Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential

[C T]

The bodhisattva Dharmavikurvana declared, "Noble sir, production and destruction are two, but what is not produced and does not occur cannot be destroyed. Thus the attainment of the tolerance of the birthlessness of things is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Srigandha declared, " 'I' and 'mine' are two. If there is no presumption of a self, there will be no possessiveness. Thus, the absence of presumption is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Srikuta declared, " 'Defilement' and 'purification' are two. When there is thorough knowledge of defilement, there will be no conceit about purification. The path leading to the complete conquest of all conceit is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Bhadrajyotis declared, " 'Distraction' and 'attention' are two. When there is no distraction, there will be no attention, no mentation, and no mental intensity. Thus, the absence of mental intensity is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Subahu declared, " 'Bodhisattva-spirit' and 'disciple-spirit' are two. When both are seen to resemble an illusory spirit, there is no bodhisattva-spirit, nor any disciple-spirit. Thus, the sameness of natures of spirits is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Animisa declared, " 'Grasping' and 'nongrasping' are two. What is not grasped is not perceived, and what is not perceived is neither presumed nor repudiated. Thus, the inaction and noninvolvement of all things is the entrance into nonduality."

 

The bodhisattva Sunetra declared, " 'Uniqueness' and 'characterlessness' are two. Not to presume or construct something is neither to establish its uniqueness nor to establish its characterlessness. To penetrate the equality of these two is to enter nonduality."

 

~ Vimalakirti Sutra ~ 

[C T]

 

[C T]

Luminosity

 

The word "Osalwa", often translated as luminous, is related to the word light in that it expresses some kind of brightness or clarity. However, the real meaning of this is not a light that is visible to the eye. Luminosity refers more to the capacity to know.… Hearing that mind is emptiness may lead us to believe that there is no mind. It sounds like we are a mindless piece of matter, which we are not. We are able to experience. Our natural cognizance is available at any moment. That is luminosity, which is not made out of anything whatsoever.

 

~ Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche ~ 

[C T]

"Looking back, it is strange to have a lot of my early years out there on the internet, I feel so different from that young girl who once was. But my evolution has been born from those experiences. I think something we have to contend with as humans is integrating our past rather than resist what it holds. Sometimes what it holds is painful or uncomfortable, but holding that discomfort with compassion allows us to move freely in ourselves and deepens our power. I am grateful for the lessons I have been gifted. And will forever have that seeking spirit." 

 

~ Josje - friend who embodies the Dakini principle to the fullest ~ 

 

[blue eyed snake]

34 minutes ago, C T said:

"Looking back, it is strange to have a lot of my early years out there on the internet, I feel so different from that young girl who once was. But my evolution has been born from those experiences. I think something we have to contend with as humans is integrating our past rather than resist what it holds. Sometimes what it holds is painful or uncomfortable, but holding that discomfort with compassion allows us to move freely in ourselves and deepens our power. I am grateful for the lessons I have been gifted. And will forever have that seeking spirit." 

 

~ Josje - friend who embodies the Dakini principle to the fullest ~ 

 

 

CT, I've a question for you.

 

Once, my teacher said that a woman who has been assaulted and raped, needs to forgive, not only the rapist, but also needs to forgive herself. To which he added that that sounded strange because of course, the woman is innocent of what happened to her/ not guilty of being raped.

 

the forgiving of the rapist has happened, but the forgiving of myself, is still something that eludes me.

I feel  I should not ' think' about these things ( too much) but your quote reawakened that question in me.

 

some years ago my answer was sort of...err... In another life, I've been a rapist myself, and what happened to me in this life, is just the other side of the coin so to say. That felt and feels right to me, I can have peace with that.

 

but there is more underneath that remark of Sifu, haven't yet found it.

I think I have let go of the underlying trauma, pretty sure of that in fact.

[C T]

16 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

CT, I've a question for you.

 

Once, my teacher said that a woman who has been assaulted and raped, needs to forgive, not only the rapist, but also needs to forgive herself. To which he added that that sounded strange because of course, the woman is innocent of what happened to her/ not guilty of being raped.

 

the forgiving of the rapist has happened, but the forgiving of myself, is still something that eludes me.

I feel  I should not ' think' about these things ( too much) but your quote reawakened that question in me.

 

some years ago my answer was sort of...err... In another life, I've been a rapist myself, and what happened to me in this life, is just the other side of the coin so to say. That felt and feels right to me, I can have peace with that.

 

but there is more underneath that remark of Sifu, haven't yet found it.

I think I have let go of the underlying trauma, pretty sure of that in fact.

 

Hi BES - Would you please confirm what the Q is, just so it can be reflected upon accurately. 

 

Are you comfortable speaking about this in the open? 

Its good if you are. 

[blue eyed snake]

oh yes,

 

the question is: what does sifu mean when he says that I have to forgive myself for having been assaulted and raped.

 

he did not mean: "let it go" I asked him that, he said forgiveness goes deeper than that. Or maybe he said that there's nothing wrong with an old-fashioned concept as forgiving is.

[C T]

29 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

oh yes,

 

the question is: what does sifu mean when he says that I have to forgive myself for having been assaulted and raped.

 

he did not mean: "let it go" I asked him that, he said forgiveness goes deeper than that. Or maybe he said that there's nothing wrong with an old-fashioned concept as forgiving is.

 

Thank you for clarifying, BES. Its nice to see you have some energy today to spend some time here. 

 

 

I think it'll be presumptuous of me to assume an answer - I really cannot speak for your teacher, nor understand his position in relation to the advice he offered. However, I can say for certain that what we consider as 'negative' experiences or those where we get a lingering sense of having been victimised has no grounding in the common albeit mistaken belief that somehow we have been victimisers in the past, and as a kind of retributory outflow, we become victims in this life. I could be wrong, but I believe this idea or notion does not accord with the Buddhist view on what karma is and how it actually works. 

 

I'm assuming that you would like to find an answer to this - if one is not culpable, why the need to forgive oneself for the perversive actions of a third party? Im afraid its one that I will not be able to offer any rational answer because personally I do not subscribe to the concept of forgiveness as a workable solution with which to tame and pacify mental afflictions/unhelpful emotions  related to past experiences. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C T]

The ancient Buddhas taught the Dharma 
Not for its own sake but to assist us. 
If we really knew ourselves 
We would not have to rely on old teachers.

 

The wise go right to the core 
And leap beyond appearances; 
The foolish cleave to details 
And get ensnared by words and letters.

 

Such people envy the accomplishments of others 
And work feverishly to attain the same things. 
Cling to truth and it becomes falsehood; 
Understand falsehood and it becomes truth.

 

Truth and falsehood are two sides of a coin: 
Neither accept nor reject either one. 
Don't waste your precious time fruitlessly 
Trying to gauge the depths of life's ups and downs.

 

~ Ryokan ~ 

[steve]

Forgiveness is an interesting and valuable practice for some.

My teacher tells a story of one of his students who lost her husband and 2 children in a bombing in Mumbai several years back.

While the experience was obviously devastating, she reached a point in her recovery where she traveled to India herself to meet with the bomber in prison and express her forgiveness to him.

She felt that this was a necessary step in allowing herself to move forward.

Part of her act was compassion towards the perpetrator and part was compassion towards herself.

Her story really sticks with me.

She ultimately reached a point where her life took a totally different direction, a direction she would never have gone had the attack not claimed her family. In some ways she said that she found out who she really was in a way she'd never known while occupying the role of wife and mother.

 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

Forgiveness is an interesting and valuable practice for some.

My teacher tells a story of one of his students who lost her husband and 2 children in a bombing in Mumbai several years back.

While the experience was obviously devastating, she reached a point in her recovery where she traveled to India herself to meet with the bomber in prison and express her forgiveness to him.

She felt that this was a necessary step in allowing herself to move forward.

Part of her act was compassion towards the perpetrator and part was compassion towards herself.

Her story really sticks with me.

She ultimately reached a point where her life took a totally different direction, a direction she would never have gone had the attack not claimed her family. In some ways she said that she found out who she really was in a way she'd never known while occupying the role of wife and mother.

 

 

Thanks for sharing and you raise a very important point.  Letting go and forgiveness are really just two sides of the same coin.

[C T]

There is no grace in the operation of karma, just as there is no grace in the operation of gravity. The only way to stop the evolution of reactive patterns is to change our relationship with those patterns. ~ Ken McLeod, writing on "Forgiveness is not Buddhist". 

 

In Vajrayana, there is a strong emphasis on purification. In the same article, McLeod wrote:

Quote

 

Purification in the spiritual sense is about creating the conditions for reactive patterns to release themselves. More than this we cannot do. If we try to let go of a pattern directly, the survival mechanism on which the pattern is based goes into operation and the pattern is usually reinforced, not released. In neurological terms, purification often involves creating the conditions in which an experience from the past can move from intrinsic memory to narrative memory. The key capacity necessary for that transition is to be able to experience in open awareness the emotional material associated with what happened. All purification practices do precisely this. Some practices use ritual as a way to create a space for that material to be experienced without acting it out or reliving it. Other practices make use of specific behaviors to create that space for awareness. Still others use visualizations (deity practice in the Tibetan tradition, for instance), or powerful positive emotions (lovingkindness, compassion, joy, or equanimity). Through such practices, we experience what we could not or would not experience before, and our relationship with those reactive emotions change. They become experiences, and they no longer run the show. That shift changes everything.

 

Needless to say, the path of purification is not easy. It involves experiencing precisely what we have always ignored or suppressed. For instance, the Tibetan practice called tonglen, or “taking and sending,” extends and deepens our relationship with compassion. In this practice, we imagine taking in the pain, illness, negativity, confusion, and ignorance of others, freeing them from those afflictions, and then sending to them the joy, health, goodness, good fortune, well-being, and understanding that we experience in our own lives, giving it all away so that they may enjoy it, too. Practitioners are often surprised a few months into this practice by the deep and difficult emotions they find themselves experiencing in reaction to taking in pain and negativity. Understandably, they would prefer simply to be forgiven for their own negativity and to continue to repress their own pain.

 

 

[Jeff]

47 minutes ago, C T said:

There is no grace in the operation of karma, just as there is no grace in the operation of gravity. The only way to stop the evolution of reactive patterns is to change our relationship with those patterns. ~ Ken McLeod, writing on "Forgiveness is not Buddhist". 

 

In Vajrayana, there is a strong emphasis on purification. In the same article, McLeod wrote:

 

 

Tough world view if there is only karma and no forgiveness. Forgiveness is actually an extremely helpful key to changing those "reactive patterns" you are talking about... 

[C T]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Tough world view if there is only karma and no forgiveness. Forgiveness is actually an extremely helpful key to changing those "reactive patterns" you are talking about... 

 

Not really. Its neither tough, nor its opposite. Its what it is, like gravity - its a good way to learn responsibility while at the same time it helps to cultivate a mindset that reduces susceptibility to emotional blackmail. 

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

but there is more underneath that remark of Sifu, haven't yet found it.

I think I have let go of the underlying trauma, pretty sure of that in fact.

 

Hi blue eyed snake,

 

I am not being honest with myself  if I do not acknowledged that I am disturbed by your inputs. Initially - yes. But not anymore as I read on.

 

It takes a lot of courage to do what you are doing and I am not going to pretend that I understand what you had gone/are going through. So I will keep my words to the minimum.

 

What had happened to you pertained to the secular dimension of your life and it is not 'permanent' physically. We can all be violated secularly but no one can touch us spiritually. Only YOU can touch base with your spiritual self. Apparently you have taken ownership of that. Kudos to you.

 

This is my first visit re this thread and I have not read any posting here except yours and steve's. Our paths have crossed before on other threads but I am now perceiving a totally different blue eyed snake.

 

To cut to the chase, please move on the way you are doing now - spiritually. No one can walk your path for you. Only YOU can - moment to moment.

 

I had a discourse with my Guru-ji in India back in 2013 on living spiritually. We came to terms that these three aspects are important cyclically - knowledge, action and willpower (not in this order since it is a cycle). Over the years since, I have added honesty to energize the cyclical flow.

 

I perceive honesty in you...

 

The story from steve is pertinent to you - taking necessary step in allowing yourself to move forward.

 

You surely can - you have already started the ball rolling => forward.

 

- LimA

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Not really. Its neither tough, nor its opposite. Its what it is, like gravity - its a good way to learn responsibility while at the same time it helps to cultivate a mindset that reduces susceptibility to emotional blackmail. 

 

How is forgiveness "emotional blackmail"?

[C T]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

How is forgiveness "emotional blackmail"?

 

I did not say it was. In my experience, I have observed interactions between individuals that adopted it as an artform which can be used as leverage to gain a certain emotional advantage over another. Not saying it is fundamentally a means to that end, but it does happen to be misused frequently. 

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I did not say it was. In my experience, I have observed interactions between individuals that adopted it as an artform which can be used as leverage to gain a certain emotional advantage over another. Not saying it is fundamentally a means to that end, but it does happen to be misused frequently. 

 

Then we are talking about different things.  What you are describing is obviously not really forgiveness. Like I said before, forgiveness and letting go are two sides of the same coin.  Your having leverage over others as some sort of emotional black mail has nothing to do with forgiveness.

 

But, thanks for the discussion. I had never realized that buddhists never forgive or that it is not a part of the tradition. Would seem it be almost impossible to ever change karma at all if you never forgive or move on.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Jeff

[C T]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Then we are talking about different things.  What you are describing is obviously not really forgiveness. Like I said before, forgiveness and letting go are two sides of the same coin.  Your having leverage over others as some sort of emotional black mail has nothing to do with forgiveness.

 

But, thanks for the discussion. I had never realized that buddhists never forgive or that it is not a part of the tradition. Would seem it be almost impossible to ever change karma at all if you never forgive or move on.

 

I can understand how without sufficient knowledge of Buddhism and karma that one could come to a conclusion such as yours. 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Tough world view if there is only karma and no forgiveness.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a practical Buddhist - philosophically.

 

- LimA

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Jeff,

...

 

 

I am a practical Buddhist - philosophically.

 

- LimA

 

Thanks. Yes, two sides of the same coin...  

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Thanks. Yes, two sides of the same coin...

 

Hi Jeff,

 

No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority ~ hopefully with some responsibility.

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[C T]

In Buddhist view, a wicked man that others might seek to forgive, one who genuinely follows the Buddhadharma will see only the prevalence of ignorance, which, as the root cause or first principle of papa (Skt term to signify the downfall of man), can only be removed thru being made aware by means of receiving wholesome instructions (knowledge, or vidya) and practical applications of said instructions (Dhamma). 

 

In Buddhism there is no requirement to pinpoint and analyse exact faults - only that there are wholesome and unwholesome karma, and each individual the sole heir to that. There is no concept of sin in this tradition, therefore it follows that there is no necessity to contemplate notions related to that concept. 

[C T]

Mr Lim would perhaps be interested to open up a thread on practical Buddhism and share the views of Eckhart Tolle, Wayne Dyer and others there. 

Mr Anand Lim is always welcome to post quotes from authentic Buddhist sources here. 

 

Thanks. 

[Jeff]

21 minutes ago, C T said:

In Buddhist view, a wicked man that others might seek to forgive, one who genuinely follows the Buddhadharma will see only the prevalence of ignorance, which, as the root cause or first principle of papa (Skt term to signify the downfall of man), can only be removed thru being made aware by means of receiving wholesome instructions (knowledge, or vidya) and practical applications of said instructions (Dhamma). 

 

In Buddhism there is no requirement to pinpoint and analyse exact faults - only that there are wholesome and unwholesome karma, and each individual the sole heir to that. There is no concept of sin in this tradition, therefore it follows that there is no necessity to contemplate notions related to that concept. 

 

I dont see how the concept of sin relates to the forgiveness discussion.

 

Also, forgiveness is not about the other person who has theoretically done some wrong. It is not some bounty that you give to the other person (or emotionally blackmail them with). Forgiveness is your own letting go of the issue that binds you to the karma. It is the active facing of the issue/karma and letting it go.  Or like that quote stated, it is like compassion in (conscious) action.

 

But, this is your thread, so I will let it go.  Sorry to hear you will not forgive me for the intrusion.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Jeff