Chapter 1, Section 4 Concepts

[Marblehead]

Chapter 1: Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease

 

Section 4: Names are like guests of reality -

 

Concepts discussed in Chapter 1, Section 4 are:

 

Usefulness as a test of value

 

 

 

http://oaks.nvg.org/zhuangzi1-.html

 

(Link to James Legge's translation of Chuang Tzu, Chapter 1)

[ChiDragon]

 

4: Names are like guests of reality -

Yao, proposing to resign the throne to Hsü Yu, said,

'When the sun and moon have come forth, if the torches have not been put out, would it not be difficult for them to give light? When the seasonal rains are coming down, if we still keep watering the ground, will not our toil be labour lost for all the good it will do? Do you, Master, stand forth (as sovereign), and the kingdom will (at once) be well governed. If I still (continue to) preside over it, I must look on myself as vainly occupying the place; – I beg to resign the throne to you.'

Hsü Yu said,

'You, Sir, govern the kingdom, and the kingdom is well governed. If I in these circumstances take your place, shall I not be doing so for the sake of the name? But the name is but the guest of the reality; – shall I be playing the part of the guest? The tailor-bird makes its nest in the deep forest, but only uses a single branch; the mole drinks from the Ho, but only takes what fills its belly. Return and rest in being ruler, – I will have nothing to do with the throne. Though the cook were not attending to his kitchen, the representative of the dead and the officer of prayer would not leave their cups and stands to take his place.'

 

I would like to clarify something here and rephrase.

 

In case one wants to know what the "Ho" is...??? It means river.

"The mole drinks from the river."

 

"the representative of the dead and the officer of prayer"

Should be translated as "the master of the ritual ceremony for the dead"

 

 

The metaphor is suggesting that in order to be a "Free Wanderer", one need to stay away from politics even though a highest office such a throne was offered. Thu this symbolize ZZ's philosophy for one to be a complete "Free Wanderer" by not assuming somebody else's responsibility.

[ChiDragon]

All the sections in Chapter One are pertaining to the "Free Wandered". One may think that was all about "transformation" but it can be, only, forced to fit first three sections only. However, it seems to me that nobody can come across to section 4 with that idea.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I had to stretch it a little bit to put the concept of "usefulness" in this section but the alluding to it allowed me to do it.

 

I agree that "transformation is not mentioned or alluded to in this section.

 

I will suggest that the concept of "knowing when one has enough" is alluded to here though. (Giles didn't mention it so I didn't either.)

[Stosh]

One can however ,see that the peon doesn't think the station of king

to be actually better than his own. He happily drinks from the ho just enough.

He refuses to be sucked in by the lofty title. The illusion of king ship is of no usefulness.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Very well stated Stosh.

[ChiDragon]

I agree that "transformation is not mentioned or alluded to in this section.

 

I will suggest that the concept of "knowing when one has enough" is alluded to here though. (Giles didn't mention it so I didn't either.)

 

The reason they weren't mentioned is because they do not apply here..........!!!

[Marblehead]

 

The reason they weren't mentioned is because they do not apply here..........!!!

Hehehe. How good can you get?

[dawei]

Sorry... there is transformation here... forget the mole and the bird; they are already there...

 

It is Yao who transforms... that is the point of bring in Yao. He gets beyond the limits of "useful" and "useless".

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. How good can you get?

 

I'm good as long as I don't use a hammer to force fit everything.

[dawei]

It naturally fits. It is ZZ version of wu-wei...

 

ZZ already played the card with the story of Yao when Yu essentially says "Forget it"...

 

If one knows the history and the coming chapters... then one will understand why almost all writers on Zhuangzi also see it at this point:

 

--

 

Yao brought order to the people of the world and directed the government of all within the seas. But he went to see the Four Masters of the far away Gushe Mountain, [and when he got home] north of the Fen River, he was dazed and had forgotten his kingdom there.

- Burton

This is what Zhuangzi calls smoothing out on the whetstone of heaven: “Forget the years, forget duty, be shaken into motion by the limitless, and so things find their lodging-places in the limitless. What is meant by ‘Smooth them out on the whetstone of Heaven’? Treat as ‘it’ even what is not, treat as ‘so’ even what is not.”

- Graham

“’I make progress.’ ’Where?’ ’I just sit and forget.’ ... ‘What do you mean, just sit and forget?’ ‘I let organs and members drop away, dismiss eyesight and hearing, part from the body and expel knowledge, and go along with the universal thoroughfare. This is what I mean by “just sit and forget”.’ ‘If you go along with it, you have no preferences; if you let yourself transform, you have no norms.

- Graham

’I shall no longer exist’ to something like ’In losing selfhood I shall remain what at bottom I have always been, identical with all the endlessly transforming phenomena of the universe.’

- Graham

In Zhuangzi’s opinion, the world was in continuous transformation, so all demarcation between one state/form and another, or solid distinctions between self and other, were false.

- Haiming

[Marblehead]

It naturally fits. It is ZZ version of wu-wei...

Thanks for the research Dawei.

 

I don't feel totally comfortable with all the quotes but that's okay 'cause it is just me.

 

I suppose that one could say that Yao had transformed internally and wanted to transform externally as well but found no one to assume his time/space.

[dawei]

Thanks for the research Dawei.

 

I don't feel totally comfortable with all the quotes but that's okay 'cause it is just me.

 

I suppose that one could say that Yao had transformed internally and wanted to transform externally as well but found no one to assume his time/space.

 

I don't think it was so much that he couldn't find someone to assume his time/space but he had not yet realized his own time/space but was tied to 'worldly affairs' as ZZ later quotes someone as saying misses the mark.

 

The more we go through these sections, I like what Rene constructed as the 'actors'... Liezi was not the final step as he was limited himself.. he was not yet completely 'free' to forget.

[Marblehead]

I don't think it was so much that he couldn't find someone to assume his time/space but he had not yet realized his own time/space but was tied to 'worldly affairs' as ZZ later quotes someone as saying misses the mark.

Okay. You stepped one step further back than I did. Good.

 

The more we go through these sections, I like what Rene constructed as the 'actors'... Liezi was not the final step as he was limited himself.. he was not yet completely 'free' to forget.

Yes, Rene is good for this study because she will surely point out where there is a difference between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

But then, in this "real world" of ours it is almost required that we limit ourselves.

 

Hehehe. "Free to forget." What a powerful thought. No, I'm not there.

[ChiDragon]

The key to be a "Free Wanderer" is to be independent of all attachments. If any affair engaged to an attachment with limitations, then one is not free. ZZ has sat up many examples in this chapter indicating who has an attachment and who was not.

[rene]

You guys (yeah, all of you, starting with Zz, lol) make everything so complicated... so many meanings, so little time.

This section reminded me of pieces of Lz - knowing when to stop, work is done then forgotten, blue on black, match on a fire, well okay not those last two; I was listening to KennyWayneShephard this morning. But actually - those fit in.

No need to over-govern, if things are going well - doing more would only be extraneous; putting in a new ruler is wasted energy. Like tossing a lit match into a campfire. Superfluous.

 

[Marblehead]

The key to be a "Free Wanderer" is to be independent of all attachments. If any affair engaged to an attachment with limitations, then one is not free. ZZ has sat up many examples in this chapter indicating who has an attachment and who was not.

Yes, I have attachments. No, I am not a free wanderer. But I'm still an Anarchist. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

You guys (yeah, all of you, starting with Zz, lol) make everything so complicated... so many meanings, so little time.

 

 

Yeah, well, some of us need help so we call in Chuang Tzu. Hehehe.

 

Nice music. Reminded me of Brewer and Shipley.

 

I'm glad you are seeing the parallels between Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu though.

[rene]

I am, yes.

 

You folks are like the guy who jumped on his horse and galloped off in all directions.

 

[Marblehead]

You folks are like the guy who jumped on his horse and galloped off in all directions.

I will not argue that.