Question about relaxed diaphragm during seated postures

[Songtsan]

When I sit, I try to relax my stomach wall, and diaphragm. This results in me having Buddha belly. Also what it does is cause my breathing to become rather shallow, and unforced. I know that since I am not moving and I am becoming very relaxed, I don't need as much oxygen, so this is fine by me. What I also notice though is that if I try to do Vipassana style breath meditation there isn't much to focus on, as there eventually exists little movement. Air circulation becomes soft and hard to sense..I can sit there for a long time apparently not breathing. Yet if I use breath as an object, what then? I have left the breath for a while because of this. I now focus on dantien/MCO..but I would still like to incorporate breath, yet I don't like to maintain a fabricated breathing system. I experience some cognitive dissonance because of this, and my focus falters. Any advice?

[Songtsan]

Read Joeblast's posts on breathing.

 

will do.

[steve]

When I sit, I try to relax my stomach wall, and diaphragm. This results in me having Buddha belly. Also what it does is cause my breathing to become rather shallow, and unforced. I know that since I am not moving and I am becoming very relaxed, I don't need as much oxygen, so this is fine by me. What I also notice though is that if I try to do Vipassana style breath meditation there isn't much to focus on, as there eventually exists little movement. Air circulation becomes soft and hard to sense..I can sit there for a long time apparently not breathing. Yet if I use breath as an object, what then? I have left the breath for a while because of this. I now focus on dantien/MCO..but I would still like to incorporate breath, yet I don't like to maintain a fabricated breathing system. I experience some cognitive dissonance because of this, and my focus falters. Any advice?

 

I don't know if you are training with a master, but it seems like you are mixing systems and methods.

 

I mean no disrespect.

 

Proper training in Daoist methods includes very specific breathing instructions depending on the system.

 

Obviously, Vipassana is a complete system in and of itself.

 

My Daoist training does not utilize Vipassana breath methods, maybe there are schools that do, I don't know. For example, in our practice of the MCO, breath is not "an object" of attention, so there is nothing there to be fabricated, it remains natural - zi ran, of itself so... sometimes there is awareness of it and sometimes not, it is not the focus (except when it is the focus). You notice it and it is as it should be and you return to the exercise at hand (eg. the orbit and the focusing and perfecting and exploring of the points and their inter-relationship in time and space and so forth, according to your custom...).

 

If you come to a system looking for something, it's important to give the method a chance to work before modifying it.

Chances are, you are not going to improve on the traditional methods with a few weeks or months of experimentation.

Unless you have a trustworthy resource guiding you in combing Vipassana with Daoist methods, I don't know what will come of it. You can fool around but these practices require a long period of proper and skillful practice (gong fu) to yield benefits.

 

Random experimentation may take you far... but is just as likely to take you off course as on...

Just sayin'

 

Namaste.

Edited July 13, 2013 by steve

[ChiDragon]

When I sit, I try to relax my stomach wall, and diaphragm. This results in me having Buddha belly. Also what it does is cause my breathing to become rather shallow, and unforced. I know that since I am not moving and I am becoming very relaxed, I don't need as much oxygen, so this is fine by me. What I also notice though is that if I try to do Vipassana style breath meditation there isn't much to focus on, as there eventually exists little movement. Air circulation becomes soft and hard to sense..I can sit there for a long time apparently not breathing. Yet if I use breath as an object, what then? I have left the breath for a while because of this. I now focus on dantien/MCO..but I would still like to incorporate breath, yet I don't like to maintain a fabricated breathing system. I experience some cognitive dissonance because of this, and my focus falters. Any advice?

 

I think you are strongly believing in and fighting against your own fallacy about breathing. So, what and whose advice would you like to accept or follow.......??? ....

Edited July 13, 2013 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

When I sit, I try to relax my stomach wall, and diaphragm. This results in me having Buddha belly. Also what it does is cause my breathing to become rather shallow, and unforced. I know that since I am not moving and I am becoming very relaxed, I don't need as much oxygen, so this is fine by me. What I also notice though is that if I try to do Vipassana style breath meditation there isn't much to focus on, as there eventually exists little movement. Air circulation becomes soft and hard to sense..I can sit there for a long time apparently not breathing. Yet if I use breath as an object, what then? I have left the breath for a while because of this. I now focus on dantien/MCO..but I would still like to incorporate breath, yet I don't like to maintain a fabricated breathing system. I experience some cognitive dissonance because of this, and my focus falters. Any advice?

Take more charge with the diaphragm. The breath can still be deep and also slender, fine. Work towards the breath externally disappearing, internalize the movements to the point that you dont have to use the stomach. Using the stomach to a significant extent, when you get to the point where you stop using the air passageways to facilitate the movement of air, you'll find that the diaphragm motion needs an anchor point, lest you bump into the competing musculotendonal tension front vs back. Root the diaphragm motion at the bottom rear and descend the motion from there for the duration of the inhale - combine that with the psoas and perineum motion and that's where you can get to the point where the motions are all entirely internalized. From there then the lengths of breath can be extended to a very significant degree.

 

Breath is not an object - it is an expression. It is not a thing to be considered, it is a process to experience. Enhancing the process, making it more efficient, has direct energetic benefits. Direct benefits to the awareness.

 

Focusing on the breath, mindfully, is creating a habit energy that ingrains itself to the subconscious, and that habit energy directly fuels awareness-potential. This shines forth into daily life as the habit energy is built, it carries an inertia that leads to one being able to express cultivated awareness in an ongoing fashion.

[Songtsan]

I don't know if you are training with a master, but it seems like you are mixing systems and methods.

 

I mean no disrespect.

 

Proper training in Daoist methods includes very specific breathing instructions depending on the system.

 

Obviously, Vipassana is a complete system in and of itself.

 

My Daoist training does not utilize Vipassana breath methods, maybe there are schools that do, I don't know. For example, in our practice of the MCO, breath is not "an object" of attention, so there is nothing there to be fabricated, it remains natural - zi ran, of itself so... sometimes there is awareness of it and sometimes not, it is not the focus (except when it is the focus). You notice it and it is as it should be and you return to the exercise at hand (eg. the orbit and the focusing and perfecting and exploring of the points and their inter-relationship in time and space and so forth, according to your custom...).

 

If you come to a system looking for something, it's important to give the method a chance to work before modifying it.

Chances are, you are not going to improve on the traditional methods with a few weeks or months of experimentation.

Unless you have a trustworthy resource guiding you in combing Vipassana with Daoist methods, I don't know what will come of it. You can fool around but these practices require a long period of proper and skillful practice (gong fu) to yield benefits.

 

Random experimentation may take you far... but is just as likely to take you off course as on...

Just sayin'

 

Namaste.

 

I am indeed mixing systems. I am making my own unique system...however, I am not trying to mix MCO with Vipassana. I am interested in doing a separate breath meditation in a different format, alongside MCO. I have no master except myself - there just aren't any qualified ones near me that I am aware of.

[Songtsan]

 

I think you are strongly believing in and fighting against your own fallacy about breathing. So, what and whose advice would you like to accept or follow.......??? ....

 

I am not following you, can you give more detail? Basically, I like not interfering with the breath is all. Yet with the relaxed stomach wall/diaphragm, it is very shallow..perhaps I am just attached to seeing more obvious movement and rhythm. Once I get settled in, the breath is so shallow that my heart beat seems to be the thing actually moving the breath - and it becomes just a real subtle in out pulse, mixed with an occasional deeper inhalation to stabilize O2 levels - all this is done by the body. I guess maybe what I am getting at is should I just interfere and keep my transversus abdominis muscles held slightly in and regulate my own breathing? That's the main gist of my question I think.

[Songtsan]

Take more charge with the diaphragm. The breath can still be deep and also slender, fine. Work towards the breath externally disappearing, internalize the movements to the point that you dont have to use the stomach. Using the stomach to a significant extent, when you get to the point where you stop using the air passageways to facilitate the movement of air, you'll find that the diaphragm motion needs an anchor point, lest you bump into the competing musculotendonal tension front vs back. Root the diaphragm motion at the bottom rear and descend the motion from there for the duration of the inhale - combine that with the psoas and perineum motion and that's where you can get to the point where the motions are all entirely internalized. From there then the lengths of breath can be extended to a very significant degree.

 

Breath is not an object - it is an expression. It is not a thing to be considered, it is a process to experience. Enhancing the process, making it more efficient, has direct energetic benefits. Direct benefits to the awareness.

 

Focusing on the breath, mindfully, is creating a habit energy that ingrains itself to the subconscious, and that habit energy directly fuels awareness-potential. This shines forth into daily life as the habit energy is built, it carries an inertia that leads to one being able to express cultivated awareness in an ongoing fashion.

 

This is the kind of thing I am looking for. Thank you. I will have to read more of your posts on this. I may get back to you with an additional question later if you don't mind.

[ChiDragon]

1. When I sit, I try to relax my stomach wall, and diaphragm. This results in me having Buddha belly. Also what it does is cause my breathing to become rather shallow, and unforced.

 

2. I know that since I am not moving and I am becoming very relaxed, I don't need as much oxygen, so this is fine by me.

 

This is my analysis to the above.

1. Your breathing becomes shallow is because you are relaxing the abdomen causing you not to breathe properly. You must expand and contract the abdomen in order to cause to diaphragm to move up and down to have effective breathing.

 

2. It is a big fallacy. Even though you are not moving, but you still need most of the oxygen for the functions of the internal organs.

 

I am not following you, can you give more detail? Basically, I like not interfering with the breath is all. Yet with the relaxed stomach wall/diaphragm, it is very shallow..perhaps I am just attached to seeing more obvious movement and rhythm. Once I get settled in, the breath is so shallow that my heart beat seems to be the thing actually moving the breath - and it becomes just a real subtle in out pulse, mixed with an occasional deeper inhalation to stabilize O2 levels - all this is done by the body. I guess maybe what I am getting at is should I just interfere and keep my transversus abdominis muscles held slightly in and regulate my own breathing? That's the main gist of my question I think.

 

The heart needs oxygen for the muscle to have strong contraction. The shallow breathing was because you are not allowing yourself to breathe more efficiently and cause suffocation. The part on breathing you should not rely on the body to control it but should be regulated by self discipline. The regulation of breathing is what Chi Kung is all about. The practice of Chi Kung is strictly be self discipline; otherwise, you are not practicimg any kind of methods at all.

Edited July 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[steve]

I am indeed mixing systems. I am making my own unique system...however, I am not trying to mix MCO with Vipassana. I am interested in doing a separate breath meditation in a different format, alongside MCO. I have no master except myself - there just aren't any qualified ones near me that I am aware of.

Good luck and enjoy the journey!

[Songtsan]

 

This is my analysis to the above.

1. Your breathing becomes shallow is because you are relaxing the abdomen causing you not to breathe properly. You must expand and contract the abdomen in order to cause to diaphragm to move up and down to have effective breathing.

 

2. It is a big fallacy. Even though you are not moving, but you still need most of the oxygen for the functions of the internal organs.

 

 

The heart needs oxygen for the muscle to have strong contraction. The shallow breathing was because you are not allowing yourself to breathe more efficiently and cause suffocation. The part on breathing you should not rely on the body to control it but should be regulated by self discipline. The regulation of breathing is what Chi Kung is all about. The practice of Chi Kung is strictly be self discipline; otherwise, you are not practice kind of methods at all.

 

I agree with some of your post, but not all of it. It has been well known in yoga and pranayama that one can achieve a nearly breathless state and that it is fine physiologically speaking. It comes with hardly moving - oxygen needs get reduced. If one is meditating properly, and not thinking, oxygen needs are even further reduced, as the brain uses a hefty supply of glucose when thinking, which would also drive oxygen consumption. I don't feel that sensation of hypercapnia, which would indicate that CO2 was building up, and no sensation of suffocation either. I do intend to regulate the muscles now, so the point is moot anyways. Right now I am using a slight contraction of the transversus abdominis, and that helps...I will work on pelvic floor muscles and psoas too, as well as diaphragm. The diaphragm attaches to the psoas, and I know that I have a tight psoas on the left side, so some work is neccessary.

 

Thanks for all your posts everyone

[ChiDragon]

I agree with some of your post, but not all of it. It has been well known in yoga and pranayama that one can achieve a nearly breathless state and that it is fine physiologically speaking. It comes with hardly moving - oxygen needs get reduced.

 

I cannot find a reference souce that is coincide with the notion of "pranayama that one can achieve a nearly breathless state."

[Songtsan]

Well, see here for starters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbhaka

 

It's basically a state of almost suspended animation - little going on, so O2 needs are very low...its actually very easy to do. If you are interested I will explain it in more detail. You can do it savasana or seated positions.

 

Its not the only pranayama I do by the way, just one thing I do. It is a real bonus to concentration. Extra O2 means extra energy, and if the mind is not settled properly, all that extra energy will just go to waste. My mind is not settled properly at this time, and I am not seeking it to be. I want to think/understand at this point in my life. I am doing work.

[MooNiNite]

something with words

Edited August 5, 2013 by MooNiNite

[Songtsan]

breathless state is in deep meditation. it occurs often. dont try to achieve it tho. it comes naturally. its possible to be in deep meditation without breathless too.

 

I don't look for it - it comes naturally all the time..it's how I unwind too. I am so active all the time that it is good to shut my nervous system down, give it a chance to cool off. The less you do, the less energy flowing through the system, gives the neurons a chance to regenerate.

 

It's almost like a waking sleep state, very blissful and relaxed.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[松永道]

I am some experience with both.

 

I understand the distinction between most Daoist methods and Vippassanna through a pair of Chinese terms: Shangde 上德 and Xiade 下德

 

Shang 上 means upper. Xia 下 means lower. And De 德 means virtue - as in Dao DE Jing 道德经.

 

Shangde, upper virtue, is the way of natural cultivation. Wuwei. It just happens. Without desire.

Xiade, lower virtue, is the way of purposed cultivation. It's forced. Fueled by desire.

Incidentally, the first chapter of the DDJ is about the same pair of ideas

故常无欲以观其妙 make desirelessness a habit, and see/connect to wonder

常有欲以观其徼 make desire a habit, and see/connect to results

 

Obviously desiresless upper virtue holds special esteem.

 

The problem is, Shangde is elusive. It takes an emptiness of mind and fullness of vitality that's rare to say the least. Vippassanna is an upper virtue method. It's the main practice for Theravada Buddhists - which is why Theravada was later named the small vehicle. It's not for everyone. It's hard. Beyond hard. Some monks achieved enlightenment. But most didn't have the fuel to break orbit.

 

Daoists, yogis and later Buddhists all recognize this problem. So they use auxiliary methods. And for the record these methods existed long before the Buddha. These practices don't aim at enlightenment. Not directly. Hence the name lower virtue. But they can strengthen the bodymind. And that's a good thing too.

 

Though upper and lower can't be practiced at the same time, a person can practice both. Lower virtue methods can build a foundation for upper virtue. Even Theravada Buddhists practice anapana concentration before starting vipassana. And if we're going to be totally honest, all practices belong to lower virtue. Even vipassana. But Vippassana's goal is to trigger the upper virtue experience.

 

You can't force upper virtue. Not even a little. So it follows that Vippassana breathing is totally natural. If it's shallow, it's shallow. If it stops, it stops. It takes bravery be natural. Genuinely natural. After all, the desire to control nature runs deep. It's the story of our culture. And when we feel in control, nature seems beautiful or ignorable. When we're not, it's wondrous and terrifying. If you follow nature, it will take you through your fears. And should you weather one storm worse await.

 

But it's worth it.

 

Let the breath out. Let it stop. Face your fear of death and letting go.

I won't give away what I found beyond - I'd like to, but it's rude. Expectations are another obstacle to upper virtue. They're worse than fear in my opinion. And far more insidious.

 

Or stick to xiade and experiment it out.

 

Both ways are good.

Edited July 14, 2013 by 松永道

[joeblast]

You must expand and contract the abdomen in order to cause to diaphragm to move up and down to have effective breathing.

*sighs* the diaphragm is bands of tendon. the front of the abdomen does not need to expand or contract in order for it to move. this statement conflates cause and effect - the abdomen moves out normally because of the movement of the diaphragm. because the movement is not internalized. because the diaphragm-psoas-perineum is not properly timed.

[ChiDragon]

I am not following you, can you give more detail? Basically, I like not interfering with the breath is all. Yet with the relaxed stomach wall/diaphragm, it is very shallow..perhaps I am just attached to seeing more obvious movement and rhythm. Once I get settled in, the breath is so shallow that my heart beat seems to be the thing actually moving the breath - and it becomes just a real subtle in out pulse, mixed with an occasional deeper inhalation to stabilize O2 levels - all this is done by the body. I guess maybe what I am getting at is should I just interfere and keep my transversus abdominis muscles held slightly in and regulate my own breathing? That's the main gist of my question I think.

 

Based on your believes and practices, apparently, things do not work out for you because of your line of questioning. I think your line of questioning is completely legitimate due to some open loopholes. However, what bothers me was why all the basic fundamental principles you have learned or followed others' advices still did not fall into place for you.....!!! Does this mean anything to you at all.....???

Edited July 14, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Songtsan]

Both ways are good.

 

This is great information. My gratitude.

[Songtsan]

*sighs* the diaphragm is bands of tendon. the front of the abdomen does not need to expand or contract in order for it to move. this statement conflates cause and effect - the abdomen moves out normally because of the movement of the diaphragm. because the movement is not internalized. because the diaphragm-psoas-perineum is not properly timed.

 

Indeed. The diaphragm is shaped much like an inverted umbrella. If the abdomen is allowed to all the way 'pooch' out, and all those other muscles, including the psoas to completely relax downwards, it would seem that it would stretch that tendon and thus pull the umbrella downwards, preventing most movement. I think this is exactly what I experience. I figured out yesterday that I could leave the rectus abdominis/transversus abdominis, etc totally relaxed, and just create a slight upward shift on the tendon that attaches to the diaphragm and it would allow that movement I sought. I haven't even had time to re-read the post you made, or any of your other posts regarding this stuff. I have been so busy in so many directions.

[Songtsan]

 

Based on your believes and practices, apparently, things do not work out for you because of your line of questioning. I think your line of questioning is completely legitimate due to some open loopholes. However, what bothers me was why all the basic fundamental principles you have learned or followed others' advices still did not fall into place for you.....!!! Does this mean anything to you at all.....???

 

I think that you are generalizing too much. Let's stick with the basic questions in this thread. Stereotyping someone indicates a lack of understanding. You may be assuming that I have the same goals as you do, and that my intent is the same as yours, and so you view me through the lense of your own expectations for yourself. I am and avid researcher and experimenter. I question everything. No traditionalist am I. This has always been my way. Since I could remember, I have always asked 'What if this?' 'What if that?' questions. I am not trying to reinvent any wheels, just improve them, and more to the point, understand them beyond just accepting that they are. I am confident in my style of approach, as it has led me far. You also assume that things do not work out for me...this is patently untrue. I have had many beautiful perception attainments which I do not share with people here, but I see no reason to brag, and most people wouldn't even believe me. It would be best for you to approach me without any preconceived notions, nor any absolutist assumptions. I am simply trying to save you time, as I find you often questioning my ways. It is really unnecessary I assure you. You are spending energy that is not needed to be spent, and I am spending energy trying to explain to you that is also unnecessary to be spending. I would prefer to use this energy on more constructive activities than always trying to fix your errant assumptions. Nothing personal, I simply would like the best for both of us. Try to give constructive advice related only to the questions I post, if you would like to assist me in me efforts. Attacking my underlying motivations serves me no help whatsoever. You don't need to understand me. Just trust me. I can take care of myself. I am a big boy. I don't need an online guru. Let me just state for the record that I am NOT seeking more perception attainments, enlightenment, or energy cultivation skills at this time. I seek something else which would take too long for me to explain.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Songtsan

[ChiDragon]

So, the final conclusion is....
If I can't agree with you, then, don't even bother to waste your time and mine to disagree with you. Fine, my friend........

[Songtsan]

So, the final conclusion is....

If I can't agree with you, then, don't even bother to waste your time and mine to disagree with you. Fine, my friend........

 

Not at all - just contribute something I can use to grow. Attacking me in general ways vs. specific ways doesn't help me. If you have something specific - something you can point out, that would help me greatly. Instead you seem to constantly attack the ground that I walk on. That is way to deep and rooted for you to remove or change. Its like trying to uproot a tree. Work on a branch or two - you will be far more successful - that's what I mean. I will give you an example if you like.

[Songtsan]

 

I think you are strongly believing in and fighting against your own fallacy about breathing. So, what and whose advice would you like to accept or follow.......??? ....

 

To you its fallacy - to me its not. I accept advice I believe in...I accepted Joe blasts advice, and that one guy who's name is in chinese and I dont know what it means, and some of the others here. Please dont take it personally if I dont 100% agree with you. I cannot tell myself to believe something I dont.

 

 

This is my analysis to the above.

1. Your breathing becomes shallow is because you are relaxing the abdomen causing you not to breathe properly. You must expand and contract the abdomen in order to cause to diaphragm to move up and down to have effective breathing.

 

2. It is a big fallacy. Even though you are not moving, but you still need most of the oxygen for the functions of the internal organs.

 

 

The heart needs oxygen for the muscle to have strong contraction. The shallow breathing was because you are not allowing yourself to breathe more efficiently and cause suffocation. The part on breathing you should not rely on the body to control it but should be regulated by self discipline. The regulation of breathing is what Chi Kung is all about. The practice of Chi Kung is strictly be self discipline; otherwise, you are not practicimg any kind of methods at all.

 

Here I disagreed on the O2 requirements part - we have been having this disagreement since I posted that thread on pranayama. Dont get mad if I dont agree with you. I am a scientist - I have done my own studies on this and it is clear to me that I am right you are wrong...I always provide evidence, others also provide evidence to your contrary and yet you still insist on keeping to your own beliefs - not a problem. Just dont get upset when I still refuse to agree with you. Its alright you know! Its not a big deal.

 

I cannot find a reference souce that is coincide with the notion of "pranayama that one can achieve a nearly breathless state."

 

I gave you one immediately as I saw your post - it took me all of a minute to find (in wikipedia at that!). Others also agreed with me. I think you are just being resistant to changing your own views. I dont fault you for this too much, as I understand what it is to be stubborn.

 

 

Based on your believes and practices, apparently, things do not work out for you because of your line of questioning. I think your line of questioning is completely legitimate due to some open loopholes. However, what bothers me was why all the basic fundamental principles you have learned or followed others' advices still did not fall into place for you.....!!! Does this mean anything to you at all.....???

 

- here you questioned whether or not others advice helped me or not...it is pretty obvious that it did as I decided to change from completely relaxed abdomen to an adjusted position of various muscles, which I am still working out, after only 1-2 days of making this post! You seem to expect instant change in my part as if I am some kind of person who instantly trusts others advice without examining it first - definitely not the case.

 

So, the final conclusion is....

If I can't agree with you, then, don't even bother to waste your time and mine to disagree with you. Fine, my friend........

 

I am just telling you not to get upset basically - to save you wear and tear on your psyche! You know that I dislike fruitless arguments. I don't know that we have either of us accomplished anything with all this back and forth. I think you just have a lot of angst that I am confident in my own beliefs and wont listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but I think some of what you are saying is flawed. I know what you mean, but don't agree. Its ok! Nothing is wrong with disagreeing. I can be stubborn, you can be the same. Let's not expend too much energy in fruitless attempts to change each other if its obviously not working out - that is all that I am saying, bottom line. Its healthier for us both - less stressful. You know this deep down, I know you do.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Songtsan

[joeblast]

Indeed. The diaphragm is shaped much like an inverted umbrella. If the abdomen is allowed to all the way 'pooch' out, and all those other muscles, including the psoas to completely relax downwards, it would seem that it would stretch that tendon and thus pull the umbrella downwards, preventing most movement. I think this is exactly what I experience. I figured out yesterday that I could leave the rectus abdominis/transversus abdominis, etc totally relaxed, and just create a slight upward shift on the tendon that attaches to the diaphragm and it would allow that movement I sought. I haven't even had time to re-read the post you made, or any of your other posts regarding this stuff. I have been so busy in so many directions.

start from the lower back and keep going

 

dont bother getting into technicalities with CD, waste of time. no offense man.