To begin my journey

[Marblehead]

Yes, all journeys start from the beginning.

[Geof Nanto]

Just don't let the mind negate reality.

 

When it comes to the question of what is reality I’d prefer to say I do not know. That doesn’t mean I’m not interested but rather it allows me some measure of open mindedness.

 

For an overview of ‘reality’ see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

 

Zhuang Zhou wisely realised, “Your life has a limit but knowledge has none. If you use what is limited to pursue what has no  limit, you will be in danger. If you understand this and still strive for knowledge, you will be in danger for certain! “

 

To my mind it's a great loss of potential wisdom that materialists fail to acknowledge the multifaceted relevance of religion for what it tells us about our contemporary selves - in this case the focus is on our human need for the certainty of belief in what is real. For me, our conceptual reality is an ever evolving web of myths created to fill the needs of our human psyche for meaning. At the core of our consciousness we are mythical beings;  hence philosopher John Gray suggests the best a thinking person can do is to recognize the myths he or she cannot live without.  (Or perhaps, more modestly, I can only expect to recognise myths I can live without. By necessity those myths I truly depend on must remain hidden beyond the fringes of my awareness. )

 

Although holding to any one religion or philosophy creates the feeling of certainty, for Zhuang Zhou this was all illusion. His message is that all human truths are relative and the only way to transcend such relativity was to cultivate one’s life to achieve harmony with the great mystery called Dao. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

Okay.  Well said but I will still question everything and form my own opinions and understandings.  Oh, I don't expect to find all the answers.  I have said before, oftentimes the questions are more important than the answers.

 

I don't need religions or myths in order to have contentment.  Others may need them in order to answer questions they cannot find any other answer for.

 

Yes, holding to either religion or myth can prevent finding a better answer for their questions.

 

Well, sure, since everything is in flux certainties last only so long before things change.  That's why we need remain flexible.  But this can be learned without either religion or myths.

 

And yes, subjective truth is relative.  I won't talk about objective truths because they change so even they are relative in space/time.

[Stosh]

Sir Rodger, looked at the bounty set upon the table and wondered, Will the Kings plate ever be empty?

[thelerner]

I think I have said "I don't know" a couple of times on this forum.  (Not many though.)

I don't know if I've ever said it here.

maybe one day.

 

DAO = Reality,

yet its.. kinda living,

going through phases,

give it respect and attention

 

 

addon> In the book The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up  which unexpectedly made best seller lists for months, has at its heart an amazing viewpoint of showing great respect to inanimate objects.  Creating a home where everything; every object in it is loved.  Even lowly socks must not be carelessly tossed or rolled but folded in a way that honors them.  

 

There something about that approach that seems the bright side of Taoism.  That reverence.

Edited April 7, 2016 by thelerner

[Geof Nanto]

"Confucian by day; Daoist by night".   

 

I like that. I could also say realist by day, mystery by night. Where I live is surrounded by forest and remote from other human habitation. The nights have a profound stillness, a 'silence' pregnant with ineffable meaning. I consider the nights here as sacred. I rarely engage in electronic media and never any noisy activity. I regularly read mythopoeic stories though. It's a time favourable for nurturing dreaming and phantasy.

 

 

These comments are all daytime angst. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I do admit to feeling some angst when engaging with the occasional combative member on Dao Bums. (Fortunately they're few and no one on this topic - as yet!.)  I try to use these aggressively adversarial encounters as part of my personal cultivation - but they bring me no joy.  

[steve]

I think I have said "I don't know" a couple of times on this forum.  (Not many though.)

 

I've said it here a lot ...I hope...

[Marblehead]

Even lowly socks must not be carelessly tossed or rolled but folded in a way that honors them.  

Funny.  I still do that.  Neatly folded and arranged between dress socks and work socks.

[dawei]

I like that. I could also say realist by day, mystery by night. Where I live is surrounded by forest and remote from other human habitation. The nights have a profound stillness, a 'silence' pregnant with ineffable meaning. I consider the nights here as sacred. I rarely engage in electronic media and never any noisy activity. I regularly read mythopoeic stories though. It's a time favourable for nurturing dreaming and phantasy.

 

 

dawei, on 05 Apr 2016 - 21:45, said:

These comments are all daytime angst. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I do admit to feeling some angst when engaging with the occasional combative member on Dao Bums. (Fortunately they're few and no one on this topic - as yet!.)

 

daytime angst... Confucian by day...  ergo, the Confucian angst in us...  our daytime busyness if you will.

 

Me personally... I have found two things help with what you describe:

1. Walk away from it.  Some will say you are not facing the issues or debate or whatever it is going on... but the fact is, we are not always looking to debate. Sometimes we just want to talk but the talk turns in directions we're not interested in pursuing but in the pursue of getting our point across, we find ourselves lock-step in a debate.   

 

I will admit, there are a few folks here which I don't want to engage in any discussion mostly because I'll lose in the debate.  I can't out debate them.  And as it is not a debate in the first place for me, I just walk away from it.   

 

But I should add that I respect anyone has their opinion and method of communication but I just don't want to engage some of it.  I have found that I have strong differences with some and yet we can talk.   Because it seems that both sides are not about debating but sharing thoughts.  

 

2. See everyone as an unfolding.  Each has their own path and destiny and we should respect that and not hold them back.  LZ talks of nurturing the arising.  I think we need to understand that better.  Sometimes we can engage and help; and other times we don't need to engage and that helps.  Why the latter?   If the latter engagement causes angst, then it is not really helping.  Some might want to say we need to stand up for a side and call it tough love.  Sure, go for it, if that is your path and destiny.  But I think of Mike Tyson's quote, "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth".    

 

3. Find your path/destiny and stay true to it.  The two above are mine... insert your own 

 

 

 I try to use these aggressively adversarial encounters as part of my personal cultivation - but they bring me no joy.  

 

Why do it?  That is part of my point... what you call 'cultivation' seems to just be more daytime angst issues to me...  I have never used the word 'cultivation' and for many years, I had no clue what folks meant by it.  I just followed what I wanted to do as the red carpet was always unfolding and I just went along a path...  Later I found that what most people seem to call 'cultivation' sounds like really hard work and angst.   I was glad that was not my path... but as many do, I respect they go their path as they see fit.

 

When you look at a bird.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and joy?

 

When you look at a tiger.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and fear? 

 

You have a tremendous natural side.  I think 'cultivation' is coming from somewhere outside of you on some level.   Not sure where I'm going with that, so I'll just stop

[dust]

All I know from experience is that this Tao is a place that has everything that will exist, could exist, or will never exist inside of it. It is like an imaginary cardboard box that is small on the outside and our entire universe fits inside.

 

 

I'd say... it is everything you've said, and more. And... it is nothing that you've said.

 

Really, it's not even an 'it'. 'It' isn't there -- or here -- or anywhere. But you are 'it', so it must be where you are.

Edited April 7, 2016 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

When you look at a bird.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and joy?

 

When you look at a tiger.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and fear? 

 

You have a tremendous natural side.  I think 'cultivation' is coming from somewhere outside of you on some level.   Not sure where I'm going with that, so I'll just stop

Yeah, good thing you stopped because the tiger was about to pounce.

[Geof Nanto]

 

dawei, on 05 Apr 2016 - 21:45, said:

 

 

daytime angst... Confucian by day...  ergo, the Confucian angst in us...  our daytime busyness if you will.

 

Me personally... I have found two things help with what you describe:

1. Walk away from it.  Some will say you are not facing the issues or debate or whatever it is going on... but the fact is, we are not always looking to debate. Sometimes we just want to talk but the talk turns in directions we're not interested in pursuing but in the pursue of getting our point across, we find ourselves lock-step in a debate.   

 

I will admit, there are a few folks here which I don't want to engage in any discussion mostly because I'll lose in the debate.  I can't out debate them.  And as it is not a debate in the first place for me, I just walk away from it.   

 

But I should add that I respect anyone has their opinion and method of communication but I just don't want to engage some of it.  I have found that I have strong differences with some and yet we can talk.   Because it seems that both sides are not about debating but sharing thoughts.  

 

2. See everyone as an unfolding.  Each has their own path and destiny and we should respect that and not hold them back.  LZ talks of nurturing the arising.  I think we need to understand that better.  Sometimes we can engage and help; and other times we don't need to engage and that helps.  Why the latter?   If the latter engagement causes angst, then it is not really helping.  Some might want to say we need to stand up for a side and call it tough love.  Sure, go for it, if that is your path and destiny.  But I think of Mike Tyson's quote, "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth".    

 

3. Find your path/destiny and stay true to it.  The two above are mine... insert your own 

 

These are good insights. What you’re expressing here are aspects of what I’d call your personal cultivation.  I use the term ‘cultivation’ because for me it implies working with the energies of nature. It’s definitely not about forcing anything -  quite the opposite. It’s another way of expressing my exploration of what it means for me to seek harmony with the ebb and flow of Dao. For me the ultimate cultivator is the great Dao and I find her expression strongest in natural wilderness. Cultivation is about gaining insights into what is blocking me from my fullest potential as a unique expression of Dao. 

 

 

Why do it?  That is part of my point... what you call 'cultivation' seems to just be more daytime angst issues to me...  I have never used the word 'cultivation' and for many years, I had no clue what folks meant by it.  I just followed what I wanted to do as the red carpet was always unfolding and I just went along a path...  Later I found that what most people seem to call 'cultivation' sounds like really hard work and angst.   I was glad that was not my path... but as many do, I respect they go their path as they see fit.

 

When you look at a bird.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and joy?

 

When you look at a tiger.. do you feel threatened?  Or admiration and fear? 

 

You have a tremendous natural side.  I think 'cultivation' is coming from somewhere outside of you on some level.   Not sure where I'm going with that, so I'll just stop

 

I sincerely thank you for your interest in my wellbeing, but it’s a tad annoying that you’re projecting all sorts of images onto me that simply do not apply. Hopefully my above comment makes it clear we actually have the same attitude towards forcing things towards a specific outcome. I’m 62 years old and have explored my life to the outer limits of both death (through heroin addiction) and ecstasy (through spiritual experience).  It’s my nature to work through things by following my desires. I follow what’s easy and often I’ve learnt that difficult work is actually the only (and therefore the easiest) option other than dissipating on a downward spiral into death.  Thankfully I've found a level of contentment such as I've never experienced before with the simplicity of a lifestyle grounded in nature.  

Edited April 7, 2016 by Yueya

[dawei]

I sincerely thank you for your interest in my wellbeing, but it’s a tad annoying that you’re projecting all sorts of images onto me that simply do not apply. Hopefully my above comment makes it clear we actually have the same attitude towards forcing things towards a specific outcome. 

 

Mostly, likely semantics... I don't like terms like cultivation and I mis-spoke in response.   But I know we have the same attitude about many things and our past posts show that.  

[Geof Nanto]

Mostly, likely semantics... I don't like terms like cultivation and I mis-spoke in response.   But I know we have the same attitude about many things and our past posts show that.  

 

I don’t like the term ‘cultivation’ either when it suggests this…..

 

 

I'd call this the Confucian approach to cultivation. It has its place but my heart prefers wilderness.

 

One of my greatest teachings for what I call personal cultivation has come from working on forest regeneration projects over many years here where I live…….

 

 

By removing the invasive weed monocultures, the forest regenerates ‘self-so’ over time when left to its own complex processes.  Similarly, us humans can allow our own innate natures to unfold ‘self-so’ by skilfully removing blockages. It requires initial work but as greater harmony with Dao is achieved the process becomes more and more effortless.   

[Marblehead]

 

I don’t like the term ‘cultivation’ either when it suggests this…..

 

Now that's what I call cultivation.

[Geof Nanto]

Now that's what I call cultivation.

 

Hey! I thought you were an anarchist. A garden like that is centrally planned and requires ongoing government to maintain it. It's wilderness that displays anarchy. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

Hey! I thought you were an anarchist. A garden like that is centrally planned and requires ongoing government to maintain it. It's wilderness that displays anarchy. 

If you look hard you will find other contradictions in my life too.

[Geof Nanto]

If you look hard you will find other contradictions in my life too.

 

Yes, I suspect we all have many contradictions. I know I do. For me the Enlightenment vision of humans as unified, rational beings is far-fetched. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Yueya

[Stosh]

Well, surprisingly, I am NOT an anarchist,,,,theres another word,,, I guess,,, But I really like when the cultivation doesnt overwhelm , but rather compliments the natural grace of growing things.

[Marblehead]

Oh, please, you dualists!  Stop.  Just appreciate each in their own light.

[Geof Nanto]

Oh no! Not another duel about dualism. (When it comes to 'duelism' I've noticed you're far from shy.)  I’ll stick with Leonard Cohen’s,

 

Though it all may be one in the higher eye

Down here where we live it is two

Edited April 9, 2016 by Yueya