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Flowing Hands Interview Completed

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Core Background Questions:

a. What teaching/system/lineage has the interviewee been exposed to?


Expanded question: Is there a particular lineage associated with the temple where you connected with Li Erh? Are you thereby connected to the lineage or are you an "independent" when it comes to lineages?


I am also interested to know what sorts of rituals and practices are a part of this temple, and what the aspirations are of the monks who maintain it.


'Paradise Mountain' is the name that people used to call Mao Shan. It was a place for hermits and cultivators to go. Many seekers of the way went to Paradise mountain to find a teacher, including Lao Tzu. Now my lineage comes from Paradise mountain (Mao Shan) and was established through the religious practices that were founded by Chang Tao-ling. The actual sect is quite a new one as it was only established earlier in the 20th century. The three Immortals became 'bond brothers' so a belief system was established around those Immortals. The teaching system is as old as the Immortals are. The Monkey God became an Immortal some 2000 BCE, Lao Tzu was a very ancient Immortal before he reincarnated in 615 BCE. Their teachings I have inherited.


There are no monks or nuns attached to the temple. As in Lao Tzu's teachings, a person can learn far more by being an ordinary person, so we have lay shamans like myself, who live an ordinary life as well as a spiritual one. A committee of believers look after the temple and raise money to pay for the bills. Immortals birthdays people tend to celebrate, moon cake festival and the new year, but we don't have any fire walking etc. in the temple that I was accepted in. Mostly a resident shaman will have special days where he/she will invite the Immortal to come and believers will come to ask questions and ask for help and healing, this is quite common. I have not been back to the temple in Malaysia for many years perhaps people do things differently now?



b. What form of practices has the interviewee been exposed to? (qigong, alchemy, Taiji, shamanism, magic, etc)


The first thing that I learn't was martial art, I then was accepted as a shaman and I started to learn the Immortals 'fa' practices. He also started to teach me a neigong which I did every day at 5am to start my qi moving strongly. He also taught me 'enlightenment' and led me through to this and the establishing of the third eye. He taught me how to use the energy to see that which is unseen and to know things if I wanted to, that was not accessible for ordinary folks to see. He taught me how to use the energy he had given me and the energy I had cultivated. But to be wise in its use and only when necessary. Daoist must learn to have great restraint.



c. What is the interviewees most recent (last few years) interest in energy arts, self-cultivation, or spiritual practices? What is your current thoughts on Daoism in this modern day?


I have learn't over the years many styles of martial art, but principally I now stick to sword and Bow and Arrow Fist (Gong Jian Quan, Du Jian Quan), although I want to finish learning the Nine Rings Immortal Masters art.


Daoism is for all times, but for today we desperately need to have far more understanding within the societies of the world. People unfortunately are very attracted the the outward forms of Daoism; the clever tricks, the magic and so on, which are merely a distraction from the root. It is the root that will bind all peoples together and bring them back to a sense of who and what we are and how all things are connected to the one.




Cultivating the Heart:

Dao Xin: You have often talked about this being one of the most important issues in self-cultivation.

1. What you mean by a "sincere heart", how you cultivated it so far to draw the interest of immortals.


Dao xin is the process of cultivation to enlightenment and Dao ren. A sincere heart is one that loves, that loves all things good and bad, that makes no preference, who is soft and yielding. Attracting the attention of the Immortals can be done by having a true heart for wanting not for oneself or self gain, but to learn for the good of others.


2. How do you reconcile the challenging feelings generated when dealing with the harsher elements of human nature and life's ailments? Another way to put it is what do you do to recharge the heart when it has been challenged?



Having a faith is very important because life maybe very difficult sometimes and certainly the task I have is very difficult, one can retreat into the spirit world where the Immortals can help and guide me through challenging times. Over the years I have changed a great deal and become more hardened to the rougher ups and downs of life and just accept them with equal value. Hard and easy are just the same it is our perspectives that make them so.






You once said, "A spiritual entity is energy without a physical body. An Immortal is a energy entity that is extremely powerful. Cultivating this energy and a pure heart is the path to true enlightenment. This can be taught by an Immortal Master."


3. For those who cannot have a master, what do you recommend they focus their practice on?


I would say to focus on the teachings of Li Erh and apply them to your everyday life. Martial/spiritual and energy arts need a specialist teacher; finding one is difficult and many who dabble get into a right pickle.


4. Can higher energy and spiritual practices be done without a master?


I would say definitely no, a specialist teacher is needed.


5. Semen retention and Celibacy practices: Do you have any recommendations on this? Most of the practices known originate with Mantak Chia.


Again a teacher will advise you about celibacy and the type of things he/she is teaching you and of course is depends on the circumstance the person is in. When we are young and if we want to build our power then we have to go for years I'm afraid! Women are lucky they are not so affected!


There is a lot of history about practices which have been called visualization or alchemy practices.


6. What can you say about these as longevity practices?


To my way of thinking only long life can be obtained through spiritual enlightenment, physical long life is really very short. But the spirit can live forever. A good teacher needs to teach you these things, anything that involves energy of the body has the potential to go wrong very easily.



You once said, "You cannot refine Qi to shen".


7. How do you explain Jing/Essence, Qi/Energy, and Shen/Spirit?



Qi and shen are different


Jing is everything that one is, that has been inherited from the very beginning of our kind.

Qi is the force that is within each cell and powers our bodies. It is under constant change due to our environment, what we do and eat and how we breathe.

Shen is the spiritual essence or soul that we carry with us.


You have stated there is no such thing really as pre- and post-heaven Qi


8. How do you describe or explain or name the power that can be exhibited by high level practitioners or masters? Is that only from the 'chain of Qi' or is it a spiritual power (not a energetic power)?


I am not going to give you a proper answer to this as this is high level understanding and I'm not giving away the secrets of the universe!


High level cultivation of qi can produce electricity in the body that can be used to do lots of things. One needs to cultivate this power on a daily basis under supervision. Once you are powerful only the body limits the amount of volts it can run on, so there is a limit and this power can ebb and flow like the rest of life. One cannot simply gain this power by doing exercises, the body literally has to change over many years to be able to hold this power within it. People who think the road to having such power is easy have to think again. It involves finding a very good teacher willing to teach, it involves years of celibacy and after thirty years of practice one may have enough volts to set fire to paper! But I think this is a waste of life and this does not lead to enlightenment or real power. When the body dies and if the spirit has been cultivated for a life time, the spirit will have limitless power, beyond ones imagination. So I don't cultivate my power to do tricks, but I cultivate it for the after life, where such power will be at my hands that the sun would seem only to be a spark. Only a wise and good hearted person can have such power.



9. What is the most extraordinary experience you have had?



Here is one of the most extraordinary experience I had which was when I was young and I was cycling along a road with alot of weight on the bike. As I came along the road, it suddenly became a very steep downhill with a sharp bend on the end of it. One of the wheels on the bike was not quite true, so under heavy braking it made the bike wobble. As I went down the hill, I could not slow down and I was heading for this sharp bend with cars behind me and coming up the other way. I knew then that at the speed I was going I would come off and have perhaps a fatal accident. Before I reached the bend the bike suddenly slowed to a gentle halt as if some invisible hand had been placed on the bike and slowed it down to a halt. As I realized what had happened I smelt the strong scent of incense and I knew the Immortal master had saved me. There are many stories about the Immortal masters who will save believers in life and death circumstances. In Malaysia a woman who was of the same sect as me was walking home one night when she was attacked by a gang of men. As the attack started she cried out to the Immortal master for help who then instantly possessed her and threw all the men around like bits of paper. When the police arrived they found all these men half unconscious after receiving a beating!





In relation to Zhuangzi’s story of Hu Tzu and the Shaman

10. How does Zhuangzi distinguish between a Shaman and a Wayfarer?

11. How can one claim Shamanism is Taoism?

12. How does the modern Taoist practically apply this section?

13. Is Shamanism for today? Can one start on the path of a Shaman?


Like I was saying about Mao Shan and the hermits and cultivators that lived there. People can go different ways in their practice. A shaman relies on a spirit to tell him/her what to do and an experienced shaman with their own power can'see' what is wrong with someone. Now Chuang Tzu shows us the two differing sides. The master has developed his qi to the extent that he is able to adjust and control all his vital functions. The shaman sees the master in these varying states until the last time when the master uses his qi to go beyond human energy and show the beginning of all things. When the shaman sees this he is frightened and runs away. So here we have two ways of using energy and the masters cultivation was very high.


Before there was a word for Daoism there was shamanism; a spirit led perception of nature and the world around. Out of this fundamental observation of nature emerged the idea of following a way that made life easier to live and to rest in. So we have the belief in the spirit of life along with the wisdom of life. Therefore emerged a system of thinking that incorporated the spiritual and the practical. They are not inseparable, but first came the spiritual with shamanism and then the wisdom came from this. The well known yin/yang symbol of Daoism was directly taken from shamanism, as was the eight triagrams and the I ching. When reading the DDJ one must view it as a practical and deeply spiritual work that incorporates the spiritual essence of life and the practical application.


The best way to apply this is to see life not in a mundane way and see how special life is, each life being a product of millions of years of miraculous development; see life as a product of energy combined with matter and how very special that is.


Of course, it is for ever. Have a sincere belief or develop a belief in the Immortals and when it is time, your fate will take you to a point where you will be presented with the opportunity to become a shaman.




14. What are the nine teachings of Daoism?


The nine teachings of Daoism


1 The soft and yielding can overcome the hard and the strong; the female principle.

2 Hold all life as equal and sacred

3 Understanding the Tai Ji/ the cosmos beginning

4 Understanding wu wei and its applications

5 Understanding 'emptiness'

6 Understanding the 'self' and others

7 Understanding the path of the Dao ren.

8 Self cultivation practices of energy

9 Understanding Dao xin

15. Do we have past lives, and if yes, can we remember them?


Yes we do and sometimes the past life can be glimpsed in our perspectives and behavior. In my previous life I was an Immortal. When I was young I knew there was something 'odd' about me, I could see people in the sky and spent many hours daydreaming. I always knew that someone was looking after me, even though that someone I did not know. Many indigenous people would have recognized this straight away, for they would have seen the signs and taken me, even as a small boy, to the medicine man.




The DDJ and Laozi:

The five themes in the DDJ you mentioned before:

1 the self
2 the female principle
3 the spirit/ energy
4 politics and human wisdom
5 enlightenment and spiritual cultivation


16. Can you summarize or comment briefly on each?


The self is the most important theme here of all five. This is why as Daoists we must encounter challenges to help us understand others and ourselves.


The female principle is about being humble, being soft and caring, of making ourselves like water, of bearing and teaching but not possessing.


Spirit/energy ; knowing and being able to recognize that all life has energy and a spirit. Having this perspective one can begin to understand the nature of all things.



You said that Laozi had a teacher from Mao Shan.

17. Can you relate more information?


Li Erh as a young man went to Paradise Mountain, seeking a teacher. Remember that Li Erh was a great man, the incarnation of an Immortal. So he had a head start! He went to Paradise Mountain and amongst the hermits he met Li Bo. Li Bo recognized that he had great potential and took him as a student. He spent many years there and also received teachings from other Sages, hermits and Shamans that lived or spent time on that mountain. After some years he left and rejoined the civilized world in Loyang, where he became the keeper of the archives and married. We must not confuse the Li Bo who established the belief in Liu Ren Xian Shi on Mao Shan, many years later.



You once said, "If one wants to become enlightened one really only needs these two chapters, (1 and 52):


18. Can you briefly comment on the main point you would make?


Enlightenment and spiritual cultivation; well what a book for both of those! The list is endless and it starts with the self.


Also See question # 20.


You once said the DDJ is "deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things."


Politics and human behaviour:

It is very important that a country is run and operated with deep spiritual understanding and wisdom. We see today modern politicians are devoid of any spirituality and only look at economics. We see a world divided by the few who have enormous wealth and the many who are starving. With wisdom and spirituality a country can be run so no one starves, but no one is extremely rich where peoples values are placed on being a better person not on how many Ferrari's one has in the garage! So Li Erh suggests many things on how to rule a country, but in Li Erh's time there were not the enormous amounts of people populating the earth, nor the material gadgets etc. that people aspire to nowadays, but the principle still holds today. " Don't look for profit but feel the Dao in your heart". " Go with the present, but keep a firm grip on the Dao". There are so many quotes in the DDJ about the self and material possessions and returning to simplicity, that they are too long to list here.



19. Is it also a political treatise for the ruler (as a reflection of a belief system for ruling)?

Not really, but a way of cultivating the self. If a ruler then cultivates the self then they will be a better ruler. Of course Li Erh advocates that people should not think material possessions are better than the Dao and so one has the complication of how to apply the Dao in ruling a country, but really very little emphasis is played on politics, Daoist are really non political, but more to the left than the right, if one was to try and categorize them.



20. Which chapters do you recommend beyond 1 and 52?


Verse one tells us everything we need to know, verse 52 gives us a way to that path. Verse 83 shows us the basic stance and way.



Spirits and Immortals:


21. What can you relate about spirits and immortals in Heaven?


You once said: "The Buddha's may live in the western paradise but they have to come under the control of the Daoist Heaven. We must remember that some of the Daoist Immortals predate even the existence of our Earth.


I do know there are far more ancient masters that are Immortals that generally people have never heard of."


22. Can you comment more on this?



There are many levels of spirits and Immortals. First there are the earthly spirits that live on the earth. These can be benign or they can be evil. These spirits can be very old, they can be half animal and half human, they can be of any living thing as well as human.

Deities are the next level who live in the sky, but haven't achieved the level of 'Immortal'.

We then go further up into the sky and we have the lower levels of Immortals who live in the Eastern Heaven and the Southern Heaven. Above them we then have the top level of Immortals in Both of these Heavens. In the South we Have Quan Yin and other Buddha's. In the West we have all Buddhist's. In the North we have One Daoist and many other religions like Christians and Hindu's. There are no Muslims or any other religion. Amongst the stars we have Immortals that live ether on or around that star. We have Immortals that live outside the Heavenly void who are very ancient, they were never alive, but have always been spirits, created at the dawn of creation itself.

Now these Immortals do not concern themselves with the ebb and flow of life anywhere, but the Immortals in Heaven do. So we have The supreme ruler over the four Heavens The Jade Emperor, he decides whether there is to be any interference with the world from the Heavens. All spirits that come to the Heavens are appointed their title and role by him. So if you become a Buddha, it is the Jade Emperor who will appoint you and send you off to the western Heaven. It is the same with Immortals, it is the Jade Emperor who will appoint you the title of Immortal and give you your class according to the level of achievement.



You once said: "I have communicated with Quan Yin on many occasions over the years, as one of my Masters was her student (Chi Tien Da Shen).

Her Pure Path Sect has practices that help people to further themselves towards Bhudda-hood. Quan Yin is the Goddess of great mercy and she will help people or any life if they are sincere in their asking. She lives in the Southern Heaven, ie one would look up to the sky to the South. She is a real spiritual entity and I do know some stories and first hand accounts of her Temple in Melaka, Malaysia, as well as my own experiences. "


23. Can you share more about her?



I was in Malaysia and I went to one of Quan Yin's many temples there. This was run by monks and nuns. My mentor said to me if you have a faith in Quan Yin, why don't you ask her any questions you want to by using the yarrow sticks. Now at that time I was not a shaman, but I had belief. I burned the incense and knelt down in front of Quan Yin's idol. I said my prayer and asked my questions. I then took up the pot of yarrow stalks, it was about 30-35 cm long. I gently shook the pot and to my amazement a stick came out, I threw the kidney shaped pieces of wood to see whether this was the right stick, they have to land properly otherwise you have to do it again. Anyway it was right so I bowed my thanks and gave the stick to one of the monks. He went to one of the endless draws and produced a piece of paper which my mentor read to me. It had answered my question to my amazement.

Some time back, a Christian man used to walk past Quan Yin's temple and spit at the door every day in contempt. This went on for a long time, until one day there was a commotion and the man was seen flying into the temple forecourt where he suddenly went to his knees in front of the incense pot and placed his head to the ground. The people there tried to get him up, but they could not move him, it was if an unseen hand had pressed him into that position. After some time he was able to get up, shaken and distressed he left the temple, but every day from then on he bowed his head as he passed the temple door!


Quan Yin carries with her a vase that contains holy water that she uses to heal people with. She also has a bird as a companion. Sometimes Immortals have animal companions. If one believes in Quan Yin one can face the southern Heaven and pray to her. If you are sincere in your belief, she may help you face or overcome your problems. She has great compassion for all living things.



You once said, " I once had the great honor to speak with an Immortal called 'The Old Wise Immortal of Flowering Blossom Mountain', he had been an Immortal for over 100,000 years! We know that spiritual, and energy practices stretch back a very long way"


24. Have the energy practices changed that much or has much been lost?


Not really they have become more refined and more detailed, but there has been too many diversification so the basics are sometimes lost.



There is a video of begging for the immortal to come and draw the Fu. But you have mentioned communicating with spirit masters or immortals as above.


25. What is it like and what form does it take when the spirit master comes to you? How do you know when he/she has come?



When the Immortal Master comes he comes physically in the sense that he/she will move you physically, you cannot stop them moving you, you have little doubt. They can come as a human or any other animal and I have experienced this also. But usually they come as a spirit, for this is where they are now. They will overtake you, so you have no control of your body for instance if in a trance. In the video, the Immortal master is just moving my arms, it is not necessary to go into a trance to draw the Holy amulets and water.



Future Events:


Your website show a cataclysmic event.

26. Can you explain how you came to this vision and what you hope to accomplish with this information?

27. What can average folks or practitioners do?



Now the horrible bit


When I was 25 I had been a shaman for over a year and I begged the Immortal master to come to draw the Holy amulets and water to build up my fa. One day I thought I would try something different; the learning meditation, which involves prayer and then begging the Immortal master to come to show you and teach you things during meditation. This was the first time I had tried this and as the Immortal master came to me, for I knew, as he had made his presence known physically , so I went into deep meditation. Suddenly I was in the sky, everything was clear and vivid and then an enormous mushroom cloud of a nuclear bomb came into my vision. It was horrific, for I was given the feeling that this was not just a test but a world altering event. I opened my eyes to get away from this terrible vision. Afterwards I had it on my mind and could not get rid of what I was shown. As time went on the Immortal master talked to me about what he had shown me and as time has gone on, so more and more information he has given me. Now I am in possession of what is going to happen and how it will happen. Events already are coming together and pointing at the last stages of this, it is quite easy to see if one looks at world events that are happening even now. There are significant events: the twin towers, the loss of the Malaysian airliner, the greater and more prominent threat of terrorists and the European important city that will be targeted.

The only hope we have is that the West does not strike back with nuclear weapons, otherwise, from this singular nuclear strike, all hell will break loose.


Personally nothing can be done, but if you know a politician in Europe, get them to see my website.

But who would believe a shaman?


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Thank you, sifu Flowing Hands. Your answers have touched me deeply.


(And thank you, dawei, for orchestrating this interview.)

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I realized the other day that on some threads I have clearly stated that I'm not from the Mao Shun Sect. When I said this I mean from the sect that is current today, but obviously my roots are from this mountain retreat and those teachings that I follow and practice originally came from Mao Shun (Paradise Mountain). Old Paradise Mountain teachings, yes, modern Mao Shun, no. :)

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I realized the other day that on some threads I have clearly stated that I'm not from the Mao Shun Sect. When I said this I mean from the sect that is current today, but obviously my roots are from this mountain retreat and those teachings that I follow and practice originally came from Mao Shun (Paradise Mountain). Old Paradise Mountain teachings, yes, modern Mao Shun, no. :)


I did some research on Mount Mao based on the interview. It seems very hard to find truly ancient origins for it. I'll send you some info I found and how we can maybe discuss it.

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I did some research on Mount Mao based on the interview. It seems very hard to find truly ancient origins for it. I'll send you some info I found and how we can maybe discuss it.

OK I look forward to what you have!

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Bumping and marking this topic, thank you for the wisdom shared in this thread. I am grateful to have come across it today.

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