Evolution vs. Creationism. Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham.

[Marblehead]

There is only proof in mathematics.

That is not correct. It is a fact that all lemur species are of the same original species that once lived in Africa but became extinct there.

 

It is a fact that all fruit fly species on Hawaii are are of the same original species, likely from Asia.

 

These original species evolve into different species in order to take advantage of resources that their parent species is unable to utilize.

 

There are countless species that have been identified as having evolved from other species. The islands of the Galapagos as well as the island of Madagascar are perfect examples of evolution. Until humans arrived at both places nearly 95% of the species on the two were distinct species that had evolved from other species and could be found only on those islands.

 

And there are many other places on the planet where the processes of evolution can be directly observed.

 

Neither Darwin nor Wallace had a math background. They were firstly biologists. They observed in real life what they wrote about.

[KenBrace]

That is not correct. It is a fact that all lemur species are of the same original species that once lived in Africa but became extinct there.

 

It is a fact that all fruit fly species on Hawaii are are of the same original species, likely from Asia.

 

These original species evolve into different species in order to take advantage of resources that their parent species is unable to utilize.

 

There are countless species that have been identified as having evolved from other species. The islands of the Galapagos as well as the island of Madagascar are perfect examples of evolution. Until humans arrived at both places nearly 95% of the species on the two were distinct species that had evolved from other species and could be found only on those islands.

 

And there are many other places on the planet where the processes of evolution can be directly observed.

 

Neither Darwin nor Wallace had a math background. They were firstly biologists. They observed in real life what they wrote about.

 

I think you are mistaking evidence for proof. There is a difference between the two. Nothing is ever proven in science. You can only gather evidence to further support a theory or law.

 

Also there is only direct evidence of microevolution. There is evidence for macroevolution (the fossil record for example) but it has not been directly observed to occur.

[Marblehead]

Hi Ken,

 

I get to disagree with you. Yea!!!

 

Evidence of a fact. Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. The proof is the evidence.

 

A lot of things have been proven using the scientific methods. Earth used to be the center of the Universe. We now have proof supporting the fact that it is not. It is really rather insignificant as compared to the totality of the universe.

 

The process of evolution has been observed in species that live only a short time. Fruit flies, for example.

 

DNA can also track the processes of evolution. This has been used many times.

[KenBrace]

Hi Ken,

 

I get to disagree with you. Yea!!!

 

Evidence of a fact. Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. The proof is the evidence.

 

A lot of things have been proven using the scientific methods. Earth used to be the center of the Universe. We now have proof supporting the fact that it is not. It is really rather insignificant as compared to the totality of the universe.

 

The process of evolution has been observed in species that live only a short time. Fruit flies, for example.

 

DNA can also track the processes of evolution. This has been used many times.

 

Wrong. There is no such thing as PROOF in science. No matter how much data is gathered to support a scientific theory or law there is always a possibility that scientists have missed something, made an error, misinterpreted evidence, etc. Now please don't get me wrong. There is more evidence for evolution than any other theory for how life came about so it is what I believe but it isn't a fact. A fact is something that can be proven. Nothing in science can be 100% proven because once again there is always a chance that the scientists have made an error or missed something. However if you want to be like a religious person and dogmatically claim that what you believe is 100% fact then more power to you.

 

Btw you need to back up your claims with sources. You saying that fruit flies have been directly observed to evolve into a different species doesn't hold much weight. You need to give your sources.

[Marblehead]

And now I have to say that you are wrong. Of course there is proof. My chair exists as a chair and the proof of this fact is that my ass isn't on the floor.

 

So are you suggesting that the Earth may well still be the center of the Universe?

 

And I repeat a quote from Carl Sagan I enjoy posting: "Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact." BTW He was the first person ever to be declared a PhD of Astrobiology. There now are many.

 

I state that paper will burn if it is not wet and ignition heat is applied and the air movement is not great enough to prevent the ignition. That is a 100% fact. It is reproducable and stands to the test every time.

 

Yes, there is certain kinowledge that I am 100% sure support facts. I have gathered many personal experiences. And please do not confuse investigative knowledge with religious dogma. That is totally wrong. No comparison.

 

I don't need to back up anything I say. No, I don't need to give my source. You don't believe it? Prove me wrong. Yes, "prove" me wrong, don't just say I am wrong. That doesn't hold any water with me.

 

Prove to me that water isn't wet.

 

Ah!, the fruit flies and the finches. Many different species. BTW There is only one species of humans. All can reproduce with all the others. These different species of fruit flies and finches can no longer reproduce with each of the other species. And that is a fact.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Marblehead

[KenBrace]

And now I have to say that you are wrong. Of course there is proof. My chair exists as a chair and the proof of this fact is that my ass isn't on the floor.

 

So are you suggesting that the Earth may well still be the center of the Universe?

 

And I repeat a quote from Carl Sagan I enjoy posting: "Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact." BTW He was the first person ever to be declared a PhD of Astrobiology. There now are many.

 

I state that paper will burn if it is not wet and ignition heat is applied and the air movement is not great enough to prevent the ignition. That is a 100% fact. It is reproducable and stands to the test every time.

 

Yes, there is certain kinowledge that I am 100% sure support facts. I have gathered many personal experiences. And please do not confuse investigative knowledge with religious dogma. That is totally wrong. No comparison.

 

I don't need to back ip anything I say. No, I don't need to give my source. You don't believe it? Prove me wrong. Yes, "prove" me wrong, don't just say I am wrong. That doesn't hold any water with me.

 

Prove to me that water isn't wet.

 

Ah!, the fruit flies and the finches. Many different species. BTW There is only one species of humans. All can reproduce with all the others. These different species of fruit flies and finches can no longer reproduce with each of the other species. And that is a fact.

 

If you claim that there is evidence to support a previously made statement then it is your responsibility to back up your evidence with sources. This is because for all I know you could be lying, getting data from an unreliable source, etc. Allow me to give an example...

 

Creationism is a fact. Scientists have discovered Noah's ark, evidence of the Exodus, and proof that the story of Joseph is true.

I don't need to back up anything I say. No, I don't need to give my source. You don't believe it? Prove me wrong. Yes, "prove" me wrong, don't just say I am wrong. That doesn't hold any water with me.

 

[Marblehead]

And your rebuttal doesn't hold any water with me.

 

Why do you want me to do your work for you? Wasn't it enough that somebody else wrote the Bible for you?

 

You are welcome to keep the answers you currently have. Or, you can ask questions. If your cup is already full nothing more can be added.

 

It's true, religious people don't have to back up anything they say because they have faith. What good is proof when you have faith?

 

There are truths behind most of the stories in the Bible. But the stories are not true. Those are the myths that grew out of the truths.

 

Nearly every civilization has its own creation myth. This is because these civilizations had different question therefore they needed different answers.

 

I stopped reading mythology when I was a teenager.

 

There is no reason to blindly believe in "creation" if one understands the processes in nature. Taoism is a nature focused belief system. And this includes the nature of the human animal.

[KenBrace]

And your rebuttal doesn't hold any water with me.

 

Why do you want me to do your work for you? Wasn't it enough that somebody else wrote the Bible for you?

 

You are welcome to keep the answers you currently have. Or, you can ask questions. If your cup is already full nothing more can be added.

 

It's true, religious people don't have to back up anything they say because they have faith. What good is proof when you have faith?

 

There are truths behind most of the stories in the Bible. But the stories are not true. Those are the myths that grew out of the truths.

 

Nearly every civilization has its own creation myth. This is because these civilizations had different question therefore they needed different answers.

 

I stopped reading mythology when I was a teenager.

 

There is no reason to blindly believe in "creation" if one understands the processes in nature. Taoism is a nature focused belief system. And this includes the nature of the human animal.

I think you're missing my point. Evolution is not a fact. You can pretend that it is but it is nothing more than a theory with evidence to support it. You can be 99% or 99.99% sure that something is true but you can never know 100% that it is a fact.

 

EDIT: You can be 100% sure about something but all it doesn't make it 100% true. Nothing is ever a 100% fact.

Edited March 15, 2014 by KenBrace

[Marblehead]

I think you're missing my point. Evolution is not a fact. You can pretend that it is but it is nothing more than a theory with evidence to support it. You can be 99% or 99.99% sure that something is true but you can never know 100% that it is a fact.

NO, I'm not missing your point. I am ignoring it because it holds no water.

 

I have already given you examples of things I am 100% sure of. I have already given you examples of facts. I have already offered you example of evolution.

 

But for whatever the reason you refuse to consider them. Is it because they all are counter to your belief's dogma?

 

You can remain agnostic if you wish. That's fine. But there are those who feel they know. And I would rather take the word of a person with a PhD in Astrobiology than I would the word of someone who is only repeating religious dogma.

 

But then, there are some Theoretical Physicists that I think have walked off the edge of the earth and are now in LaLa land.

[ralis]

I want to know what position KenBrace takes in regards to evolution. Straight forward answers only.

[Marblehead]

I want to know what position KenBrace takes in regards to evolution. Straight forward answers only.

I was wondering when you were going to get involved in this discussion. Hehehe.

[ralis]

I was wondering when you were going to get involved in this discussion. Hehehe.

 

Just been observing the discussion. Hope I have an answer that I requested.

[Marblehead]

Just been observing the discussion. Hope I have an answer that I requested.

Yes, I saw you.

 

And yes, it is a fair question.

[KenBrace]

NO, I'm not missing your point. I am ignoring it because it holds no water.

 

I have already given you examples of things I am 100% sure of. I have already given you examples of facts. I have already offered you example of evolution.

 

But for whatever the reason you refuse to consider them. Is it because they all are counter to your belief's dogma?

 

You can remain agnostic if you wish. That's fine. But there are those who feel they know. And I would rather take the word of a person with a PhD in Astrobiology than I would the word of someone who is only repeating religious dogma.

 

But then, there are some Theoretical Physicists that I think have walked off the edge of the earth and are now in LaLa land.

The fact that you are sitting in a chair (assuming you still are) is a 99.999999999% fact. There so much evidence to support the idea that it exists and that you are sitting in it that it is almost a 100% fact, but it's not. However for the convenience of our everyday lives it is easier to just call things that are 99.99999% true, facts. Just remember that they aren't and that there is a 0.000000001% chance that you might wrong about certain things.

 

Another thing that annoys me is that people way over-rate evolutionary evidence. Why isn't Relativity, etc. given the same amount of esteem when evidence is gathered to support it. When experiments support Relativity people go "Oh wow. Relativity might be a viable theory." But no when some evidence is found that supports evolution people go "Well that sums it. This is no longer a theory. In fact it is beyond a scientific law. It is a 100% FACT! No questions. No more evidence needed. There is nothing that can change our minds because evolution is a 100% FACT!!! Not 99.9999999999999999999% but 100%!" People don't treat evolution fairly. There is more evidence to support Relativity than there is to support Evolution but yet Relativity is only a theory while Evolution is a FACT.

Edited March 15, 2014 by KenBrace

[KenBrace]

I want to know what position KenBrace takes in regards to evolution. Straight forward answers only.

 

In my opinion the theory of evolution is supported with more evidence than any other theory and I therefore believe it. I not however consider it (or any or theory/law in science) to be a 100% fact.

[Marblehead]

The fact that you are sitting in a chair (assuming you still are) is a 99.999999999% fact. There so much evidence to support the idea that it exists and that you are sitting in it that it is almost a 100% fact, but it's not. However for the convenience of our everyday lives it is easier to just call things that are 99.99999% true, facts. Just remember that they aren't and that there is a 0.000000001% chance that you might wrong about certain things.

 

Another thing that annoys me is that people way over-rate evolutionary evidence. Why isn't Relativity, etc. given the same amount of esteem when evidence is gathered to support it. When experiments support Relativity people go "Oh wow. Relativity might be a viable theory." But no when some evidence is found that supports evolution people go "Well that sums it. This is no longer a theory. In fact it is beyond a scientific law. It is a 100% FACT! No questions. No more evidence needed. There is nothing that can change our minds because evolution is a 100% FACT!!! Not 99.9999999999999999999% but 100%!" People don't treat evolution fairly. There is more evidence to support Relativity than there is to support Evolution but yet Relativity is only a theory while Evolution is a FACT.

Fair rebuttal.

 

Relativity is not a theory; it is a fact. I didn't quote anyone saying that because I'm not sure anyone has. But I just said it.

 

And gravity sucks. We all know that.

 

No, I'm not hung up on the fact of evolution nor am I hung up on relativity. I am held here by gravity though.

 

The only reason I speak often of evolution is that it is a truth and religion, especially many sects of the Christian religion refuse to accept it fearing it will tarnish their precious dogma. Evolution is only one of the millions of processes in nature.

 

But religions want to force feed the children false information. This is totally wrong and I will speak out against it whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

Yes, my chair exists. No doubt about that. As does this computer who's keyboard I am currently typing on. Those are facts. Without oxygen to breathe I would die. That is a fact.

 

There are many facts which can be spoken. Test and try before you buy.

[Marblehead]

I not however consider it (or any or theory/law in science) to be a 100% fact.

Hehehe. I figured that out already.

[KenBrace]

Fair rebuttal.

 

Relativity is not a theory; it is a fact. I didn't quote anyone saying that because I'm not sure anyone has. But I just said it.

 

And gravity sucks. We all know that.

 

No, I'm not hung up on the fact of evolution nor am I hung up on relativity. I am held here by gravity though.

 

The only reason I speak often of evolution is that it is a truth and religion, especially many sects of the Christian religion refuse to accept it fearing it will tarnish their precious dogma. Evolution is only one of the millions of processes in nature.

 

But religions want to force feed the children false information. This is totally wrong and I will speak out against it whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

Yes, my chair exists. No doubt about that. As does this computer who's keyboard I am currently typing on. Those are facts. Without oxygen to breathe I would die. That is a fact.

 

There are many facts which can be spoken. Test and try before you buy.

I am not saying that I can disprove the idea that you need oxygen to breathe because it is 99.99999999999999% true based on the ridiculous amount of evidence to support it. For the sake of convenience I myself would call it a fact but in truth nothing in science is ever 100% proven. It is only supported with data until there is so much evidence to support it that we move on. Edited March 15, 2014 by KenBrace

[KenBrace]

And yes I am also sure about the "facts" you mentioned above, just not 100% sure.

[Marblehead]

And yes I am also sure about the "facts" you mentioned above, just not 100% sure.

That's okay. Keep the faith, you'll get there.

[KenBrace]

That's okay. Keep the faith, you'll get there.

Not sure exactly what you mean but are you saying that I should eventually come to the realization that things are 100% facts once they've been supported by a decent amount of data?

 

EDIT: I will never be 100% sure about anything. Only 99.99...% sure which is enough to consider it a fact and move on.

Edited March 15, 2014 by KenBrace

[ralis]

Not sure exactly what you mean but are you saying that I should eventually come to the realization that things are 100% facts once they've been supported by a decent amount of data?

 

Just curious. Are you an academic or degrees in advanced science/math?

Edited March 15, 2014 by ralis

[Marblehead]

Ah!, you felt the feather tickling the back of your ear. Good.

 

Yes, we each must live according to our own standards and understandings. But we must be sure our standards have value and that our understandings are valid.

 

I'll bet no never hesitate before sitting in a chair and ponder the question of whether or not the chair is really a chair. 99.99~ is good enough, I think.

[KenBrace]

Just curious, are you an academic or degrees in advanced science/math?

 

No. I've taken honors physics, biology, chemistry, and college level math in high school but I do not have a degree in advanced physics, math, etc.

[Marblehead]

Just curious. Are you an academic or degrees in advanced science/math?

Hey Ralis, I have a BA in BS. How qualified is that?