Life. A Chinese fable.

[chenping]

Yes diversity exists right down to individuals and even stages of their lives,

Therefore the gross generalizations you put forth regarding people and cultures

are at their source baseless. The lumpings are artificial constructs -unnatural.

What does exist are many individuals , I could lump folks into nationalities

I could lump them into skin colors I could lump them into height ETC ETC

But the reality of the situation is THAT YOU HAVE only THE TRAITS YOU POSSESS

 

So, you think my lumping trees into a forest is baseless. How about lumping leaves into a foliage or raindrops into a tropical storm? Why do you have this need to stand out as a single weed and be counted? Do you think Ortho Pharmaceuticals would designed Weed B Gon around you specifically or a bunch of crabgrass?

 

The Buddha said that the individual is an illusion. You think that is baseless?

 

That Lao tzu was smart is no reflection on what your capabilities are any more than the

cruelty of Pol pot or Adolph Hitler.

Tall short small fast stupid smart genial crafty slow , the generalizations are always wrong

for the folks they dont fit.

 

You keep thinking in terms of individual personalities. Lao Tzu is the personification, a symbol of Chinese thought which evolved as a worldview of the Chinese mind, my mind. No?

 

Chinamen get along with everybody everywhere ?? bushtit!

 

They do regardless of how difficult you make it for them. Can you point out one Chinese political activist making a nuisance of himself demanding equal rights in a foreign culture?

 

PS There are plenty of folks making the same kind of generalizations, and hate the Chinese, as a result of it... but I doubt anybody has a problem with Icelanders.

 

They may be generalizations to you because you believe you are somebody and hate being lumped together with the herd. You won't face the fact that you are one of a kind.

[Stosh]

_{If an individual is an illusion , how much more is an abstract and arbitrary grouping !}

_{I explained that in the same paragraph you quoted. . but maybe there can be found agreement around the wise one.}

_{You are responding to me , and I to you , if there is no distinction that we have at all , then our conversation is with ourself.}

_{-which it may be anyway yet we are connected in this interaction , so we are not entirely distinct !}

_{When a seedling emerges from the earth , or declines back into it , when is it ? that it can be called a tree} ?(no more and no less)

 

Its roots are integral with the soil, and its leaves merge into the air, but its trunk is clear enough to see.

So such is as abstracts are there differences at core but the margins are undefined .

 

Lao tzu can be held up a symbol by people who dont think enough of themselves to stand on their own merit

and so need to point to someone else ( real or not) to take credit.

If you were to get anything from the words -or construct- that is Lao or Buddha , It should be ,that a wise person once tried to reduce the strife in the world by explaining that nationalites and races were false distinctions , and therefore no reason to kill each each other over , that men are brothers , NOT that we dont exist as individuals in any way whatsoever.

Much of what we think about ourselves is not actually what we are, NOT that we are a figment of the imagination or a hallucination in the 'mind' of space time.

 

The Chinese people have enough difficulty demanding rights in their home country , many are probably thankful that other goverments grant them so much freedom.

( Which , when such rights finally come to some many abused people in that country it is going to shatter like a ming vase.)

The people themselves know it, and use that as an excuse not to try to overthrow the govt. They mouth the words that it is an eastern type solution to govt , to hide their very real concerns.

 

"They may be generalizations to you because you believe you are somebody and hate being lumped together with the herd. You won't face the fact that you are one of a kind"

 

Are you getting things a little confused here your two sentences seem defy one another, are you saying I am unique in my troublesome ways ?, or are you saying I am just an insignificant part of a 'great grand society which does have significance?

 

If its the first choice , fine , I accept the verdict.

If its the second choice , Id say the source of any significance is to individuals themselves. As in "We the people.."

Edited March 26, 2013 by Stosh

[chenping]

_{If an individual is an illusion , how much more is an abstract and arbitrary grouping !}

_{I explained that in the same paragraph you quoted. . but maybe there can be found agreement around the wise one.}

_{You are responding to me , and I to you , if there is no distinction that we have at all , then our conversation is with ourself.}

_{-which it may be anyway yet we are connected in this interaction , so we are not entirely distinct !}

_{When a seedling emerges from the earth , or declines back into it , when is it ? that it can be called a tree} ?(no more and no less)

 

Its roots are integral with the soil, and its leaves merge into the air, but its trunk is clear enough to see.

So such is as abstracts are there differences at core but the margins are undefined .

 

There is no point arguing if you can't see what I see even though I can see what you see. I know what you are talking about but unable to get you to understand what I am saying. You are like a chimp looking at a mirror and convinced that there is another chimp looking at you. Even if I were to smash that mirror, you would still be picking through the broken glass looking for that other chimp.

 

Lao tzu can be held up a symbol by people who dont think enough of themselves to stand on their own merit

and so need to point to someone else ( real or not) to take credit.

If you were to get anything from the words -or construct- that is Lao or Buddha , It should be ,that a wise person once tried to reduce the strife in the world by explaining that nationalites and races were false distinctions , and therefore no reason to kill each each other over , that men are brothers , NOT that we dont exist as individuals in any way whatsoever.

Much of what we think about ourselves is not actually what we are, NOT that we are a figment of the imagination or a hallucination in the 'mind' of space time.

 

So, you think you are you and won't point to take credit for anything? How about this English language you are using? Is there any thought you are thinking that wasn't thought of by anyone before, any phrases you are using to articulate your thoughts that wasn't phrased by someone else before? Do you know that Google can predict your next ten keystrokes because they have been done before by Stoshes like you?

 

The Chinese people have enough difficulty demanding rights in their home country , many are probably thankful that other goverments grant them so much freedom.

 

Other governments don't grant anything to the Chinese living among the local natives in third-world countries. Chinese are persecuted because they are so much better at driving the economy and amassing wealth for themselves. In first-world countries, the Chinese don't need to be thankful for anything including freedom. You'd better watch it and pull up your socks to support your society if you want to keep up with the Chinese living in your neck of the woods.

 

( Which , when such rights finally come to some many abused people in that country it is going to shatter like a ming vase.)

The people themselves know it, and use that as an excuse not to try to overthrow the govt. They mouth the words that it is an eastern type solution to govt , to hide their very real concerns.

 

So you are also predicting a China collapse?

 

"They may be generalizations to you because you believe you are somebody and hate being lumped together with the herd. You won't face the fact that you are one of a kind"

 

Are you getting things a little confused here your two sentences seem defy one another, are you saying I am unique in my troublesome ways ?, or are you saying I am just an insignificant part of a 'great grand society which does have significance?

 

If its the first choice , fine , I accept the verdict.

If its the second choice , Id say the source of any significance is to individuals themselves. As in "We the people.."

 

I am not confused. I said you are one of a kind, as in one of a specie, one of a swarm, one of a basket of apples.

Edited March 27, 2013 by chenping

[chenping]

In computer programming there is a saying, Garbage in; Garbage out. That is to say, you are going to be the person you are taught to be. Yes, we all are born with a blank slate as a brain.

 

So, you believe that a baby is born with a blank slate like a new unformatted Dell computer. If a baby is kept in a cage full of monkeys and fed along with its companions till adulthood without ever coming into contact with a human, it would become a monkey? What if it were raised along with ants? I'm not trying to be funny. Just thinking out loud, like K.

 

Nope. I am as serious as a heart attack. What are some of the things a China man wants? I am absolutely sure that you will find the equivalent wants in the heart of American man as well. (Disregard all the cultural learning of things that they are told they are supposed to want. Only the basic human needs.)

 

At the biological level, everyone, including the housefly, wants the same things: food clothing and shelter. But I am talking about people at the cultural level where the American is as different from the Chinaman as English is different from Chinese. The more you insist that everyone thinks like you, the more resentment you generate in others. Why do you think teenage kids put a "KEEP OUT!" sign on their bedroom doors and hate being around their parents?

 

Abilities open doors too. I disagree regarding a caste-like system in America. It is really the least caste-like system on the planet. Abilities count more than anything else.

 

Abilities open doors only when talent can be monetized and makes tons of cash. Anyway, who cares? People have a right to exclusivity.

[Stosh]

There is no point arguing if you can't see what I see even though I can see what you see. I know what you are talking about but unable to get you to understand what I am saying. You are like a chimp looking at a mirror and convinced that there is another chimp looking at you. Even if I were to smash that mirror, you would still be picking through the broken glass looking for that other chimp.

There is no information there, other than you are tossing yet another insult out.

 

So, you think you are you and won't point to take credit for anything? How about this English language you are using? Is there any thought you are thinking that wasn't thought of by anyone before, any phrases you are using to articulate your thoughts that wasn't phrased by someone else before? Do you know that Google can predict your next ten keystrokes because they have been done before by Stoshes like you?

 

There are no other Stoshes like me.

I didnt create english !

English words and phrases are continually reused , thats the reason they CAN be used.

 

You'd better watch it and pull up your socks to support your society if you want to keep up with the Chinese living in your neck of the woods.

 

I prefer to accept and welcome anybody to the neighborhood who contributes their share. Im not afraid of competing with anybody -Chinese or not., are you telling me I should fear you >? (If you are even Chinese) You gotta be joking.

 

So you are also predicting a China collapse?

 

Yes, if the people are granted the power and rights they deserve. China is gaining its economic size and influence by keeping the people underpaid , which is untenable if the people want to continue to prosper over time . They need to be given the opportunity to compete and fail and derive the benfits that come along with merit based economics. Having a middle class with purchasing power is highly efficient. China now exports underpriced goods in part because they keep wages low and expropriate technological innovation. The suppliers are kept on a tilted playing field by that and by the non freefloating currency policy of the Govt. By keeping the people weak , struggling to make ends meet , the people dont have the luxury of pushing back against the Govt.

And if they keep the people censored then it is yet more difficult to gather up any steam.

If that were to change ,big chunks would start dropping off the territory that is China now.

 

I am not confused. I said you are one of a kind, as in one of a specie, one of a swarm, one of a basket of apples.

 

Such groupings are artificial constructs , as I already related ,, we have gone in a circle.

 

[chenping]

There is no information there, other than you are tossing yet another insult out.

 

It wasn't meant as an insult. When I said that you are like a chimp, I wasn't stating that your are chimp-like. The chimp situation was just an illustrative aid to get my point across. I like talking to guys like you to unwind every now and then. I used to unwind, as a kid, watching the insects crawling about in my ant farm.

 

There are no other Stoshes like me.

I didnt create english !

English words and phrases are continually reused , thats the reason they CAN be used.

 

Why are you using colored fonts for this conversation? Just break up the entire quote into separate paragraphs by hitting "enter" twice in quick succession at the points you want a break. Even a chimp can be taught to do this. Try it.

 

I prefer to accept and welcome anybody to the neighborhood who contributes their share. Im not afraid of competing with anybody -Chinese or not., are you telling me I should fear you >? (If you are even Chinese) You gotta be joking.

 

Even I fear the Chinese. To fear does not mean tremble with fright. To fear, as Sun Tzu meant it, is never to kill someone you don't know, as a mentor in gangland would teach you. You could chew off more than you can handle. It's like walking into a boxing ring to find out that you are outmatched only when you hear your head hitting the floor. This is the kind of stuff Chinese kids are taught at the dinner table. I can almost see Xi Jiping getting his head smacked by his dad as he reaches across the table for the food with his chopsticks. And you think with your western upbringing you can grasp the Tao Te Ching as easily as him?

 

Yes, if the people are granted the power and rights they deserve.

 

They would be like Americans.

 

China is gaining its economic size and influence by keeping the people underpaid , which is untenable if the people want to continue to prosper over time . They need to be given the opportunity to compete and fail and derive the benfits that come along with merit based economics. Having a middle class with purchasing power is highly efficient. China now exports underpriced goods in part because they keep wages low and expropriate technological innovation. The suppliers are kept on a tilted playing field by that and by the non freefloating currency policy of the Govt. By keeping the people weak , struggling to make ends meet , the people dont have the luxury of pushing back against the Govt.

And if they keep the people censored then it is yet more difficult to gather up any steam.

If that were to change ,big chunks would start dropping off the territory that is China now.

 

This is a little too heavy for me, Stosh. Ruling a big country is like cooking a small fish, according to the English version of the Tao Te Ching. The Government of China is following the Chinese version.

[Stosh]

I never came across the factoid about the enter twice , but no ,you cant teach a chimp to do that- because they cant read.

Even so, I find the colored fonts makes it easier for the eye to follow the sequence , thats my subjective opinion.

 

"Granted the power and rights they deserve" , the Chinese "would be like americans" ?.

 

Yes- in that regard- in other regards, they are already similar in many ways -as I see it.

 

And you think with your western upbringing you can grasp the Tao Te Ching as easily as him?

If I said I did- then I would be making assumptions about stuff I dont know just as he was being instructed not to.

 

Are you blind to the teaching you just put before ME ?

I find that quite ironic.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

stosh... dude... just no... if gorillas can learn sign, why cant chimps learn written English?

[Stosh]

I read a book recently which dicusses the similarities between chimpanzees and men , its the authors conclusion that humans really should be in the same grouping as chimps and bonobos -speaking gentically

A human males genome is more similar to that of a male chimpanzee than it is to a human female!

So maybe I am selling short on chimpanzee capabilities.

Considering how irrational some folks are,, it might be a trade-off of skill sets they should consider.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Stosh

[chenping]

I wonder why the similarities need discussion when there are no differences between men and chimpanzees at all! It would be discussing the similarities between two apples. Do you realize how irrational that is?

Edited April 5, 2013 by chenping

[Stosh]

I wonder why the similarities need discussion when there are no differences between men and chimpanzees at all! It would be discussing the similarities between two apples. Do you realize how irrational that is?

Are you saying you literally are a chimpanzee? Thats very humble , I think Mr. Diamond would agree - though I personally do not, and note some clear differences between the two groups. ( though I confess , yes, to some bias at the heart of it , since bias is inherent in making distinctions of group, but anyhow ,since making distinctions between chimpanzees and apples is a functional bias- Ill keep it , whereas making distinctions about races and cultures is divisive - so Ill reject that one.)

Edited April 5, 2013 by Stosh

[chenping]

I am saying that I am literally - in every respect - an animal. To my mind, there is nothing humble about regarding myself as such because it is the truth. To regard yourself as better than the chimpanzee is to be arrogant especially for a Taoist whose calling is to go back to nature and reject civilization.

 

Perhaps, making distinctions for the purpose of favoring one race or culture without just cause at the expense of the other is divisive. And so we are divided as it is our nature. Rejecting divisiveness is not wu wei but the act of will in forcing water to flow upwards against its nature.

[Stosh]

It may be just that ,,

, the question sits -on what is the true nature of men ,

what just cause means ,

and whether there are ,objectively better or worse states to be in.

 

Going by Chi Dragons definition of what wei wu wei is ,, 'rejecting divisiveness'- may or may not- fit under that heading.

My own reading is a bit different and I feel objectivity, and taking a harmonious stance is strongly advocated ( but those attitudes may not be the "natural" one for humans to have - certainly it is normative to subdivide into groups of arbitrary similarities )

I wonder if there was an inarguable term in classical Chinese for the attitude we call 'objectivity'.

It is certainly difficult to outline precisely what that term means, or whether it exists.

As for rejecting civilization , Im not sure that it is what is meant by the works. The United States might , as it already is, might fit some folks ideas of anarchy , or harmony , or 'natural' . I dont think a man must act bestial to be true to his nature - for it is as inherent within men -to create society , to look to the divine etc as it is to learn language or stand upright.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

; An Awareness; A String; An Electron; An Atom; A Molecule; An Element; A Single Cell; An Organism; A Host; An Organ; *A Body*; A Vehicle; A Home; A Clan; A Territory; A Geological Mass; A World; A Solar System; A Galaxy; A Universe; A Consciousness;

These are all Being.

Each one a person. Each one an individual amongst like individuals. Each one Conscious and Aware. Each one with the Free Will to make choices within the limitations of their *construct*.

Each one with the capability of mimicry of similar constructs, within range of their own construct's capabilities.

Humans are the sum total of all things and in the center of creation; can mimic and represent all constructs.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

the question is:

What are the *13 things* that combine with these beings to (re)present the "next level"?

[chenping]

the question is:

 

What are the *13 things* that combine with these beings to (re)present the "next level"?

 

How's your anarchy organization coming along? The reason why the US government cannot get it right is because no administration gets more than eight years to fix it. So, no one has long term interest for the nation and every politician is out for himself.

 

It's the same with you and me. We are around for only one lifetime. Ultimately, everybody has no long term interests for mankind and is only out for himself.

Edited April 7, 2013 by chenping

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

i'd "dislike" your comment, but the boards dont let me.



You've got it all wrong, and how.

[chenping]

i'd "dislike" your comment, but the boards dont let me.

 

 

Please dislike my comment without restraint through private messaging. I believe in free expression.

 

You've got it all wrong, and how.

 

Show me where I am wrong. The only authentic values are those real ones you can live by. Such values are honestly brutal in accordance with the traditional Tao Te Ching of China. Pooh Bear Taoism is based on idealist fantasy values that ignore the lore of nature - eat or be eaten, kill or be killed.

 

This doesn't mean that I have to conform and live like a beast among beasts. I practise wu wei and leave the beasts be. And the Tao Te Ching is my guide to live out my one lifetime safely among beasts.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Please dislike my comment without restraint through private messaging. I believe in free expression.

 

 

Show me where I am wrong. The only authentic values are those real ones you can live by. Such values are honestly brutal in accordance with the traditional Tao Te Ching of China. Pooh Bear Taoism is based on idealist fantasy values that ignore the lore of nature - eat or be eaten, kill or be killed.

 

This doesn't mean that I have to conform and live like a beast among beasts. I practise wu wei and leave the beasts be. And the Tao Te Ching is my guide to live out my one lifetime safely among beasts.

 

 

If i am to keep it to PMs, i hope you will too.

[chenping]

If i am to keep it to PMs, i hope you will too.

 

Ok, but only if we need to express our views freely beyond the tolerance level of the mods. Otherwise, let's strut our stuff here.

 

I maintain that, for everyone without exception, there is only one lifetime and, as such, all interests are fundamentally selfish.

If I speak the truth, then I speak for everyone regardless of denials and dislikes. Either prove that I lie or shove it.

 

This thread began with a Chinese fable about a white horse jumping the gap between the cliffs overhead and then it's gone.

Where has it gone? The answer is that it has not gone anywhere. It's existence ended the instant it disappeared just as suddenly as it's existence began the moment it appeared. No before, no after.

 

It's the same with life which is that gap between the cliffs. Each of us comes into existence suddenly at birth, like that horse, and will vanish without trace at death. The horse that cleared the cliff after disappearing lives on in your mind that wants to know where it has gone and where it came from. Yes, where did man come from? NOWHERE! No carbon-dating, no big-bang, nothing! Only one thing is certain. We saw that horse and we do exist.

 

So, why are we in the boat in the valley? Where are we going? Why is everyone raising children to jump off the cliff? Why am I stuck in this shit-hole of a life? Your mind wants to know but the universe is silent (Camus?).

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

OH MY GAWWWD IT IS SO COOL! I CAN CONTROL REALITY! AMAZING! YOU GOTTA TRY THIS!


I can make reality...

disappear completely! totally invisible. nothing but blackness.


i bet you're eager to figure out how YOU taught me how to do that just now, arent you? wanna guess?






Okay, my apologies. I suppose that was serious. In my mind, when someone makes a joke, i gotta be funnier and make a better joke.

But you were serious, werentcha?

So my question is, why dont you believe in existence beyond perception, reality beyond physics?
In an equation as massive and complex as ours, it is not only logical to assume all things are true except where evidently proven false, but that it is completely illogical to assert anything as "ultimate".

all that energy/mass conversion really is proof that neither does anything last forever, nor forever cease to exist.

A breath is a moment in time where you have the life inhaled, where yet another moment gone that death has exhaled, only to relax and hold pose in the void of nothingness before birthing another breath; rebirth, renewal.

While, yes, all things that have been born will one day die; while yes, the earth and the heavens were created from origins beyond most our comprehensions and will eventually vanish in manners we can only speculate; while yes, this individual person, me, will die one day, I will understand then as i do now that eternalness is true and fear is false.

If i so desire to repeat an infinite journey through experience, it will so inevitably be done again, regardless of the "me" that says "I am". It has happened before, it is happening now, and it will happen again. Eternal awareness permeates temporal physics.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Wu Ming Jen]

The boat is your body, the river is life ( flowing), the cliffs are the hights you want to attain, the horse is an illusion of what one thinks is above the cliffs, The horse simply goes out of view. Seeing the horse or not is a source of argument. did it exist or not. who do you need to convince of that? The great image is imageless, high and low is a relative perception being in the valley. Life moves on but we are not going anywhere we are already here, we never left