.

He isn't answering what i ask him about and all his responses are irrelevant to our subject.

 

His reluctance to post any kind of warning in the first post is suspect at least. I also did not demand anywhere to delete the first post. All i wanted was proper warning to whoever might STUMBLE on this form.

Don't you find it odd that he refuses to post ANY warnings? I have no idea what purposes he has for refusing to do so but whatever it is, it is not for the good of people.

 

I was going to post a last time to recap things but your intervention just infuriated me. As a mod you failed your purpose. Your job is to calm things down, not set fires. A PM would be fine. This intervention wasn't!

Edited by Zork

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On 9/5/2018 at 1:38 AM, Earl Grey said:

but I have already stated my piece about the consequences (and now warn you of karmic ones too) for sharing such a technique for free.

hmmmmm.  interesting discussion.  my only connection to Taoist work comes from ten years in tai chi, (long yang form and chin forms along with mother forms). but that was years ago, left tai chi and did jujitsu for 7 years, discovered the Ki/chi flow connects all forms at some point.  be that as it may.  my own journey of just sitting in meditation shows me that so called "truth' is so simple and profound that most of us miss it. We , by nature try to cover very simple techniques and understandings with secret understandings,  guru's who need to be followed, people to pay, and on and on.  maybe this works for many.  Hopefully folks will get something out of these "secret" techniques.  As the Old Tortoise said in the Taoist story when the Kings guard asked him if he would like the grand honer of being killed, taken to the palace, stuffed, and covered with jewels and worshiped by all,.. he said, "I think I will just lay here in the mud"...  LOL

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