How do Taoists handle enemies?

[lazy man]

 Dealing with negative energy is uncomfortable for sure. However this part of life is "the firing process" along the way. It can't be ignored. Only the individual effected can judge what level of response is appropriate at the moment. A big one is "do you  truly know yourself?" (art of war aside).   

 

 

Life will give you what you need (sometimes very uncomfortable). You need to trust it and then trust it some more! The more you do the more Life will trust you. A person can ask for help and it will arrive in the most unknown way. This I can attest to.

 

Best

 

l

[topaz]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

The opponent is trying to steal energy by effecting in any way possible.  if we give the opponent no energy in return removing all resistance the opponent will not be satisfied and lose interest.

 

On a physical level the opponent strikes only to find that there is nothing there. if we need to return the gift the opposite side of the body can strike without mercy.

 

lead your opponent to emptiness.

lovely theory, straight out of a book

[Harmonious Emptiness]

An enemy is usually lost and looking for company. Just let them know "I'm going this way. You can join me, but I'm not joining you." You have no obligation to let lost boats take you over the waterfall.

 

On the other hand, you may have an obligation to help them.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Harmonious Emptiness

[topaz]

 

But to the point...

The strawberry story, and a certain understanding of being a strawdog should be able to help you.

Wu Wei where you can, but take action when needed.

Is this strawberry story from one of the ancient texts, which one please?

 

(At one point this man slipped and actually threatened my SO at work. Action was taken. Management was made aware. The police were notified. And a security system was installed. I made sure that people who would let him know of the second two got the information.

This person is a manipulator and predator obviously mentally ill. But this sort of behavior is nurtured in perverse environments which most work and bureaucratic situations in the modern world are. My response would have been to immediately go to the superior officer and demand he be fired, but as I said, in perverse environments we call normal that may not be possible.

 

But that may be why Lao Tse's solution was to leave civilization entirely for the wilderness beyond the great wall.

 

 

People will act the way people act; you can't change that. All you can do is adjust your understanding where it is causing you turmoil.

If you want more words, I am here.

And while this has largely been addressed to the OP,

Some of what you say intrigues me enough to think you may know what you are talking about. If you respond I hope you will avoid the temptation of thinking you are any sort of guru or teacher, a disease that has made this forum almost unusable.

Edited November 7, 2015 by topaz

[Marblehead]

Is this strawberry story from one of the ancient texts, which one please?

 

 

Here is a nice version of the story with good after-notes:

 

http://www.taoism.net/living/2003/200301.htm

[topaz]

I know of another aspect of this.

 

say you are in a neighborhood or country where there people feel that all newcomers or foreigners owe the locals money.

 

Or consider the thief or street mugger. They look at you, your clothes, watch etc to gauge how much money you have. It does not matter how much passivity you manifest or how much in tune with your surroundings you are, they want to gouge that value out of you.

 

In some foreign countries your only value to the locals is in how much money you give them.

 

They will antagonize you in order to get this money. The mugger will mug you in any case, tao or not.

[topaz]

Here is a nice version of the story with good after-notes:

 

http://www.taoism.net/living/2003/200301.htm

the commentary was good up the point the writer started explaining the strawberry.

 

whenever someone says "Step outside and place yourself in communion with nature" I become skeptical. How do you do that in the middle of a city where most of us are?

 

This writer may not understand the tao.

[Aaron]

Today I was in a store standing in line. The man in front of me knew one of the meat cutters and someone joked he was cheap. The man kept saying over and over "Mike you're a jew. You're a jew Mike! A jew! Mike you're a jew!" Mike was ignoring him so the man kept repeating that same phrase over and over. Finally I said, "Buddy, he's not a jew, he's just a normal guy. I'm a jew." The guy looked at me and asked, "you're a jew?" "Yeah, I'm a jew," I answered. "My step-father was a jew," he said. "Cool," I said. "I'm not your step-father." The man laughed and went on his way. 

 

This was absolutely not how a Taoist would've handled this situation. 

[Marblehead]

the commentary was good up the point the writer started explaining the strawberry.

 

whenever someone says "Step outside and place yourself in communion with nature" I become skeptical. How do you do that in the middle of a city where most of us are?

 

This writer may not understand the tao.

Oh, he understand the Tao.  He is very verbal and oftentimes says more than is necessary and this results in the lesson being missed.

 

I agree that it would be difficult for a city dweller to experience a communion with raw nature.  Therefore we should, if possible, run off to the mountains on occasion.  And I do understand, many people simply cannot do that.  Sad.

[ilumairen]

Some of what you say intrigues me enough to think you may know what you are talking about. If you respond I hope you will avoid the temptation of thinking you are any sort of guru or teacher, a disease that has made this forum almost unusable.

Hi Topaz, I am no guru or teacher - just someone who talks too much sometimes.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Des

[Daeluin]

A humble spiritual teacher I know moved to a new city and at first established his own practice out where he lived in the wilderness. In time as he established foundation in this new place, he decided it was time to re-open his school. This was an area where many other spiritual teachers lived, and I believe he at some point announced himself to some of them as a friendly introduction. At first he simple place an add in the classified section of the newspaper, and taught private lessons at his residence, but in time rented a room in the city to teach in a school format.

 

During the following years, the rumors I've heard indicate that some of the existing teachers felt threatened by this new school, as perhaps some of their students left to join the new school. Too, in the following years some rumors began to circulate regarding this teacher becoming romantically involved with a student, and so on.

 

Well around the time I came to the school, I was exposed to these rumors. And yet over time spent at the school I came to realize this teacher deliberately did nothing to answer or defend himself from these rumors. He simply continued on as he was, and to me, his virtuous sincerity was able to shine through all the layers of rumor. In time I came to recognize that people like talking about what they don't understand as though they do, as though they have the right to judge things. And often there is no point in reacting to this, as people will believe what they will.

 

Around the time I joined the school, several friends were joining as well. As the three of us were astrologers, we compared each other's charts, and compared our charts to that of the teachers. One of us had a history in studying martial arts, and had been in a previous relationship with an old teacher. I noticed a particular aspect between her chart and that of the teacher's, a Sun conjunct North Node of the Moon:

 

When your Sun is conjunct your partner's North Node, one of the major themes of your relationship is developing each other's talents and strengths. This contact is a powerful one. Instant friendship is probable, but if there is any hesitance, it is likely on the part of the North Node person. The Sun person expresses many of the qualities that the North Node person is intuitively drawn to expressing, and any reluctance on the Node person's part really represents a fear of progress. More probably, this relationship is attractive and carries with it some unspoken promise of growth. There is a feeling of "going somewhere" through this relationship. You are likely to be quite active together, spurring each other on frequently.

 

I've been in relationships with this connection before, and they are very profound. There is the feeling that your main overall purpose in life is aligned with all that the other embodies in who they are, and a strong feeling that mutual growth and evolution can be nurtured while together.

 

Seeing this connection I predicted that these two would be in a relationship, and sure enough it happened within the year. To me I could see the beauty and healing in this connection. The teacher was innocent, pure, natural, compassionate, and the relationship was not paternalistic or one sided in any way. However others seemed to have so much trouble getting past the age difference between the two, and felt compelled to judge the relationship based on this.

 

In the vast spectrum of the dao, many relationships are  possible, yet in our particular manifested realm of operation, we tend to attach to certain ways of being that are correct. We tend to fixate on the letter of what is correct and not correct, rather than allow the principles of right and wrong to be adapted to the context.

 

Sometimes in city-nature, the balance of right and wrong is very strongly adhered to, and there is some restriction placed upon freedom. At one point in my life I had been working for over a year at the city courthouse, and would take lunch breaks somewhere outdoors in the city. One time I was wandering in the park next to the city hall building, which was composed of brick benches to sit on, brick walk-ways, some brick-work that was elevated through several tiers and clearly designed for people to climb up and sit on, and some brickwork that gradually rose to end against one of the walls of the city hall. I chose this as a place to sit, climbing up perhaps a little higher than most people would, and I began to eat my sandwich and read my book as people walked by the sidewalk nearby.

 

Well after about 20 minutes three police officers came and asked me to come down. Two of the officers placed themselves on either side of me and gently yet firmly held one of my arms, and the third took my bag away and search it and my pockets. I was asked questions and written a trespass warning for climbing the building's fascia. They explained that I could have been a terrorist who might place a bomb on the city hall or pull out a gun and start shooting people walking by.

 

But what caused them to think this? It seems to be simply acting outside of the accepted norms of that particular society at that given time. I liked climbing things but that was not considered normal. Too I was sporting a 6month beard in a city where almost no-one grew beards. My creative expressions were treated as a threat to maintaining the normalcy of that society.

 

This is a common side-effect of rule by law. The structure provided by law is important when many people are living in one place, and the more people there are doing things somewhere, it is easy for more laws to come into existence. Unfortunately these laws are not very flexible or adaptable, and result in an environment that is too restricted for creative naturalness to have room. There is still room for this, if we look between the lines, and yet that is difficult for us to do when we are only cultivating within the city.

 

Thus it can be vital to spend deliberate time in nature, just so one can re-discover the more natural balanced that is based on natural structures. These natural structures revolve around ecosystems, and ecosystems depend on a delicate balance being nurtured. Often natural places that are near the influences of humanity have had their naturalness poisoned or conditioned by that human influence, so it is best to find places that are a little deeper and more remote. It is also important to offer respect and nourishment to these places that still maintain their naturalness - as it is important to recognize how one's own city-energy might influence this place of naturalness.

 

Last night I was having a spiritual discussion with a small group of friends. One of these friends is very well versed in certain spiritual systems, and it was mainly the two of us sharing our perspectives that revolve around common truths and answering questions from the others. At some point he started raising his voice and projecting his arguments directly at me, clearly trying to get a reaction or change my perspective using added forcefulness. The first time I simply absorbed it. The second time I commented on it and explained that I was simply absorbing it, but found it odd that he felt it necessary to be so forceful. The third time I reflected it back to him, and though I did this from an objective place, it probably did not contribute anything helpful to maintaining the harmony.

 

The fourth time I decided to leave. Ironically this was right when we were discussing the idea of non-violence. My perspective was that of yielding to remain whole. If someone punches you, simply change so you aren't where they are punching. When we attach to defending our right to exist in a specific type of constancy, we are attaching to a loosing battle, for inevitably change will come. Thus if we are able to adapt flexibly, we do not need to fight off that change. If someone threatens our home, perhaps we stay and fight, or leave and maintain our peace. After all it is when we hold to things of value that others can take value from us. If others do not see value in what we possess they are not likely to attack us, and this applies to topaz's comment on muggers and opportunists. When something is raised up, it can only be brought down. When something maintains its lowly perspective, even when others attempt to cut it down, where can it fall?

 

To help demonstrate this point I mentioned how non-violent activism has been used effectively all around the world. To this he vehemently replied that violence was the only way to deal with such situations, and that people like the Dalai Llama, Ghandi, MLKJ, should be killed as the spiritual message they send results in complaceny in the face of the imbalanced state of things. While I am not certain if he really meant this, it was not his words that pushed me away, but the violence in his expression of them. I explained that I felt attacked and felt like I was being pushed away, and that it was time for me to leave. He followed me out asking if I was being attached to the feeling of being attacked, and I explained that this was not how I felt, that I was simply feeling more invited to be elsewhere.

 

In any case I never responded to his words, but I do have a response to them. This appears to be related to the Chinese concept of Wen and Wu, which is related to the proper time to take a cultured, scholarly action, verses the proper time to take a militant and forceful action. In some sense we can think of this as taking a water-like action or a fire-like action. Both are important, and yet the daodejing and other alchemical texts place the greatest emphasis on water, seeing it as closest to the dao.

 

So first I would agree that a firelike expression can be important, can have its place. And yet who am I to presume that I know what is right for balancing the whole. I can only know myself from the inside-out, and can only know everything else from the outside-in. How then can I know what is right for anything else? Thus perhaps I can use the fire for my own path toward balance, but do not presume to take action to forcibly change others. Yet further, when that fire is used consciously to effect an internal balance, it remains contrived. It can be useful for clearing blockages that prevent the proper flow of water, but it is when the water is allowed to fill up that the real fire ignites on its own, without contrivances.

 

Thus I trust my friend to do as he needs to, and I extend this trust to all others. If I am able to become whole and balanced within myself, and then preserve this wholeness through spontaneously flowing through my environment in whichever way allows to best maintain that wholeness, then I essentially step out of the way of thinking I know what actions are best for the balance of my environment, even as I step into the way of allowing the celestial mechanism to guide me in such a way that my wholeness is used to be of most benefit to the environment.

[ilumairen]

Today I was in a store standing in line. The man in front of me knew one of the meat cutters and someone joked he was cheap. The man kept saying over and over "Mike you're a jew. You're a jew Mike! A jew! Mike you're a jew!" Mike was ignoring him so the man kept repeating that same phrase over and over. Finally I said, "Buddy, he's not a jew, he's just a normal guy. I'm a jew." The guy looked at me and asked, "you're a jew?" "Yeah, I'm a jew," I answered. "My step-father was a jew," he said. "Cool," I said. "I'm not your step-father." The man laughed and went on his way. 

 

This was absolutely not how a Taoist would've handled this situation. 

 

Why not? I suspect somebody in the know would not only accept the equanimity of what is, but also accept their humanness. You took what could have been an uncomfortable situation, and interacted within the situation in such a way that nobody was left feeling belittled or resentful. What am I missing?

[ilumairen]

Well around the time I came to the school, I was exposed to these rumors. And yet over time spent at the school I came to realize this teacher deliberately did nothing to answer or defend himself from these rumors. He simply continued on as he was, and to me, his virtuous sincerity was able to shine through all the layers of rumor. In time I came to recognize that people like talking about what they don't understand as though they do, as though they have the right to judge things. And often there is no point in reacting to this, as people will believe what they will.

 

I believe this to be of significance. At one level we can choose lack of response, and if this is where we are at we can find some relief through distraction and a shift in outward focus. At another level lack of response simply arises without thought of 'other' - true non-doing.

 

 

In the mutually arising interplay I shared the self that is defined through my relationship with others is not a stable place to reside, and my hyper focus on my SO brought me right back to the place of contrived non-doing. 'Other' sought to get to me by attacking my SO, who I held with much more solidity than I held myself, and back into the illusion I fell - maintaining just enough spaciousness to allow my SO to find his own way through the experience.

 

 

(I also suspect that the right/non-right of any judgement of perceived other is a trap - on many levels. First for me being that it doesn't matter if it is a right or not - it simply is, and any thought on the rightness of it will seperate me from the actual experience.)

[ilumairen]

I know of another aspect of this.say you are in a neighborhood or country where there people feel that all newcomers or foreigners owe the locals money.Or consider the thief or street mugger. They look at you, your clothes, watch etc to gauge how much money you have. It does not matter how much passivity you manifest or how much in tune with your surroundings you are, they want to gouge that value out of you.In some foreign countries your only value to the locals is in how much money you give them.They will antagonize you in order to get this money. The mugger will mug you in any case, tao or not.

 

A story. I went to Chicago to visit with someone. When it was time to return home I became lost - which is something that normally sorts itself out. But my sister had gone into labor, I was quite a ways from home, and time actually mattered. I happened upon a gas station, and decided to stop and ask for directions. I entered, smiling in my usual manner, and the clerk looked shocked and asked what I was doing there. At first I thought he must know me from somewhere, and then I realized he was fearful for my safety. My skin was the wrong color; I was small; I was 'fragile other' in a place I didn't belong. That understanding made me feel more warmth towards this stranger, and he in turn shared more warmth with me. I explained the situation, and he gave me directions. The last thing he said was, 'get right on the highway and don't stop anywhere else' - sounding like the protective friend he was in that moment.

 

 

******

 

It isn't just pithy guru garbage when people say the world you experience is a reflection of what is within. It is a truth, and when we hold onto fearfulness we will see reasons to be fearful. Likewise if we hold onto warmth and love we will see this reflected in our lives. (And yes, I still get twisted up in fearful anxiety sometimes - sometimes it's hard not to, and this always contains a lesson if I am able/willing to see it.)

[Aaron]

Actually we reflect a lot of our own feelings and experiences on the world, and because of this, we tend to view the world through a tinted lens. 

[Daeluin]

Actually we reflect a lot of our own feelings and experiences on the world, and because of this, we tend to view the world through a tinted lens. 

 

And when we project our feelings on the world, eventually the world reflects them back to us. The more we project, the more tinted our lens can become.

 

Recognizing our lens as tinted, we can work toward accepting the ripples the world sends to us and work on balancing and dissolving them rather than reacting and projecting parts of them back out.

 

Then gradually the tinted lens becomes clearer and is not as much based on our surface level actions, since we've done work to ensure those actions are as harmonious and balanced as possible. The more we're able to balance and refine in our actions, the ripples our environment sends us will reach deeper layers within and begin to show us more about our deeper imbalances. The more we accept this and become responsible for doing our own work, the more the tints (our blind spots) dissolve and we settle into unity with all.