Understanding the rise of China

[Mig]

Just watched this video clip and I am curious to hear your opinion. IMO seems very accurate and nail the differences.

 

 

[dust]

In my experience, the average Han has no real feeling of superiority over the ethnic minorities of China. I might be wrong but the general perception is that it is China that is superior, including its precious 56. Of course there are those who are racist, like there are anywhere, but most laobaixing (average joes) mostly bother with feeling superior to non-Chinese.

 

Otherwise, I tend to agree with him. Certainly it's what I was taught -- China is China. Historical Chinese culture is embedded in the modern culture. Even the dynastic system didn't go anywhere -- just changed its face. And it's true that many in the West don't quite understand.

 

It's a problem, in my opinion. By and large, the Chinese accept their culture without any examination. Culture should be periodically examined and modified. Parts that do not work should be destroyed. But this kind of modification cannot happen in a 'civilization state'. They are bound to the wheel.

Edited December 23, 2016 by dust

[dawei]

Interesting. thanks for sharing the video.

 

Two points I pondered a bit:

1. He talks of 30 year population growth as if that is special... but they had the one child policy for most of that time... so the projections may not be accounting for an increase now that they policy is no longer enforced.

2. He talks of China as 'huge'... it is essentially the same size as the US but with a population 4x more.   They are likely therefore more resource in using land that the US would otherwise not use.   He does touch on this near the end: Too many people and not enough space.

 

I think he's right about the civilized state, diverse, and decentralized and our western concepts cannot be use to understand nor explain their situation completely.    What's interesting is this is juxtaposed with what he calls their 'unity'... so yes, there is a foundation of unity that allows for quite diverse outcomes and methods.

 

I think his comment on 'race' (or cultural identity) is pretty accurate too...  It is almost like asking chinese in the US, what citizenship are you... they will invariably still answer Chinese, even if a US citizen because they just register 'race' in their head.

 

I'm not sure his example of Han superiority was a good one to compare to the two problematic majority groups.  he puts a lot of emphasize on the Han but doesn't mention that not so long ago in the cultural revolution the powers to be essentially forced non-Han to adopt being Han... and even more recently, that they intentionally moved Han people west into non-Han areas... so there is a kind of forced unity and maybe subtle superiority that comes through with that.

 

Maybe his best point was that the west has never seen or known anything like this in history... well... all we had to do was pay attention beyond our own shores if we wanted to...   China's been this way for a very long time and it is maybe time the west paid attention. 

[Mig]

In my experience, the average Han has no real feeling of superiority over the ethnic minorities of China. I might be wrong but the general perception is that it is China that is superior, including its precious 56. Of course there are those who are racist, like there are anywhere, but most laobaixing (average joes) mostly bother with feeling superior to non-Chinese.

 

Otherwise, I tend to agree with him. Certainly it's what I was taught -- China is China. Historical Chinese culture is embedded in the modern culture. Even the dynastic system didn't go anywhere -- just changed its face. And it's true that many in the West don't quite understand.

 

It's a problem, in my opinion. By and large, the Chinese accept their culture without any examination. Culture should be periodically examined and modified. Parts that do not work should be destroyed. But this kind of modification cannot happen in a 'civilization state'. They are bound to the wheel.

Back in the 80's I remember how the media influenced the educated and non educated people in the places I visited, Beijing and Tianjin. I don't think is about superiority but what I felt was proud of their culture. I've seen other cultures and those from third world countries where they lost their identity and replaced it for a hybrid Americanization. Don't need that far from the south border and you will realize it and there are plenty of Youtube video clips for you to see.

You are totally right about the dynastic system, just like the feudal system here, labels have changed. Also, back in the days, I remember seeing pictures the chairman Mao sitting by books as the Zizhi tongjian 資治通鑒 Little we knew at that time and much more we know today. We are living times of truly digital revolution.

Here an interesting interview

 

And here with all we said, how do you think Daoism plays a role and how that influence our view in this forum?

[dust]

I really don't know what role Daoism plays in modern China. Those claiming to be Taoist only make up a very small percentage of the population. Though Taoism is so entwined with Buddhism and everything else, ancestor worship and other folky stuff, so anyone who practices anything "from outside" (Christianity Islam Hinduism Judaism etc) has some element of Taoism in their worship/practice. But I don't think most people have even looked into it.

 

On the surface, in Beijing, I was aware of some popular DDJ quotes, a general awareness among people that Laozi is an important figure in Chinese history, a lot of people practicing taiji, and a lot of folk medicine advice which sometimes might be traced back in some way to some Taoist stuff...so it certainly pervades the culture superficially. But only the occasional person has looked deeper into Daoism and could speak about it beyond Laozi, I think. None of my Chinese friends are Daoist, they don't visit Daoist temples (except maybe as tourists), they don't study any Daoist texts, they don't do qigong, etc.

 

One of the first things I was taught at uni, and one of the first things an older Chinese will mention in any discussion about China, is the role of Confucianism on family and society structure. Filial piety and all that stuff gets tossed around all the time. And in my experience asking people  你信什么？ they're way more likely to say  我信佛  than anything else. I can't speak for all of China, though

Edited December 23, 2016 by dust

[Mig]

I really don't know what role Daoism plays in modern China. Those claiming to be Taoist only make up a very small percentage of the population. Though Taoism is so entwined with Buddhism and everything else, ancestor worship and other folky stuff, so anyone who practices anything "from outside" (Christianity Islam Hinduism Judaism etc) has some element of Taoism in their worship/practice. But I don't think most people have even looked into it.

 

On the surface, in Beijing, I was aware of some popular DDJ quotes, a general awareness among people that Laozi is an important figure in Chinese history, a lot of people practicing taiji, and a lot of folk medicine advice which sometimes might be traced back in some way to some Taoist stuff...so it certainly pervades the culture superficially. But only the occasional person has looked deeper into Daoism and could speak about it beyond Laozi, I think. None of my Chinese friends are Daoist, they don't visit Daoist temples (except maybe as tourists), they don't study any Daoist texts, they don't do qigong, etc.

 

One of the first things I was taught at uni, and one of the first things an older Chinese will mention in any discussion about China, is the role of Confucianism on family and society structure. Filial piety and all that stuff gets tossed around all the time. And in my experience asking people  你信什么？ they're way more likely to say  我信佛  than anything else. I can't speak for all of China, though

Isn't that all religions and philosophies are embedded in every day Chinese language and now even more in their way of life? I had the impression that proverbs and such use philosophical allegories or have religious connotations and we as westerners have difficulties in understanding how to use them in a regular conversation. Also, I though the fact that the 3 religions make part of their lives as being Confucian at work, daoist at home to cultivate their energy and religious believer as believer in faith.

[dust]

Yes, for sure, it is all embedded. From what you've said so far it sounds like you have much experience with China yourself, and I'm sure your impression is quite correct.

 

There are variations on the phrase,

 

以佛治心、以道治身、以儒治世 -- govern the mind with Buddhism, the body with Daoism, the world with Confucianism

 

以儒治国，以道治身，以佛治心 -- govern the state with Confucianism, the body with Daoism, the mind with Buddhism

 

etc

 

Use Buddhism to heal the soul, Daoism to heal the body and direct action (or non-action!), and Confucianism to structure society and the family. Or something like that.

 

The way I have experienced it though.. well, look at Christianity in the UK or some other Western nation. Modern Britain evolved from centuries of Catholicism and Anglicanism, and at this point it's impossible to completely separate and identify ancient religious influence from our modern ethical values and political system and how society has developed etc. But the majority of "native" Britons do not truly believe in Christianity anymore. Many are atheist or agnostic, and even those who claim to be Christian don't usually go to church, most have never read the Bible, etc. So while the UK is informed in many ways by Christian influence, Christianity doesn't actually play a direct role in modern life. Christmas is happening right now, and though I am with family and it's a happy 'festive' time, I don't know anyone younger than 80 who's been to church.

 

In China, with Taoism, the modern role in everyday life is even less. Way fewer Chinese believe/practice Taoism in any form compared to British people believing in Christianity. Taoism has influenced China in many fundamental ways through history, but at this time it's impossible to separate and identify that influence, so we can't say for sure how much is Taoist and how much is other.

 

Same with Buddhism, really -- most people who claim to be Buddhist have not got the first idea what that means, they just go and burn incense at temple sometimes. If you asked them about the Four Noble Truths, I think most would ask you what that is. So how are they using Buddhism to govern the mind, and Daoism for the body, or anything else? They are not, not really.

 

As far as idioms / 'proverbs' in China.. most are learned by rote. I don't think most people are aware of where any of them come from.

[Papayapple]

Can anyone post an interesting documentary of Chinese cultural revolution? or a book maybe?

[dawei]

I really don't know what role Daoism plays in modern China. Those claiming to be Taoist only make up a very small percentage of the population. Though Taoism is so entwined with Buddhism and everything else, ancestor worship and other folky stuff, so anyone who practices anything "from outside" (Christianity Islam Hinduism Judaism etc) has some element of Taoism in their worship/practice. But I don't think most people have even looked into it.

 

 

Yes, for sure, it is all embedded. 

 

As far as idioms / 'proverbs' in China.. most are learned by rote. I don't think most people are aware of where any of them come from.

 

My experience is generally the same as you explain:  Few would know a quote or meaning was from LZ but their quasi-Wuwei of living is a living testament...  and agree with both of you, it is all embedded.

 

I compare it like this:  If a chinese wants to know about the next life, they'll likely visit a Buddhist temple; if they want to know about this life, they will likely go see a Daoist [seer].    IN the former case, they give burnt offerings, etc... while in the latter they can too, they can also do yarrow sticks, or just ask a seer questions.

 

As for proverbs: I think it is a lost art.  My wife can spout off proverbs in the most mundane situations and tie issues together but I don't find anyone else in all my travels who could unless they studied history.   She was lucky to befriend a professor of history at a time her mind was enthralled with learning and they spent some years just talking history.    This is the very, very few indeed.  The rest may play out a proverb without even knowing it. 

[dawei]

Can anyone post an interesting documentary of Chinese cultural revolution? or a book maybe?

 

Here is one I found very interesting as I like biographies, and this covers three generations of daughters:

 

Wild Swans

 

Not to give too much spoiler alert but the author was quite pro-Mao in the cultural revolution and then had a shift away... 

 

I think her husband wrote the other book shown in this link , Mao.  I have not read it.

[dust]

Yes, they both wrote that book on Mao. It's very anti-Mao, which is good. I think all of her books (and her!) are banned in China. I read it some 10 years ago, and Wild Swans way before that, so I don't remember too much, but they're surely both worth checking out with regard to the Cultural Revolution and China in general. And it's worth being aware that they are not dry history books -- they are saturated with feeling, as is to be expected from someone who lived through what she did.

 

Papayapple brings up a good point: one of the major reasons, if not the major reason, Daoism has less of a hold in China today is because of Mao.

Edited December 26, 2016 by dust

[Orion]

This is why political science isn't a real science, anymore than economics is. You can't just hone in on a few golden factors and then proclaim that a country is on the rise. Human social systems are largely unpredictable. China has a lot going for it but it's tied into the same complex interdependent web that all nations are, nations which are, in of themselves, illusory constructs. We all exist within nature, a nature that we still don't really understand, and that's going to call the shots.

 

I lived in China for 2 years and every day I saw 100 things that showed China could become a superpower, along with 100 things that showed China could collapse at any second. Frankly I would not want to see a world run by China. They are too stuck in their status quo traditional lifestyle, even the modern people. The world is already out of time but we don't have anymore time to waste on waiting for another country to rise from feudalism into post-capitalist maturity. The ecological burden is too great.

 

Everyone on this planet is living on a razor's edge and nobody is the wiser. I wrote my undergrad thesis on China and at the time the whole "China rising" thing was cutting edge. Now it seems like an old trope that people keep dishing out without any real understanding of how overwhelmingly complex modern globalism is. Their entire economy is gamed. Their books are a big black box. Their currency is fixed by the state, supported by years of unstable growth. Their environment is teetering on the brink of collapse and no short-term engineering feat can pave over that. People with money and privilege are getting the hell out ASAP because the writing is on the wall. If the economy there collapses there won't be uncontaminated land and water to run to for support. The U.S. is in an identical position.

 

China is rising, OK -- but to where? Nobody is talking about the end game of consumer global capitalism. Nobody. Everyone is acting like this shit show is just going to continue indefinitely. The world's ecology is likely beyond the pale. China, like every other blind capitalist state, is rising to its own oblivion. Economists are too infatuated with their short-term models to see it.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Orion

[dawei]

Yes, they both wrote that book on Mao. It's very anti-Mao, which is good. I think all of her books (and her!) are banned in China. I read it some 10 years ago, and Wild Swans way before that, so I don't remember too much, but they're surely both worth checking out with regard to the Cultural Revolution and China in general. And it's worth being aware that they are not dry history books -- they are saturated with feeling, as is to be expected from someone who lived through what she did.

 

Papayapple brings up a good point: one of the major reasons, if not the major reason, Daoism has less of a hold in China today is because of Mao.

 

Mao looked at the Qin legalism as a little brother...   and then Daoism rebounded after Qin.... after Mao.. it is more like a river flowing   

[C T]

China is seriously considering granting residency (even citizenship) to all Chinese who weren't born in China. 

 

There's approximately 600 million Chinese non-nationals across the globe, a significant number of whom are loyalists.  

 

If this were to materialise, she will be one step closer to world dominance.  

[dust]

This is why political science isn't a real science, anymore than economics is. You can't just hone in on a few golden factors and then proclaim that a country is on the rise. Human social systems are largely unpredictable. China has a lot going for it but it's tied into the same complex interdependent web that all nations are, nations which are, in of themselves, illusory constructs. We all exist within nature, a nature that we still don't really understand, and that's going to call the shots.

 

The OP video is a decent summary of what China looks like now, with some points to note that most Westerners almost certainly aren't aware of. It's not a thorough explanation of why China is destined to take over the world because, as you say, nobody can predict that.

 

Then again, what the video and our own observations tell us is that China has already started to take over -- it's not something that could happen, but that has been happening for a while. Whether or not that continues is a different matter...

 

 

China is rising, OK -- but to where? Nobody is talking about the end game of consumer global capitalism. Nobody. Everyone is acting like this shit show is just going to continue indefinitely. The world's ecology is likely beyond the pale. China, like every other blind capitalist state, is rising to its own oblivion. Economists are too infatuated with their short-term models to see it.

 

Yeah. Maybe. The whole concept of economy might change over the next few decades. I have some hope that I'll live out my end days in an automated world, where robots have figured out how to fix all our environmental and social problems...

Edited December 27, 2016 by dust