So how does reincarnation work in Taoist theory?

[Michael Sternbach]

I should stay with mathematics and meditation....

 

Whenever I start working with religions and their doctrines, I am put in a place where I am made to use words and categories which relate to things outside of my experience. Sometimes I can obliquely access the ideas through the periphery of my current experiences. Most of the time, though, I am made to either deal with ontologically unique things (and no abstract systems can supply relevant information---as abstract systems can only trace outlines of things and project onto different tokens of an acceptable type) or I am made to use pre-existing self-consistent systems. And, unfortunately, many pre-existing and self-consistent systems are not bare-bones constructions; quite often there are overloaded operators and/or operands in the system.

 

And, given the remoteness from direct experience, I can't always discern what is overloaded and what is simply outside of my range of experience.....

 

Reading this post overloaded me a little...

[Michael Sternbach]

Haha....

 

It is me expressing my frustration because I probably gave too much attention and credit to the judaeo-christian writers. And yet, despite that, I still don't feel completely justified throwing them away when dealing with issues of the afterlife.

 

I believe that all the great metaphysical traditions have glimpsed an aspect of the truth; each holds at least a piece of the jigsaw.

 

Being a Hermeticist, I am also a strong believer in analogies. Thus, in my book, the life cycle of an individual can be likened to the life cycle of the whole Universe.

 

And regarding the latter, the theory that impressed me most so far is Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC), a brainchild of the famous physicist Roger Penrose. In a nutshell, it postulates that after a mind boggling number of years (something like 10¹⁰⁰), all the protons in our Universe will have decayed, the black holes will have evaporated etc, so there will be nothing left but light (or EM energy). Time and space will lose any meaning in such a Universe; they can also be modelled as at once infinitely expanded and contracted to a point. And the latter is nothing other than a singularity. It bangs and, voilà - a new Universe begins (or a new Aeon in a continuing story).

 

Now that's pure metaphysics for you. Penrose & Co. actually nodded when, on a congress I attended, I dared to mention parallels between CCC and mystical systems like Hinduism and the Kabbalah - while at the same time they emphasized that such considerations are beyond the scope of (their) science (what a surprise).

 

Now applied to the question at hand, you have at the end of an incarnation (be it of a Universe or a human being) both:

 

• A state of timelessness/eternity, a return to the Mind of God as it were (as assumed in the Judaeo-Christian tradition).
• A return to a new physical existence (as suggested in Hinduism and Buddhism).

I should also mention that gravity waves generated by the collision of black holes etc in a Universe nearing its end - despite its eventual complete annihilation and return to the state of infinite light (the "opening of Shiva's eye" ) - will "inform" the structuring of the matter in its subsequrent incarnation. So here's your karma...

 

I am not saying that Penrose's cosmological model is all inclusive and provides all the answers, but I find it inspiring, to say the least.

 

Thoughts?

[Michael Sternbach]

I would say that science is just not advanced enough to keep up with metaphysics. But this doesn't need to keep us from applying or creating scientific models regarding metaphysical perceptions, as long as we remember that they are models - not everlasting perfect explanations. Surely, we must be careful not to let our ideas obscure our view of living reality. The search for truth is an open-ended endeavour.

[Marblehead]

I would say that science is just not advanced enough to keep up with metaphysics.

Isn't that great?!?!?

 

I experience enough anxiety talking with Brian when he goes quantum on me.

[Giacomond]

A google search lead me to this site and thread. ANyone have a copy of this you want to sell?

 

https://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9780231031479

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Giacomond said:

A google search lead me to this site and thread. ANyone have a copy of this you want to sell?

 

https://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9780231031479

 

 

i just donated my hardcover copy (yes the 1968 edition) to the library two days ago.  I am seeing copies available on Amazon, both used ($45) and new ($89).  I paid $70 for my used copy two years ago.

Edited August 24 by BigSkyDiamond

[Gerard]

My insight on this highly complex subject:

 

The Shen (mind, spirit)  is the root force. The rest is a dynamic change resulting from interaction of Yin & Yang forces which are merely a projection of the Shen.

 

Taoism doesn't care about reincarnation. You are always present, materially now, in non-physical form later, constantly evolving.

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

1 hour ago, Gerard said:

My insight on this highly complex subject:

The Shen (mind, spirit)  is the root force. The rest is a dynamic change resulting from interaction of Yin & Yang forces which are merely a projection of the Shen.

Taoism doesn't care about reincarnation. You are always present, materially now, in non-physical form later, constantly evolving.

 

regarding bold above,
the Dao is unchanging.

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, Gerard said:

Taoism doesn't care about reincarnation. You are always present, materially now, in non-physical form later, constantly evolving.

 

 

Does constantly evolving have a purpose?

 

 

[stirling]

46 minutes ago, Lairg said:

Does constantly evolving have a purpose?

 

Purpose is a story the mind tells based on the delusion that there are separate things and people. 

 

When the mind is still and quiet, ask yourself where your separate "self" is.

[Lairg]

So the Dao has no purpose in forcing reincarnation of human spirits into a physical form?

Edited August 25 by Lairg

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Lairg said:

So the Dao has no purpose in forcing reincarnation of human spirits into a physical form?

 

Lairg, are you a meditator? I ask this because meditation is the optimal environment for seeing the underlying fabric of reality.

[Lairg]

I meditate twice daily and have a range of experiences.

 

So why does the Dao force spirits to incarnate as humans?   I certainly objected to this incarnation.  I said:  It is not my turn!

 

Are humans part of a grand plan?

 

 

[stirling]

So, the meditation I would recommend for this wouldn't be a particular technique, but rather just allowing the mind to come to a stop... stillness... brief periods where there are no thoughts and just experiencing, even if only for moments at a time. Is this something you have familiarity with? 

 

Speaking for myself, I was constantly seeking meaning and purpose, and better still some sort of tangible master plan that gave the "universe" order. I KNEW there was something to be understood. I collected theories from Eastern religion, Magick, Science and more, tied together the multiplicity of synchronicities I experienced, and tried to bridge them into something cohesive, but I was never satisfied with it fully. It never allowed me to completely relax. I never believed it... and this is the problem. A belief is never reality. We concoct beliefs when we don't truly KNOW.

 

Quote

"he trouble with students these days is that they seize on words and form their understanding on that basis. In a big notebook they copy down the sayings of some worthless old fellow, wrapping it up in three layers, five layers of carrying cloth, not letting anyone else see it, calling it the 'Dark Meaning' and guarding it as something precious. What a mistake! Blind fools, what sort of juice do they expect to get out of old dried bones?"- Lin-Chi, Ch'an Master, 7th Ct.

 

As it turns out, there IS something, but it is the opposite of what our time, space, "I" belief system convinces us is real. It is literally beyond belief. It is experiential knowledge can't be forgotten, and never leaves you, once seen. It obliterates all stories about how things are, always bringing us back to the moment we occupy... THIS moment.

 

Ultimately nothing really incarnates, except as a concept of the mind. There is no underlying time-based plan for... anything. Once it is seen and understood, the world appears the same, but it is without an "I" at the center, is always happening NOW, and is without space, indivisible, and intimately contiguous. This last paragraph is really just a kludge, it could be expressed (and has) in many ways, all of which are compatible. How things are really just has to be seen experientially... cannot be conveyed in language. 

[BigSkyDiamond]

A.

incarnation is never forced.  It is always a choice (though not at the "personality" level).

and if someone no longer believes in reincarnation, then it is a non-issue.

 

 

B.

if an adult feels they are "forced" into anything then that is something to look at.  who or what is forcing you to do that?  is it duty, obligation, responsibility, to maintain an image, to gain attention, to prove something, to earn something.

 

and if a person feels forced, and they don't do it......then what happens?  "if i don't do __________, then this will happen ____________ "

who or what has the adult given their authority over to, and why?  

those are the questions that arise when hearing an adult say that they are "forced" into doing something.

 

 

C.

and if someone holds beliefs in a system of "karma" or feels bound by soul "contracts" then that belief system may also be something to look at, evaluate, and decide whether it is worth keeping and dragging along and being bound by.  At any time you are free to nullify, break, and dissolve any and all old contracts from any lifetime.  You are not bound by them.

 

 

D.

a powerful intention to set things in motion is "I release that which no longer serves me."  Belief systems may feel great and serve us well.....until they don't anymore.  When we recognize they imprison us (rather than freeing us), then it's time to jettison them.  Like an old pair of shoes that now binds and pinches, we discard them.

 

Edited August 25 by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, BigSkyDiamond said:

incarnation is never forced.  It is always a choice (though not at the "personality" level).

 

I took one for the team

 

But it may be that "always" needs a context.   

 

For example, when a universe is created/deleted, how much consultation is there of the  trillion trillion trillion soul-bearing entities involved?

 

I try to avoid concepts such as always and never

 

 

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

39 minutes ago, Lairg said:

I took one for the team

= a choice made by you

 

 

Edited August 26 by BigSkyDiamond

[Lairg]

It was a passive acceptance - almost a choice

 

 

[BigSkyDiamond]

and if "forced" by the team

why allow that?    what is the motivation or reward for it?  what are they holding over you?  what gives "the team" power over you?

 

Edited August 26 by BigSkyDiamond