Resting the mind in its natural state

[steve]

Not in the conventional sense. Seriously, I'm not just making this stuff up. This is from Loppon Namdrol (aka. Malcolm); brackets are mine:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12835

 

"In general, Mahamudra entails deity yoga, [tummo, karmamudra],etc. Mahamudra is the state of realizing one's state through a yidam such as Kalacakra or the other way to realize Mahamudra is through Guru Yoga. These are the two paths of Mahamudra...

 

Yes, the four yogas are practiced alongside the two stages/guru yoga by most practitioners. The four yogas technically are part of sutra mahamudra, actually, according to how it is presented by Kongtrul. They are presented as part of Mahamudra in the five fold system of Drikung and Drukpa, but this is integrated with creation stage [i.e. generation stage] and Guru Yoga.

 

According to a personal communication to me from Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso, Sutra Mahamudra was contrived by Gampopa for those who were not ready for Tantra. In sutra mahamudra there is no empowerment and no samayas, etc. Essence Mahamudra is based on a specific type of empowerment called the descent of the wisdom vajra (CF Jnanasiddhi by Indrabhuti), and the tantric mahamudra involves the practice of the two stages [generation and completion stages]. The former is more a path of Guru Yoga, the latter, of course, the two stages. Sutra Tantra and Essence Mahamudra is a system of the Karma Kagyu, It does not exist in the other Kagyu schools. In Drukpa and Drikung, the four yogas are included as part of the Sahaja Mahamudra, but this also depends on a kind of introduction. Usually a Cakrasamvara or a Vajrayogini empowerment."

 

The path of Mahamudra is equivalent to tregcho of Dzogchen. The four yogas are basically Gampopa's rendition of Dzogchen semde's four naljors.

 

Instruction from a guru is integral to the path of Varayana.

 

 

The basis for these arguments on TTB's are a result of non-practitioners and people who are generally unfamiliar with Buddhism trying to correct practitioners of buddhadharma.

 

 

It's best not to conflate Neo-Advaitan concepts with the path of Buddhism considering that being (contrasted with non-being) strays into the extremes of existence/eternalism (or inherent existence if you prefer Gelug explanations) according to Buddhism.

 

Nice post - very informative.

Thanks

[RongzomFan]

I don't know - please teach me.

 

You don't know what you practice?

 

I don't follow New Age neoAdvaita.

 

In an absolute sense, is there a path that is not a manifestation of rigpa?

 

Yes, pretty much every path out there.

 

I didn't expect you to have the courage to look at this question seriously, alwayson.

 

You mean trolling?

[steve]

You don't know what you practice?

 

You've never asked me what I practice.

[RongzomFan]

You've never asked me what I practice.

 

You are a New Age neoAdvaitin, so I assume you grab whatever technique you can from various traditions, including Buddhism.

 

Indeed you mention tonglen in the other thread.

[Apech]

This is the definition of vestigial in biology : "Occurring or persisting as a rudimentary or degenerate structure."

 

Is it possible to have a vestigial thread on an internet discussion board? Discuss. (NB. your answer can include examples such as the thread in which you are posting.)

[steve]

You are a New Age neoAdvaitin, so I assume you grab whatever technique you can from various traditions, including Buddhism.

 

Indeed you mention tonglen in the other thread.

 

Thank you for your teachings, alwayson.

I sincerely hope that some day you get at least a glimpse of your true nature.

It will change your life.

[RongzomFan]

I sincerely hope that some day you get at least a glimpse of your true nature.

It will change your life.

 

I hope you don't continue to waste your precious human life by viewing Buddhadharma as a man-made religion like your neoAdvaita.

[steve]

I hope you don't continue to waste your precious human life by viewing Buddhadharma as a man-made religion like your neoAdvaita.

 

I appreciate your concern for my well being.

[stefos]

I appreciate your concern for my well being.

I have a concern for your well being too:

 

This particular "Buddhist" forum is inundated with people who are mostly Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and

who, I would say, have no in depth knowledge of Theravada meditation or of Jhanic states nor of the use of Kasinas, etc.

 

Essentially, they've Deified Tibetan Buddhism higher than God! LOL

 

Be careful of posting here..........No one on this particular sub-forum could give me an in depth understanding of the approach of the Theras but they have minimized it, due to Tibetan Buddhist bias.

 

You've been forewarned.....ahahaha.....seriously.

Stefos

[RongzomFan]

I have a concern for your well being too:

 

This particular "Buddhist" forum is inundated with people who are mostly Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and

who, I would say, have no in depth knowledge of Theravada meditation or of Jhanic states nor of the use of Kasinas, etc.

 

Essentially, they've Deified Tibetan Buddhism higher than God! LOL

 

Be careful of posting here..........No one on this particular sub-forum could give me an in depth understanding of the approach of the Theras but they have minimized it, due to Tibetan Buddhist bias.

 

You've been forewarned.....ahahaha.....seriously.

Stefos

 

Why must people follow Theravada?

[steve]

 

 

Be careful of posting here..........No one on this particular sub-forum could give me an in depth understanding of the approach of the Theras but they have minimized it, due to Tibetan Buddhist bias.

 

You've been forewarned.....ahahaha.....seriously.

Stefos

 

Thanks Stefos

 

There are a few helpful and kind folks here that are clearly worth my time.

 

And some others too...

 

The irony is that traditions and teachings, no matter how authentic and profound, are worthless if they are not brought to life in our actions and our relationships with others.

That is what interests me the most.

The petty insults are nothing more than an opportunity for me to work on my own ego, and I've got plenty to do on that front!

 

Taking alwayson's abuse as the path!

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche would be proud!

[RongzomFan]

Taking alwayson's abuse as the path!

 

You have said much more abusive things my New Age friend.

 

But as a troll, you know that.

[steve]

You have said much more abusive things my New Age friend.

 

But as a troll, you know that.

Ouch, more name calling.

How clever...

 

What next?

Maybe a racial slur... ?

 

It's obvious that you're hurt because my comments have hit too close to home.

I'm sorry for that.

I was genuinely trying to help.

I'll stop now.

[RongzomFan]

I was genuinely trying to help.

 

Get this through your head. Your opinions means nothing to me.

[Apech]

OK only those who are resting their minds in its natural state to post from now on.

[steve]

You have said much more abusive things my New Age friend.

 

But as a troll, you know that.

Have you ever thought about our need to label people and things?

It really is just a defense mechanism.

Our delusional self puts a label on something or someone and convinces itself that it now understands that thing or person, whether it be threat, food source, ally, foe, whatever.

But the label is always inaccurate and kills any further opportunity for deeper understanding.

But there I go trying to be helpful again, sorry.

 

 

 

Get this through your head. Your opinions means nothing to me.

You're not being honest with yourself.

Some part of you cares or else why would you spend so much of your precious time commenting on them?

 

 

 

 

OK only those who are resting their minds in its natural state to post from now on.

Actually, believe it or not, I am actively practicing by participating in this conversation from a place of stillness, silence, and spaciousness. Trying to allow any emotions and thoughts to simply arise, be there, run their course, and naturally dissolve into that spaciousness.

It's an absolutely wonderful practice. I use it as much as possible in my interactions with people and situations lately and it's been very effective.

[RongzomFan]

Some part of you cares or else why would you spend so much of your precious time commenting on them?

 

Interesting cognitive dissonance.

 

Here is just 1 of many examples of you trying to elicit a response (trolling), after I have completely ignored you.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26115-further-discussion/?p=467227

 

 

So again,

 

Get this through your head. Your opinions mean nothing to me.

Edited September 3, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Chnn openly gives transmission with no prerequisites.

 

And the only criticism I have heard of that is that there is no ngondro. Noone says he should be requiring samatha.

[steve]

Interesting cognitive dissonance.

 

Here is just 1 of many examples of you trying to elicit a response (trolling), after I have completely ignored you.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26115-further-discussion/?p=467227

 

 

So again,

 

Get this through your head. Your opinions mean nothing to me.

 

I'm the troll...

 

 

No worries - if you leave me be, you won't need to ever interact with me again.

 

I sincerely wish you well.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Chnn openly gives transmission with no prerequisites.

 

And the only criticism I have heard of that is that there is no ngondro. Noone says he should be requiring samatha.

Alwaysoff,

So?

Since your guru is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, let's examine what CNN says about 'shamatha', 'shine', 'calm state'.

 

SUTRA: SHINE AND EMPTINESS If we are following the methods of the Sutra level of the teachings, the practice that is most commonly used in order to begin the process of bringing the practitioner into the state of the nature of mind is called Shine, a practice through which we seek to develop a state of meditative calm. Shine is discussed and practiced a great deal in many different traditions, and some traditions consider it to be the principal point of meditation; however, one must not forget that this understanding of Shine is essentially the point of view of Sutra, a point of view that is not shared by other levels of the teachings.

 

The practice of Sutra is generally always more related to the physical level, and the fundamental principle behind the methods of the Sutra teachings is that of controlling our three existences of body, voice, and mind in such a way that we avoid committing any negative actions, and only perform positive ones. In the Sutra methods, we govern our behavior by maintaining various vows that we have taken, and by following rules connected to them that we have vowed to abide by.

 

Beyond following rules and vows, when followers of the Sutra system practice to attain realization and develop deeper knowledge, they practice Shine. Why do they start with Shine? The fact is, we live in the relative condition, in the midst of great confusion, and as a result of all this we develop many mental problems. So the first thing we need to do is to discover and enter a calm state of mind. That is the reason for the existence of the method known as Shine.

 

When we apply Shine, we can find ourselves in a calm state. Then, as a result of having calmed our minds, we can discover the experience of emptiness. But when we learn Shine in the style of Sutra, it is often the case that much more emphasis is placed on discovering the calm state, and there is relatively little explanation or importance given to the experience of emptiness. Why is this? It is simply a characteristic of certain styles of Sutra teaching. But if you are learning a teaching like Dzogchen, then you should understand what the purpose of Shine is. The final goal of Shine is to enable us to enter into the experience of emptiness.

 

FIXATION WITH AN OBJECT

 

To arrive at this experience, we begin our practice of Shine with fixation, fixing our eyes on an object such as a statue of the Buddha, or a thangka, such as a painting of Manjushri, or a small piece of wood or stone. A style of fixation that is characteristic of Dzogchen is to use the letter A as the object of fixation. In any event, we place an object in front of us, and fix our gaze and our attention on it one-pointedly.

 

Why do we practice Shine using an object in this way? We live in a dualistic condition, and are very used to the objects of dualistic perception. If we don't have something concrete in front of us, it is harder for us to do the practice. This is why we use an object. By fixing our attention on an object one-pointedly, we can control the constant habitual chatter of our minds, and finally enter the calm state. We practice Shine in that manner, and we gradually arrive at a calm state. When we can remain in a calm state for a longer period of time, even though thoughts arise, we are realizing the practice of Shine.

 

FIXATION WITHOUT AN OBJECT

 

Then we train in the practice of Shine without using an object as the basis for the fixation of our gaze and attention. We take away the object, and at this point we gaze into space, into the dimension of emptiness. Keeping all our senses quiet, we try to relax into the same calm state that we arrived at through fixation using an object. This second phase of Shine practice is called "fixation without an object." In any case, we consider that we have succeeded in our practice of Shine when we can remain for a longer period of time without thoughts, in a state of one-pointed attention without being disturbed in any way by thoughts. In that state of one-pointed attention, we discover that the real, inherent condition of the calm state is emptiness. We are actually experiencing the emptiness of all phenomena for ourselves. This is one kind of experience.

 

It is generally quite easy to arrive at this experience of the emptiness of all phenomena. What is more difficult to understand is the discovery, when we find ourselves in the calm state, that our real nature comprises not only the calm state, but also the infinite movements of thought related to our emotions and to our energy that arise continually as the function of the state of emptiness.

 

TANTRA-INTEGRATING WITH MOVEMENT

 

In the Tantric and Dzogchen teachings, there are specific instructions and methods that work specifically with this movement that do not rely only on remaining or resting in the calm state.

When the condition of the individual is explained in the teachings in general, we speak of nepa and gyuwa. Nepa refers to the calm state; gyuwa refers to the aspect of our condition as movement. In the calm state we discover this movement of our thoughts, emotions, and energy, and then we must integrate with it. There are various methods we can receive to integrate with this movement, but such methods are not found in the Sutra teachings. They are, however, the principal method used in Tantra.

 

...

 

We can see that to learn or apply the practice of Dzogchen, or to be in the real state of Dzogchen, the principle is not only that we sit quietly somewhere practicing Shine. Shine is useful and important, but it is not of ultimate importance. Shine, or the state of emptiness, is ultimately only a kind of experience. And in the Dzogchen teachings, there are methods that are much more important than ordinary Shine. People generally do not understand these things. When they speak about Shine, they talk as if they consider it to be a supreme practice. But this is simply not true.

 

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen Teachings. Kindle Edition.

 

So, not only does Dzogchen have it's form of calm abiding "Shine", fixation on an object and without an object (which is also what Alan Wallace's Dzogchen teachings contain), but CNN indicates (like most other teachings) that just Shine is not enough.

 

So, call it like you want and discredit the rest. I prefer to see the common ground in the practices despite the differences in language.

 

 

As for your insults and rude comments, I am on this forum to learn as much as I can about topics that interest me. CNN is very nice man, open-minded and compassionate. You might try to learn something from his example.

[RongzomFan]

Alwaysoff,

 

Christian_Ice,

 

You highlighted 5 words, and ignored the rest of the paragraph.

 

"We can see that to learn or apply the practice of Dzogchen, or to be in the real state of Dzogchen, the principle is not only that we sit quietly somewhere practicing Shine. Shine is useful and important, but it is not of ultimate importance. Shine, or the state of emptiness, is ultimately only a kind of experience. And in the Dzogchen teachings, there are methods that are much more important than ordinary Shine. People generally do not understand these things. When they speak about Shine, they talk as if they consider it to be a supreme practice. But this is simply not true."

 

 

You might try to learn something from his example.

 

 

ChNN and every other master would not want open talk about Dzogchen in this manner.

 

Please learn from their example.

Edited September 4, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Christian_Ice,

 

You highlighted 5 words, and ignored the rest of the paragraph.

 

"We can see that to learn or apply the practice of Dzogchen, or to be in the real state of Dzogchen, the principle is not only that we sit quietly somewhere practicing Shine. Shine is useful and important, but it is not of ultimate importance. Shine, or the state of emptiness, is ultimately only a kind of experience. And in the Dzogchen teachings, there are methods that are much more important than ordinary Shine. People generally do not understand these things. When they speak about Shine, they talk as if they consider it to be a supreme practice. But this is simply not true."

 

 

 

 

ChNN and every other master would not want open talk about Dzogchen in this manner.

 

Please learn from their example.

 

Alwaysoff,

 

No, instead they write books about it and sell them for money.

 

Or they make movies and laugh at westerners because they think that transmission is something that they can 'receive'. Ever watch "My Reincarnation" ?

 

And, no I did not ignore the rest of the paragraph. Shine is not the ultimate practice. I can understand that. I have stated that before, I have even quoted excerpts that state that. That is not what this thread is about. I know you don't read my quotes and have no interest in understanding anything other than your own solidified views and beliefs.

 

[RongzomFan]

Alwaysoff,

 

No, instead they write books about it and sell them for money.

 

Or they make movies and laugh at westerners because they think that transmission is something that they can 'receive'. Ever watch "My Reincarnation" ?

 

Christian_Ice,

 

So which is it?

 

Should we emulate them or disregard them?

 

Make up your mind.

 

No, instead they write books about it and sell them for money.

 

The vast majority are old Tibetan works translated by western translators.

 

Maybe you are thinking about New Age.

Edited September 4, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Christian_Ice,

 

So which is it?

 

Should we emulate them or disregard them?

 

Make up your mind.

 

Alwaysoff, I thought you had a degree in proctology?

 

You'll figure it out.

[RongzomFan]

You'll figure it out.

 

I can't figure out what you mean. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

 

Alwaysoff, I thought you had a degree in proctology?

 

 

Christian_Ice, are you admitting what you say is shit?