Cameron

The Law of Karma Thread

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I consider this to be by far the most important thread I have started on Tao Bums.

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It will also be the last post I make on the Taoist Discussion board this year(I will post here and there in my journal).

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What is the Law of Karma? How have you experienced the Law of Karma? Do you believe in it? Do you live your life in a way to be in harmony and balance with it?

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Ok..I won't respond to anything just read what you all have to say :)

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I consider this to be by far the most important thread I have started on Tao Bums.

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It will also be the last post I make on the Taoist Discussion board this year(I will post here and there in my journal).

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What is the Law of Karma? How have you experienced the Law of Karma? Do you believe in it? Do you live your life in a way to be in harmony and balance with it?

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Ok..I won't respond to anything just read what you all have to say :)

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I knew this thread was coming. I was in meditation last night and this morning, and saw this thread was coming very very soon. And it will get long.

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Karma is a process of outflows. What you think, you experience. This means you are radiating the energy of that thought, and it is affecting your environment. This radiating has an outcome, and the affect on the environment also has an outcome. Because it was sent out, it must be returned. THe process of opposites and keeping them still/"balanced" is Karma.

It is in everything you do. In entertaining thoughts, speech, work, desires, writing, showering, having sex...and it affects all levels of mind. It is the underlying law of relativity when the mind is attached, and one is not free to come and go as they please.

Even after one has realized, and has been enlightened, they still have to undergo their repaying of debt if their attachments/afflictions were heavily entertained.

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This thread is going to be long. I advise patience with it, or it can become a sloppy thread, with nothing really understood. Karma has been talked and intellectualized for such a long time, no one wants to get to it.

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One can not really balance karma. They can only put down their personal attachments to what they desire and experience, and the force of attention to their thoughts which lead them to their outcomes, will be lessened, and the outcome of their cause will not result in extreme emotional attachment.

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This is an excerpt taken from the article ' Recitation and States'

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" So, affinity is karma...karma is the process of manifesting what is of the cultivator's, or person's, mind, whether good or bad...

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...It is likened to throwing a brick at a window. If you throw it very hard, the glass breaks into many small pieces. If you just lightly throw the brick, the glass breaks, but the pieces will be much larger. That is due to the momentum of throwing the brick.

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Same with thoughts, emotions, desires. Concentrate enough on them, and there is an overflow of them. That is the momentum of thoughts, and karma is the process of slowing down that momentum, manifesting the outcomes from it, and ending it. But people usually add more to it, and get overwhelmed."

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Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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i believe in cause and effect. how can you not?

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robert bruce puts it best in Astral Dynamics

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"Karma is not reward and punishment, but is the long-term progress of energetic balancing whereby individual consciousness units (spirits) progressively attain balance throughout multiple incarnations within the physical dimension.

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it's such a mysterious subject, and we will never truly know in this lifetime what truly is going on, but i feel its very important to keep an open mind and understand that we aren't here by accident, there has to be a reason. to me that reason is spiritual progress, to others that reason can be different. you can't force someone to become spiritual, it has to come from within... a conscious choice. shaped through experience we definitely are. reincarnation or collective consciousness, one has to be true..or both. taking responsibility for your life is hard for most people but its very important.

Edited by mikaelz

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Hi Lin,

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Since the juggernaut has been set in motion, I have yet another annoying question for the young master. I have heard it mentioned on another forum that once one reaches a certain level of cultivation that they free themselves from their karmic debt. What is your take on this?

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P.S. You may want to avoid this thread for a while friend, because it may become a fulltime job trying to unmuddy the waters.

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Hi Lin,

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Since the juggernaut has been set in motion, I have yet another annoying question for the young master. I have heard it mentioned on another forum that once one reaches a certain level of cultivation that they free themselves from their karmic debt. What is your take on this?

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P.S. You may want to avoid this thread for a while friend, because it may become a fulltime job trying to unmuddy the waters.

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My Dear Cultivation Brother,

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That was the warning I received last night and this morning during meditation.

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When one attains such a state, they have attained Nirvana.

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Peace and Blassings,

Lin

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P.S.- Unmuddy-ing the waters is one of the vows I took at 11yrs old. Difficult indeed, not difficult if one is selfless.

I'm Still cultivating.

Edited by 林愛偉

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Here is the posting of the Buddha Speaks the Sutra on Cause and Effect.

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A very serious discussion this will be.

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Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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The laws of give and take; one hand washes the other. Very interesting read.

Something in there has definitely pinched a sore spot in my recent nature which I had, hitherto, been not willing to genuinely address. Cheers that caused a positive spark. I have started this day the right way.

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The laws of give and take; one hand washes the other. Very interesting read.

Something in there has definitely pinched a sore spot in my recent nature which I had, hitherto, been not willing to genuinely address. Cheers that caused a positive spark. I have started this day the right way.

post-758-1193473469.gif

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One will attain what they place in their mind. You can view the mind like the ground, and your outcomes are what come from it. So if you put ...lustful thoughts, you will attain lustful outcomes. Depending on how long you hold those thoughts decides how strong your outcome affects you personally.

How you react personally creates more outcomes. Instead of cutting off our reactions, views and feelings, thoughts towards what we experience, we living beings usually add more to the outcome thus resulting in more and more outcomes.

Those outcomes are dependent upon our views, thoughts, feelings of what we are experiencing.

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Peace,

Lin

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Good topic Cameron, nice attachment Lin. :)

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These are some notes from a course I attended which may be of interest to some. If not, no worries, it was good revision typing out these edited highlights:

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Interdependence is the mechanism that binds all elements of existence, karma is the energy that puts it in action. Interdependence is like the interdependent mechanical parts of the samsaric car, karma is the fuel that allows it to run.

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Karma has two components: the intention that precedes an act and the karmic imprint or trace that

is left in consciousness following the act that will produce a result in the future when conditions are right.

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The intention behind an act and its affect on the object determines whether karma is positive or negative:

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White intention/white act: positive

White intention/black act: positive

Black intention/white act: negative

Black intention/black act: negative

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Positive karma originates from the eleven virtuous mental factors and the ten abstensions/virtues.

Negative karma originates from the six root passions, the twenty secondary passions and the indulgence of the ten non-virtuous acts.

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A karmic path has four stages:

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1) The basis: the object on which a karmic path can be accomplished e.g. a sentient being

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2) Thought: comprised of three elements:

- Identifying, the basis must be recognised without any mistake e.g. that particular being will be singled out.

- Motivation the conscious desire to carry out an act.

- The mental factor involved: from the range of positive and negative factors.

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3) The action itself.

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4) The outcome.

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When the four stages of karma are fulfilled then there are three types of effects:

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1) The fully ripened result, e.g.in the case of negative karma rebirth in a lower realm.

2) The result similar to the cause has two elements

- result similar to the cause in the action e.g. reborn killers will from a young age delight in killing.

- result similar to the cause in the experience e.g. reborn killers dying at a young age in several successive lifetimes from having shortened the lives of others in past lives.

3) The result similar to the power: this conditions the environment and the circumstances of future lives e.g. being born in a war zone

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There are three types of karma depending on the results:

- Meritorious karma that induces a favourable rebirth in one of the three upper realms.

- Non-meritorious karma that induces an unfavourable rebirth in one of the three lower realms.

- Stable karma leads to rebirth in the pure-form and formless god realms.

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All these karmas are conditioned by ignorance whose results do not escape samsara.

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Karma is said to be accumulated if one has the intention to carry it out.

Karma is accomplished when the act has been carried out.

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Accumulation and accomplishment have four combinations:

- Accumulated and accomplished karma: one has the desire to carry out an act and does it.

- Accumulated karma that has not been accomplished: one has a desire to do something but doesn't.

- Karma that has not been accumulated but has been accomplished: no desire to kill but still inadvertently kills.

- Karma that is neither accumulated nor accomplished: one has no desire to kill, has inadvertently killed but immediately applied the four powers of purification.

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The power of a given karma depends on several factors:

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* The length of time between the moment the karmic imprint is registered in the consciousness and the moment when the right conditions are united for the result to manifest. Karma continuously increases over time.

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* The conjunction (complete or incomplete) of the four stages of the karmic path.

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* The object affected by karma: a karma will be more active and powerful if it is linked to a holy being, someone close, a bodhisattva or someone in great danger.

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* The frequency of the act: the cummulative repetition of karmas of the same sort reinforces them.

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* The intensity of the motivation: temporary irritation or stubborn hatred, momentary pity or authentic compassion ...

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* Absence or presence of opposite kinds of karmas: these can reduce, postpone or thwart the result.

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A karmic result can mature at three different times: this life; the next life; a subsequent life.

Edited by rex

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I'm still confused...

One will attain what they place in their mind. You can view the mind like the ground, and your outcomes are what come from it. So if you put ...lustful thoughts, you will attain lustful outcomes.
This sounds like the LOA and reaping what we mentally sow?
White intention/white act: positive

White intention/black act: positive

Black intention/white act: negative

Black intention/black act: negative

The problem I see with this is, the more ignorant you choose to remain on all the reprecussions of your actions...then the less "karmically liable" you become for them. So, why become more socially-aware and ecologically-conscious, then? Or sensitive to your effects on others? Then you can no longer plead ignorance and must try living like a saint to not affect anyone or anything in a negative way. Instead of a bumbling idiot who tramples through life with ignorance as his alibi. Or a do-gooder paving the road to Hell with his good (but highly-ignorant) intentions (like many religious zealots).

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If you meditate you will at some point understand what is the energetic pattern that the human mind interprets as something dubbed "karma", inextricably intertwined with the concept of linear time.

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you can see through all these constructs via your spiritual work/energy practise. just keep doing your practise.

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all will become clear.

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in the meantime you will have only a cerebral story about karma to occupy your mind.

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The problem I see with this is, the more ignorant you choose to remain on all the reprecussions of your actions...then the less "karmically liable" you become for them. So, why become more socially-aware and ecologically-conscious, then? Or sensitive to your effects on others?
Ignorance is one of the six root passions so it'll be conducive to non-meritorious karma. Not being aware socially or ecologically and insensitive to others would at the very least be lack of respect for others which is one of the twenty secondary passions, again, conducive to non-meritorious karma.

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The idea behind white intention/black act is to be able to lie, cheat, shout at people, even use violence etc. if it saves them or others from harm. Of course this needs discernment, spiritual maturity and ability to see the full consequences of one's actions. Needless to say these actions must be performed without the presence of the six root and twenty secondary passions.

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(The six passions are: concupiscent desire, anger, pride, ignorance, doubts or afflicted opinions, attachment to extreme views.

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The twenty secondary passions are: aggression, resentment, hypocrisy, malice, jealousy, miserliness, deception, concealment, conceit, violence, absence of shame, lack of respect for others, inertia, excitation, lack of faith, laziness, carelessness, forgetfulness, inattention or lack of examination and distraction. )

Edited by rex

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I'm still confused...This sounds like the LOA and reaping what we mentally sow?The problem I see with this is, the more ignorant you choose to remain on all the reprecussions of your actions...then the less "karmically liable" you become for them. So, why become more socially-aware and ecologically-conscious, then? Or sensitive to your effects on others? Then you can no longer plead ignorance and must try living like a saint to not affect anyone or anything in a negative way. Instead of a bumbling idiot who tramples through life with ignorance as his alibi. Or a do-gooder paving the road to Hell with his good (but highly-ignorant) intentions (like many religious zealots).

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Law of Attraction is one manner within the Law of karma. Not separate, only one expression of process within Karma.

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Basically.. it is still Karma, just changing the name so people can feel something is new. And possibly, the person who made up the term didn't realize it was simply karma, and or he liked new agey concepts.

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Peace and Blessings,

Lin

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I want to believe that the universe is just-----like a wise judge, but I can't choose the universe I believe in. Whatever universe seems most likely is the universe I am forced by my rational mind to believe in and one that so closely resembles the human conception of justice looks to me like a human invention unless I can somehow conceive of such a universe evolving through the same sort of process not requiring the direction of a human mind that I seem to have evolved out of.

That's not to say that the universe has to be completely without human attributes, after all, we are evidence of the human attributes of the universe. But to believe that the LAWS GOVERNING the universe are so constructed as to form the exact kind of system of justice that we humans would invent were we in charge seems just too close to the mythology of exoteric religion to be credible to me. My rational mind tells me if it looks like a human invention, it is a human invention.

I'm not completely closed to any concept of karma at all. For instance I can see how we might all be fated to living in whatever world we help create. But a world in which it is all cut and dried----such and such an action results in such and such a payback for each individual invariably----that world, in my mind, could only come about in the universe of religious mythology.

There is a principle that is not justice per se but which does even things out quite a bit. The relativity of our experience which dictates infallibly that we can only know suffering to the degree to which we know pleasure. But that doesn't give you the satisfaction of knowing absolutely that the dirty bastard who took your parking spot will get his taken exactly the same way or that giving one up for someone will insure a parking spot for you in the future.

Never the less, I try to treat others as I would myself because in reality there are no others. There is only myself and if I hurt someone else I am hurting myself even though I don't feel the pain in the body I use to do it with. And maybe in some way that is hidden my connection with the rest of the universe is karma of some kind, but exactly how seems to be beyond anyones ability to know. Sorry if that muddies the water, but to my way of seeing it, it was already muddy in the sense of being beyond human understanding.

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Sorry if that muddies the water, but to my way of seeing it, it was already muddy in the sense of being beyond human understanding.

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Beyond ordinary human understanding.. yes. Cultivated... not at all... ^_^

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Peace,

Lin

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Beyond ordinary human understanding.. yes. Cultivated... not at all... ^_^

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Peace,

Lin

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Could you explain? I do have an open mind about perceiving things outside the normal range of perception, though something like the law of karma seems unknowable by any means I can imagine. Also I am unfamiliar with the term "cultivate" as I have seen it used here the last couple days. Is that a term for spiritual development? One thing I am sure you're right about----this will be a long thread. :P

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Beyond ordinary human understanding.. yes. Cultivated... not at all... ^_^

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Peace,

Lin

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Nicely put, Lin.

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That way of articulating it will stay with me.

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One of the things which keeps me a fairly sealed vessel is the possibility of incurring envy/rage or other negative reactions from others because of the results of cultivation, were they to be palpably clear to those not in a parallel position.

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It is a privelege to be able to practise cultivation. And the priveleged get attacked as well as revered.

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minusmode - here is a quote from wong kiew kit, which is pretty to the point:

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Spiritual cultivation, which is non-religious, .... It is cultivating the spirit, and involves emotional, mental as well as spiritual purification. Our spirit, called soul or mind in some cultures, is originally pure. In Zen terms this is described as we are originally the Buddha, and in Western terms it is described as we have the divine spark of God in us. At the lowest level, spiritual cultivation enables us to be happy and peaceful, and at the highest level it enables us to return to God, or by whatever name we call the Supreme Reality.

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I have a "new" hypothesis for "karma."

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Maybe it's basically just psychic BAGGAGE. Unresolved issues. Emotions that were not openly expressed and released at the time they arose, and so stayed stuck in the energy body waiting to be released at some later point. Or any strong beliefs that became deeply internalized...that could then stay there for lifetimes.

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As you can see, it's not really about LOA, "crime & punishment" or even "cause and effect." Although those scenarios often do come into play as a result. But it's really simply about how everyone/everything involved FEELS and believes as a 2-WAY STREET.

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This would solve the confusing dilemna between "intent" and "acts." Really, it's more about how the subject and the objects of his intent truly FEEL (revealed by their energy bodies) as a result - which creates a similar 2X2 2-way matrix:

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S+: If he feels good about an intent/action, he will keep wanting it and LOA will probably come into effect here. This is "good" karma on his side, no matter what his effects were on others.

O+: If his objects also feel good about his intents/actions, then that is "good" karma on their side as well.

S-: If he feels bad about an intent/action, he will probably create a block in himself against it. This block will manifest in repeated situations until he can remove it and get past it.

O-: If his objects also feel bad about his intents/actions, then that is "bad" karma on their side and they also suffer a block there that they will have to remove and get past. But, this will also create a matching block in their "abuser" that they will have to be forgiven for to release.

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So, basically, you end up with 4 possible combinations, and each is at least slightly negative except for the first:

S+/O+: Everybody's happy. A round of good karma all around.

S+/O-: Bad karma will affect the "victim," and then bounce back at the "abuser" from the victim. Even though the "abuser" directly created no bad karma for himself. So a serial killer with no remorse...will still get guilt projected onto him from all his victims who did feel hurt.

S-/O+: The "abuser" creates his own bad karma, but there is none in or from the object.

S-/O-: Everybody hurts... :D

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So, I don't think there is so much a "cosmic judge" or "absolute morality" per se, here. It's more how our energy bodies react either positively or negatively to these events. Ultimately, it's up to our energy bodies and those we affect that determine how we interpret intents/actions and what type of "karma" they generate.

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Thus, the same act could have different consequences.

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- If Bill kills Bob, but they both felt good about it, then there will be good karma from both.

- Now, if Bill kills Bob, but they both felt bad about it, then there will be bad karma from both. Bill might feel guilty and need forgiveness. The guilt trip comes from both himself and Bob. Whereas Bob might become fearful in life and develop a complex about what happened. They will BOTH suffer (not just the aggressor) until the issue is resolved.

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There is no other judge here than Bill and Bob, though (or more precisely, their energy bodies). Ultimately, "good and bad" is decided by what FEELS "good and bad" by us. Of course, "us" being our energy bodies...which may know a lot more than we think and be far from ignorant.

Edited by vortex

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:)

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Feeling good about something is a state of mind and doesn't decide what kind of karma one receives.

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Someone may choose to kill me, and though I see , according to the conditions, there would be no way to change the situation given any deep karma I have, I would let it be, and agree tot he act. i am still in mind and heart with it, without being moved by it through anger and fear. I am free from the cycle of karma with tht person, and that person is freed from the cycle with me by my acceptance and non duality about it.

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BUT That person will undergo their outcomes for believing there being a death and a life, and for the act of killing. They would undergo karmic balancing(retribution) for their attachments to views. Whether both felt good or not, bot undergo the karma for their attachments to views, even if the views led to a happy experience. Happiness is of mind, and is a view of a self experiencing a mind of happiness. This places separation in the mind and states there is a being that is experiencing and that experience is a happiness.

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Just to note, Karma is a process of paying back, giving back, fulfilling outcomes. No matter what its called LOA, or anything else, it is still karma. You put a thought out there and you get a response. Karma.

It is vast and yet many do claim to understand its full workings. I don't. I understand a teensie bit...possibly.

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Peace and Blessings ,

Lin

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Feeling good about something is a state of mind and doesn't decide what kind of karma one receives.

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BUT That person will undergo their outcomes for believing there being a death and a life, and for the act of killing. They would undergo karmic balancing(retribution) for their attachments to views. Whether both felt good or not, bot undergo the karma for their attachments to views, even if the views led to a happy experience.

Ok, so you believe that someone who truly believes they are putting a terminally-ill patient out of their misery, at their request with euthanasia - will still suffer bad karma?

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That makes no sense to me. But by my thesis, both would probably get "good" karma from that. Although, the positive attraction to suicide could linger into future lives and potentially pose a problem there... This is probably why Buddha talked about freeing yourself from ALL karma, because ultimately morality is relative and changing...and any karma just keeps you dualistic and attached to going back for more.

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So you talk about a separation between the being and his experience...but what about your attachment to the separation between life and death? And the dualistic belief that earthly life = good & death = bad?

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Like what about someone who doesn't believe death is bad - but just a change? Then, he may not really care when he dies. It just seems a lot of "your karma" is founded upon absolute morality, instead of situational ethics. Which will then keep you attached to this world as you keep chasing "good" karma...which as the "Parable of the Taoist Farmer" teaches, is all relative and changing, anyways. Good becomes bad and bad becomes good. So, all it does is suck you back into the dualistic loop of attachments. But duality does not exist outside of your mind. And all karma is an attachment. Therefore, both must be transcended in the end. :D

Edited by vortex

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So you talk about a separation between the being and his experience...but what about your attachment to the separation between life and death? And the dualistic belief that earthly life = good & death = bad?

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Like what about someone who doesn't believe death is bad - but just a change? Then, he may not really care when he dies. It just seems a lot of "your karma" is founded upon absolute morality, instead of situational ethics. Which will then keep you attached to this world as you keep chasing "good" karma...which as the "Parable of the Taoist Farmer" teaches, is all relative and changing, anyways. Good becomes bad and bad becomes good. So, all it does is suck you back into the dualistic loop of attachments. But duality does not exist outside of your mind. And all karma is an attachment. Therefore, both must be transcended in the end. :D

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That is why there is Non-Dual teachings. Its function is to drop all personal attachments to good and bad. THough one will still have to go through their karma, it may be diminished y their wholesome cultivation.

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Never have I proclaimed an attachment to notions of life and death. But others have...maybe not on this board but in this world. Using their beliefs and conditions to let them see through it is a difficult one indeed and requires one to have seen through their own conditions and attachments as well.

Being honest with you, I am attached to this body, but for one reason only. That reason is that I made a vow to my fiance, and I can't break promises even for my own desire to go further. Because there is this condition, patience arises. Must cultivate patience. Let go of both attachments of the vow and the fiance...therefore one never leaves and never returns. Cultivation remains constant, no death and no life, only the use of the function of views.

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Both must be transcended to end indeed :D you are veyr much correct. Both duality and karma are of the mind. But not everyone can put them down completely ..and right away. Some require a gradual teaching, others, Sudden. But the teachings are neither both. Only the mind cultivating ^_^

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If one realizes the function of views, then though there is a loop they move through , they are not confined to its ways.

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The Bodhisattva, Buddha, Arhat can come and go as they please. An un-realized one , ordinary human, can't

That is a big difference.

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Peace and Blessings :)

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Lin

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...therefore one never leaves and never returns. Cultivation remains constant, no death and no life, only the use of the function of views.

There is a Zen-story about this that you probably know much better than me, Lin :) Please give us the correct story(with correct english language) if you know it...

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A Zen practitioner fed up with the wold and wanted to reach heaven, and to do so he was told to let go of the world. So he let go of the world and came to heaven and all was fine. But then after a while he wanted to go further, he wanted God-realization. In order to get God-realization he was told to let go of heaven. He did and got God-realized. All was fine for ever and ever, but he still felt he had to go even further. Now, after he has renouned all there is to renounce, what is left? He discovered that the only thing left to let go of was "to let go of things". So he did, and at that moment he was back in his everyday live. The only difference was that now he was free of the need to renounce things.

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There is a Zen-story about this that you probably know much better than me, Lin :) Please give us the correct story(with correct english language) if you know it...

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A Zen practitioner fed up with the wold and wanted to reach heaven, and to do so he was told to let go of the world. So he let go of the world and came to heaven and all was fine. But then after a while he wanted to go further, he wanted God-realization. In order to get God-realization he was told to let go of heaven. He did and got God-realized. All was fine for ever and ever, but he still felt he had to go even further. Now, after he has renouned all there is to renounce, what is left? He discovered that the only thing left to let go of was "to let go of things". So he did, and at that moment he was back in his everyday live. The only difference was that now he was free of the need to renounce things.

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That story is really inspirational actually...lol I quite like it. Its fine the way you say it ^_^

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Free of the need to renounce means there is nothing to renounce.

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Peace,

Lin

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