Thunder Path

[KoHsuan]

Jakara,

Two year ago I had absolutely the same dilemma ... and it takes a lot of courage to admit to yourself that doing most of daoist alchemy practices, tai chi, most of chi gung etc. WITHOUT teacher is just improving one's health if you are lucky and playing with one's ego.

 

So honestly what system says do this and that by yourself and you will reach dao for sure or 87% in your 70ies?

 

None.. but there are some that you MAY HAVE A CHANCE... and yogas of Naropa one of them.. and I know people who gained some siddhi doing it..

[Adam West]

Adam,

 

Were you following a specific tradition or technique? How long did it take you?

 

LP

 

Hi LP,

 

I was working with and still do, to some degree Dzogchen Tregchod; which is a form of stillness-emptiness meditation.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Adam West]

adam, have you done that 2-3 week instant liberation thing off of samadhiheritage.org? if so, how was it?

 

Hi Mantis,

 

No, unfortunately I haven't done it. I am Australian, so I don't live locally to the US; if I did, however, I most certainly would take the time off work to do it. I am convinced that a year of ten hours a day in meditation would result in enlightenment. Just 2 to 3 weeks would likely result in some very profound stuff. One should be careful, though, there is much documentation of people have psychotic breaks as a result of large doses of intense meditation. I think though, it very much depends on the meditation technique and underlying predispositions to mental illness. There have been a lot of cases of mental illness following from those practicing intense insight meditation on the 10 day Goenka retreats; however, I think that particular method is psychologically agitating and therefore, may be predisposed to triggering probable psychotic episodes. Other the other hand, I have no such concerns with emptiness-stillness meditation, with all things being equal. In fact, my experience is one of profound bliss, joy, serenity and equilibrium. And flashes of Rigpa or the natural state (Buddha Mind, Original Mind, Zen Mind, The Tao etc.). I would like to get around to further exploring the theories one of these days.

 

I personally know someone who did a one year retreat in his home and just sat and meditated on his couch non-stop. When he was tired, he slept, and when he was hungry he ate; and so on. He is now, in my view, what you would call enlightened - permanently unified in realisation of the Tao or Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In case you are wondering, he used mantra yoga at the brow chakra as his method. I formerly used the same method with profound results, resulting in being established in a similar, but much lower state when I was practicing several hours a day. A complete transformation of consciousness. I later became more worldly, and practiced less, and lost the state of Samadhi. In my view, it's really all about practice, practice, practice. Of course, some methods are more efficient than others, but then, you just need to find what works for you. Often one modifies any particular method to suit oneself completely without intension, it just evolves through practice. But you won't know unless you spend the hours on the cushion. And if it is working, it is not a drag or a chore at all, that is one of the signs. If it helps us to access higher consciousness, then it is working; and accessing higher consciousness is THE most amazing and enjoyable thing there is. However, that does not mean turning away from the world, rather there is a drive to bring higher consciousness into the world - at least that is how it seems to me.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Pero]

Hi LP,

 

I was working with and still do, to some degree Dzogchen Tregchod; which is a form of stillness-emptiness meditation.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

Which is something you can`t really do if you don`t have a dzogchen teacher.

[rex]

The tantric buddhists owe their lineage to the original buddha, who did not discriminate.

Yes this a source of controversy between different Buddhisms. The Tantric Buddhists hold that Buddha taught tantric methods to humans and non-humans as Cakrasamvara. Of course some Buddhisms don't even recognise Tantric Buddhism as being authentic Buddhism.

 

Apparently only the special or elite class of people are aloud access to these techniques? I find that hard to believe. If these techniques were intended for the good of humanity then all humanity should be able to practice them unhindered.

The Tantric teachings are open to anyone who has the aspiration, karma, merit and natural affinity with the altrusitic wish for enlightenment. There's plenty of public opportunities to get initiation. It's not just a question of being taught some psycho-somatic techniques, it's also a question of relationship, trust and mutual committment.

[Adam West]

[Jakara]

Its annoying how politics and human concerns can get in the way of the teachings and the access to them. The dalai lama is visiting England next year and giving a Vajrayana empowerment/initiation along with lectures. I have tickets for it anyway so may end up with some sort of empowerment. Im not sure what it does though.

 

Hmmm, so what about experiences that are so similar to another that you wouldnt need the original. For example, I was under the guidance of wu-wei daoist teacher for a while, the teachings are so similar to dzogchen that one could easily practice the dzogchen methods even though technically he is not a dzogchen teacher. The tibetan lineage is not required here, his lineage is completely chinese daoist but because the dzogchen teachings are almost identical, the system under his guidance is completely accessible.

 

Im sure many of us on here practice or have some experience with the martial arts, and would agree that after a few years of practice we no longer require as much attention from our teacher. When we are taught new sets we dont need them explaining so much because a sort of understanding has developed over the years and we can already see how it works. So with an excellent foundation in one style, one can easily look at another style of martial arts and see how it works. It would take me a minimal amount of time to learn a new style compared to a beginner simply because of the previous experience.

 

I have had Qigong, Dao Yin and non-dualistic meditation teachings from daoist preists on retreats on many occasions, and have a good feel for how they work. So having this experience, can one not simply apply the previous experience to something like the six yogas of naropa with a decent amount of success given that they are similar? Could such experience mean that empowerments, although beneficial, may not be required if we already have a good understanding?

[Pero]

[joeblast]

Pero, words are just words...you all too often seem to be splitting hairs with respect to people's responses.

Just an observation.

[Pero]

Hmmm, so what about experiences that are so similar to another that you wouldnt need the original. For example, I was under the guidance of wu-wei daoist teacher for a while, the teachings are so similar to dzogchen that one could easily practice the dzogchen methods even though technically he is not a dzogchen teacher. The tibetan lineage is not required here, his lineage is completely chinese daoist but because the dzogchen teachings are almost identical, the system under his guidance is completely accessible.

 

Then practice that, but don`t call it dzogchen.

 

I have had Qigong, Dao Yin and non-dualistic meditation teachings from daoist preists on retreats on many occasions, and have a good feel for how they work. So having this experience, can one not simply apply the previous experience to something like the six yogas of naropa with a decent amount of success given that they are similar? Could such experience mean that empowerments, although beneficial, may not be required if we already have a good understanding?

 

I really don`t understand you guys. If you have some kind of teaching that is supposed to be similar to 6 yogas, why do you feel the need to practice the 6 yogas themselves? Are you not satisfied?

 

Pero, words are just words...you all too often seem to be splitting hairs with respect to people's responses.

Just an observation.

 

Possibly.

I don`t think I`m splitting hairs though. Saying that one doesn`t need a teacher to follow dzogchen is not a small difference from saying that one does need a teacher.

 

How do you guys even know the word Dzogchen? You read it somewhere. And that was probably written by a master. And every master will tell you, that you can`t practice dzogchen without the teacher.

[Jakara]

Then practice that, but don`t call it dzogchen.

I really don`t understand you guys. If you have some kind of teaching that is supposed to be similar to 6 yogas, why do you feel the need to practice the 6 yogas themselves? Are you not satisfied?

 

 

I am simply stating that the practices exist and they do not require initiation, I however do not have access to those teachings - the daoists can be very secretive! But the 6 yogas are in plain sight for everyone to see, there are books on them - but they require initiations. So this is why I ask do we need initiation. The six yogas is a complete proven system with excellent accessibility, the initiation is the only draw back.

 

There are a lot of people who think wu-wei daoism (think dao de jing) and dzogchen have the same source, it isn't unthinkable given the silk road and the constant interaction between the tibetans and the chinese - and the indians for that matter.

 

I recall one of the first parts of the dao de jing as saying names that are named are not true names (ming ke ming, fei chang ming) which means naming things brings them out of non-dualistic reality and into the dualistic reality. Saying that dzogchen is not dzogchen without the proper lineage is simply not correct. If the practices are practiced and the same results obtained then it is the same, regardless of lineage. Dzogchen means the natural primordial non-dualistic state, how can any lineage or dogma have anything to do with that? Its a contradiction in terms.

 

Lineage is important to establish the frauds from the orthodox practitioners, but it doesnt gurantee anything. What happened before the organization of these religions? Where the same standardized initiations still given then? I doubt it. Initiations seem a largely ritual aspect of a tradition, something that only seems required in traditions with a shamanistic history. The shaman had a student who had to be initiated. Perhaps this has propagated into the modern practices? Bon, Daoism and Hinduism all have shamanistic roots. Tibetan buddhism obviously has huge influences from Bon.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Jakara

[Pero]

I am simply stating that the practices exist and they do not require initiation, I however do not have access to those teachings - the daoists can be very secretive! But the 6 yogas are in plain sight for everyone to see, there are books on them - but they require initiations. So this is why I ask do we need initiation. The six yogas is a complete proven system with excellent accessibility, the initiation is the only draw back.

 

The daoist require transmission too. The initiation a draw back? ...

 

There are a lot of people who think wu-wei daoism (think dao de jing) and dzogchen have the same source, it isn't unthinkable given the silk road and the constant interaction between the tibetans and the chinese - and the indians for that matter.

 

Possibly, but again, go practice that if you think it doesn`t require transmission.

 

Saying that dzogchen is not dzogchen without the proper lineage is simply not correct. If the practices are practiced and the same results obtained then it is the same, regardless of lineage. Dzogchen means the natural primordial non-dualistic state, how can any lineage or dogma have anything to do with that? Its a contradiction in terms.

 

Dzogchen is always Dzogchen no matter how you call it. But you can`t know what it is without a teacher. No contradiction. You can say that this is according to Dzogchen teaching, which is fine. But then, if you don`t agree and do otherwise, don`t call it Dzogchen.

 

Lineage is important to establish the frauds from the orthodox practitioners, but it doesnt gurantee anything. What happened before the organization of these religions? Where the same standardized initiations still given then? I doubt it. Initiations seem a largely ritual aspect of a tradition, something that only seems required in traditions with a shamanistic history. The shaman had a student who had to be initiated. Perhaps this has propagated into the modern practices? Bon, Daoism and Hinduism all have shamanistic roots. Tibetan buddhism obviously has huge influences from Bon.

 

"Initiations" were always given, though perhaps not in the way they are now. Garab Dorje to Manjushrimitra to Shri Singha to Padmasambhava etc... All these great masters receiving transmission, which is going on till this day. And if these great masters went for initiations why wouldn`t we?

[Jakara]

 

The daoist require transmission too. The initiation a draw back? ...

 

Possibly, but again, go practice that if you think it doesn`t require transmission.

 

Dzogchen is always Dzogchen no matter how you call it. But you can`t know what it is without a teacher.

 

 

Transmissions are not the same as initiations. Daoist practices do not always require initiations, the ritual acceptance of a student does, but not every successfull practitioner was ritually accepted as a student. Transmissions of knowledge whatever form they take, even from books, are helpful and reduce time if they are understood, but even they arent neccessary. We know that the original buddha acheived enlightenment without help from other teachers.

 

Thanks for the advice, though I do not require being told what to do by some guy across the internet. The appeal here is for experienced practitioners to come forward with their experience and discuss using intellectual reason, not to participate in an online arguement.

 

Initiations might simply have been a requirement for the orthodox propagation of a lineage system, but that doesnt mean the system cant be practiced without them. The lineage is supposed to ensure the validity of the teachings, but it isnt the teaching itself. Dzogchen has its lineage yes, but anyone can practice the practices and acheive the same results if it is done properly. Dzogchen has a lot of tradition associated with it, but it is just tradition, the practice itself is pure like wu-wei daoism, its non-elitist and does not require lineage or tradition. These things are human invented and dualistic in nature. Dzogchen means non-dualistic reality, the association of principles to this is not appropriate - they are dualistic!

[Pero]

Transmissions are not the same as initiations. Daoist practices do not always require initiations, the ritual acceptance of a student does, but not every successfull practitioner was ritually accepted as a student. Transmissions of knowledge whatever form they take, even from books, are helpful and reduce time if they are understood, but even they arent neccessary. We know that the original buddha acheived enlightenment without help from other teachers.

 

Yes you`re right, I`ve been using them interchangeably, sorry. But anyway, transmission from a book???

Buddha had teachers. In the life he achieved enlightenment in and previous lives. He remembered his teacher from previous lives through the power of his meditation.

 

Thanks for the advice, though I do not require being told what to do by some guy across the internet. The appeal here is for experienced practitioners to come forward with their experience and discuss using intellectual reason, not to participate in an online arguement.

 

Well, in same way, why would anyone listen to some guy over the internet instead the great masters of the past?

 

Initiations might simply have been a requirement for the orthodox propagation of a lineage system, but that doesnt mean the system cant be practiced without them. The lineage is supposed to ensure the validity of the teachings, but it isnt the teaching itself. Dzogchen has its lineage yes, but anyone can practice the practices and acheive the same results if it is done properly.

 

Nope, because you can`t practice without the transmission. Being done properly means having transmission. Also, how would you know if you`re doing things properly without a teacher?

 

I have yet to hear about anyone who achieved enlightenment with dzogchen and not have a teacher.

 

Dzogchen has a lot of tradition associated with it, but it is just tradition, the practice itself is pure like wu-wei daoism, its non-elitist and does not require lineage or tradition. These things are human invented and dualistic in nature. Dzogchen means non-dualistic reality, the association of principles to this is not appropriate - they are dualistic!

 

How do you know that, if you didn`t receive direct introduction and do dzogchen practice? The practice requires that a teacher directly introduces you to your own real nature. And this goes from teacher to teacher, hence lineage.

 

Garab Dorje`s first statement is Direct Introduction....

 

And just so, if you think I`m arguing or something, I think I`m actually being pretty nice.

 

But anyway man, you do whatever you want, you`re responsible for yourself. Just don`t go around claiming you`re practicing dzogchen without a teacher.

[Jakara]

Likewise. Im not a Dzogchen practitioner and don't claim anything I haven't read from a respectable source. The Buddha would have been a boddhisatva then wouldn't he? A buddha can't be reincarnated by definition, else he's a boddhisatva. I agree to some extent that a teacher is highly recommended or perhaps even essential, though I am aware of a few individuals with high attainments and no teachers. Its not impossible, just improbable.

 

Though im debating the point of initiation and not whether or not a teacher is required. Lets take an example from Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, a Dzogchen manual:

 

The practice of trekcho:

 

"First we should get into the right state for the essential ripening of the mind. For this purpose it is necessary to receive the initiation. However, if you come through the preliminary practices you will receive the initiation through the practice itself. The initiation is to show you the natural state, if you do the preliminary practices you will see the natural state and therefore already have the initiation."

 

So in this context, the initiation is neccessary, but it does not require a teacher to bestow it upon the student - because the student has the appropriate experience from preliminary practices.

 

This is what I mean, if we have enough experience in similar techniques, is it really neccessary to receive initiation from a teacher, given that our previous experience does the same job? The initiation must have a function, it must serve a purpose, it cant simply be a traditional ritual that has no practical value or it can easily be by-passed. But if it does have practical value then a similar experience could be used as a substitute, given they serve the same purpose. Either way the initiation, specifically from a teacher, is not neccesary in this example.

 

This might not be the case for other practices however, im prodominantley daoist and still researching buddhist techniques, hence my line of questioning and appeal from anyone who does practice these advanced yogas. Are the initiations an absolute must? Can we not acheive any results at all without them? Is there a magical barrier between us and our success that can only be lifted with a special empowerment?

[Pero]

The Buddha would have been a boddhisatva then wouldn't he? A buddha can't be reincarnated by definition, else he's a boddhisatva.

 

Yes, he was a boddhisattva before becoming a Buddha.

 

 

Though im debating the point of initiation and not whether or not a teacher is required. Lets take an example from Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, a Dzogchen manual:

 

What do you mean with initiation?

 

The practice of trekcho:

 

"First we should get into the right state for the essential ripening of the mind. For this purpose it is necessary to receive the initiation. However, if you come through the preliminary practices you will receive the initiation through the practice itself. The initiation is to show you the natural state, if you do the preliminary practices you will see the natural state and therefore already have the initiation."

 

So in this context, the initiation is neccessary, but it does not require a teacher to bestow it upon the student - because the student has the appropriate experience from preliminary practices.

 

Good question. I don`t know how it is in Bon. But I will ask.

[Jakara]

After a quick reference to wikipedia, that hugely authorative source, the buddha was indeed a boddhisattva before becoming a buddha; how interesting. That seems slightly odd, the stories say he acheived enlightenment without help from other beings, but other beings must have helped him from his previous lives. I thought daoism was confusing.

 

Ok so we now know that atleast one initiation can be done on our own without a teacher, though we may require a teacher to learn the practices that are being used as the initiation in the first place. Still, its sort of some progress.

 

Apparently the initiations for the six yogas are for permission to use the deity in a visualisation technique. The practices can be done without the initiation (how effective they are without initiation it doesnt say) but one must visualise the self as the self and not as the deity that the initiation is required for.

 

This would suggest that if we want to practice the six yogas exactly according to the Vajra tradition we must have the initiation. But it doenst say we cant practice them without initiation for another motive. The authorities on this aren't very clear.

[joeblast]

I don`t think I`m splitting hairs though. Saying that one doesn`t need a teacher to follow dzogchen is not a small difference from saying that one does need a teacher.

Perhaps not...I understand you're just trying to be clear, but one can endlessly debate semantics. That's something I've learned over the years...sometimes its too much to try to be absolutely-completely-100%-accurate-with-words-right-down-to-every-last-little-nitty-gritty-detail-so-there-is-absolutely-no-question-about-what-the-words-put-forth-really-mean.

 

Point in case, I've grown tired of reading through the posts in this thread because there are so many 'words' that it seems the heart of the matter has become mired in all of the verbiage when this happens.

Edited November 2, 2007 by joeblast

[Jakara]

It is difficult to describe religious doctrines and concepts with words. But youre right, there is too much debating about this, that and the other.

Just want to hear from someone with experience in the 6 yogas of naropa or other similar practices.

[rex]

In the interests of brevity I won't quote from teachers and texts, though I will on request.

 

The tail end of this thread is basically about this:

 

They've got something I haven't got and I want it, and I want someone to tell me that I can take it on my own terms.

 

Pero has been quite clear that you can't take it on your own terms, stating without obfuscation or hair splitting:

 

The tantric and dzogchen traditions state explicitly that formal initiation/introduction from a living and realised lineage holder is required to practice in these traditions and use their methods - anything else just doesn't cut it.

 

Of course with the published texts the cat is out the bag now and no one has to accept the traditions within their own terms of reference - but they do so at their own risk.

 

No one with experience of the six yogas will write of their experiences on a public forum as they're bound under oath not to.

[bindo]

In the interests of brevity I won't quote from teachers and texts, though I will on request.

 

The tail end of this thread is basically about this:

 

They've got something I haven't got and I want it, and I want someone to tell me that I can take it on my own terms.

 

Pero has been quite clear that you can't take it on your own terms, stating without obfuscation or hair splitting:

 

The tantric and dzogchen traditions state explicitly that formal initiation/introduction from a living and realised lineage holder is required to practice in these traditions and use their methods - anything else just doesn't cut it.

 

Of course with the published texts the cat is out the bag now and no one has to accept the traditions within their own terms of reference - but they do so at their own risk.

 

No one with experience of the six yogas will write of their experiences on a public forum as they're bound under oath not to.

what if someone received the initiation/transmission in a past life?

[Jakara]

 

The tail end of this thread is basically about this:

 

They've got something I haven't got and I want it, and I want someone to tell me that I can take it on my own terms.

 

 

Good pop psychology. Of course if someone is advertising these systems like they have been doing its not unreasonable for others to be interested. But why publish all this stuff and write stories about the short path to enlightenment if its not accessible? Its like Dangling a carrot on a stick and saying we have this and you can't get it. Again it seems a bit un-buddhist.

The only reason I would expect to take it under my own terms, as you so put it, is because it is advertised as a buddhist system - "For the benefit of all beings" is there some small print? : as long as they make it through our requirements?

 

Im not looking for anyone to tell me what I supposedly want to hear. Im looking for evidence either way. Even a small example or account is fine, doesn't have to be a scientific paper on it. Thats all im asking, an appeal for someone with experience in these matters, not opinions without evidence.

 

Pero seems to know a good deal on buddhism, but hasn't given any explanations yet, only "nope you can't do it". Excuse me if I don't take one persons word on it without reason.

 

If people are bound by oath not to talk about their experiences then how are there so many books on it? Explaining their experiences? Magic and mystery in Tibet by alexandra david-neel for example. Unfortunately none of them go into detail on the whys and hows of the system, simply that they do it and what the results are.

[nightwatchdog]

Adam you have made clear what was once obscure. You also know how to turn a phrase.

 

I'm not so good with the words, but I must ask the others:

 

What benefit does intitiation truly possess? I've had my head shaved, recieved transmission in the Medicine Buddha tradition (While a jet-lagged rinpoche loudly snored I might add, a joke I didn't get until later ), I've had funny symbols drawn over my head by enlightened folks who's name I can't remember...

 

It was a big deal to me. Then I spent a year just sitting by myself, and I learned something; I was always sitting by myself. And I was never alone.

 

Now initiation seems not such a big deal.

 

Still I am sitting.

 

Or as some Zen dude said, "I left, and then I returned. It was nothing special."

 

Or as Dogen Zenji pointed out, "Already we possess the real features of a person who is enlightened to the ultimate: we should therfore not be concerned about the already present matter that we call 'enlightened to the ultimate'."

 

Or as Buddha Shakyamuni exclaimed in the moment of his awakening, "Amazing! Wonderful! All beings at once are enlightened in this very moment!"

[Pero]

what if someone received the initiation/transmission in a past life?

 

He has to receive it again in this life.

[lockpaw]

Hey Pero,

 

What do you make of the Buddha saying that reliance on rituals and practices is actually a fetter to enlightenment? I read all this about needing transmission, and I tend to think this is all about keeping the masters in power. Look at Trungpa's student who received the transmission and went around having unprotected sex with his students. What does lineage mean if the masters can't be trusted?