Dzogchen Teachings

[themiddleway]

My main concern is people claiming to be teachers who are not authorised to do so and disinformation spread about Dzogchen. I am not a teacher.

 

The discussing of cosmogony and how it relates to thogel is something best left off the Internet. It all begins with guru yoga; there really is not any ‘higher practice’. An authentic guru has already achieved total realization; just being in their presence can be liberating and corrective.

 

I sorry to harp on about Guru this Guru that but its been mistakenly targeted as cultural baggage. The importance of the Guru cannot be emphasised enough, otherwise there is real danger of the teachings becoming diluted.

 

I am aware that Rinpoche is teaching from his own terma, we are very fortunate. I argued that his sharing of Dzogchen was a break from tradition, to counter the claims that the Tibetans are holding on to the teachings for them selves.

 

To paraphrase Rinpoche: if someone has knowledge of Dzogchen, it is far more beneficial for that individual to practice and teach within the organisation that he is overseeing. "There I am by the grace..' etc

 

As for card games and day trading, who cares.

[ralis]

My main concern is people claiming to be teachers who are not authorised to do so and disinformation spread about Dzogchen. I am not a teacher.

 

 

As for card games and day trading, who cares.

 

 

You last line is nothing more than an escapist attitude. That is what troubles me about Buddhists. As to the first, lineages and gurus are a thing of the past in which I am not interested in such authoritarianism.

Edited March 13, 2013 by ralis

[ralis]

"There I am by the grace..' etc

 

 

What is that supposed to mean?

[RongzomFan]

You last line is nothing more than an escapist attitude. That is what troubles me about Buddhists.

 

 

Note the title of this forum......"Buddhist Discussion". Are you one?

 

 

As to the first, lineages and gurus are a thing of the past in which I am not interested in such authoritarianism.

 

Is your personal view higher than tertons and divine terma?

 

Contemplating written text is no different than sutrayana. Might as well go into Zen.

[ralis]

Note the title of this forum......"Buddhist Discussion". Are you one?

 

 

 

Is your personal view higher than tertons and divine terma?

 

Contemplating written text is no different than sutrayana. Might as well go into Zen.

 

 

'Buddhist' is just another conceptual construct. The problem with you is making this just another exclusive club full of rules and authoritarianism. If I remember correctly you have been suspended from here on a number of occasions.

Edited March 13, 2013 by ralis

[RongzomFan]

'Buddhist' is just another concept. The problem with you is making this just another exclusive club full of rules and authoritarianism.

 

Is your personal view higher than that of divine terma which is directly from Buddhas?

 

If I remember correctly you have been suspended from here on a number of occasions.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26017-taobums-moderators-forcing-practitioners-to-break-samaya/

[ralis]

Is your personal view higher than tertons and divine terma?

 

Just hide behind authoritarianism which is just religious dogma.

[ralis]

Is your personal view higher than that of divine terma which is directly from Buddhas?

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26017-taobums-moderators-forcing-practitioners-to-break-samaya/

 

If you want to live a rigid monastic life then that is your right. There is and has been for centuries too much religious rigidity in this world. To imply that Buddhism is different, more divine and higher than all other belief systems is missing the point.

[RongzomFan]

Just hide behind authoritarianism which is just religious dogma.

 

Do you believe in divine terma or not?

 

Yes or no?

[RongzomFan]

If you want to live a rigid monastic life then that is your right.

 

Monastic life? Most lamas are not monks.

 

The Vajrayana tradition as a whole, with all its rules, lineages etc. are from lay Indian Mahasiddhas.

[ralis]

Monastic life? Most lamas are not monks.

 

The Vajrayana tradition as a whole, with all its rules, lineages etc. are from lay Indian Mahasiddhas.

 

I have taken teachings since way back in the 80's and I know very well what the agenda is. That is why I left the Buddhist trip and studied Dzogchen.

 

What is your point about the rules etc. being Indian? Those rules are still very much alive in the Tibetan tradition. End of discussion. As far as I am concerned you are off topic in this thread.

 

 

[ralis]

Monastic life? Most lamas are not monks.

 

The Vajrayana tradition as a whole, with all its rules, lineages etc. are from lay Indian Mahasiddhas.

 

 

Monastic life? Most lamas are not monks.

 

The Vajrayana tradition as a whole, with all its rules, lineages etc. are from lay Indian Mahasiddhas.

 

BTW, this is a discussion in regards to Dzogchen.

[Seth Ananda]

Alwayson this is a Buddhist discussion forum. It is here so that Buddhists and non Buddhists can discuss Buddhism without being hijacked by Taoists and Vedantins {lol, though many would say it usally happened the other way around}

 

You cant try to bully someone out of this forum that is actively discussing Buddhism, with a genuine interest in Buddhism, or one aspect of it that this thread is named after...

 

If a Christian was here pretending to be Interested, but really trying to convert others to Xtianity then that would be Dodgy...

But If they were here just to have a better understanding of the tradition then that would be fine...

[RongzomFan]

As a Dzogchenpa, I believe that Dzogchen terma is primordial and sacred down to the rules and regulations.

[ralis]

As a Dzogchenpa, I believe that Dzogchen terma is primordial and sacred down to the rules and regulations.

 

That is your opinion. Then live as you wish and stop preaching.

[RongzomFan]

My main concern is people claiming to be teachers who are not authorised to do so and disinformation spread about Dzogchen. I am not a teacher.

 

The discussing of cosmogony and how it relates to thogel is something best left off the Internet. It all begins with guru yoga; there really is not any ‘higher practice’. An authentic guru has already achieved total realization; just being in their presence can be liberating and corrective.

 

I sorry to harp on about Guru this Guru that but its been mistakenly targeted as cultural baggage. The importance of the Guru cannot be emphasised enough, otherwise there is real danger of the teachings becoming diluted.

 

I am aware that Rinpoche is teaching from his own terma, we are very fortunate. I argued that his sharing of Dzogchen was a break from tradition, to counter the claims that the Tibetans are holding on to the teachings for them selves.

 

To paraphrase Rinpoche: if someone has knowledge of Dzogchen, it is far more beneficial for that individual to practice and teach within the organisation that he is overseeing. "There I am by the grace..' etc

 

As for card games and day trading, who cares.

 

 

I agree with you completely. And welcome to the forum. We need more Buddhist members on the Buddhist forum.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was listening to a podcast by Alan Wallace today wherein he claimed that Vajrayana has the practice of Dzogchen in it, but that the practice of Dzogchen does not have any "Buddhism" in it.

That intrigued me.

 

Alan Wallace said that in podcast #16, Dzogchen retreat Day 4 afternoon part 1, start listening at 1:50:00 ...

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

"He really is talking about Dzogchen meditation, not just shamatha"

"You aren't bringing any Buddhism in."

"Exactly what part of this is Buddhist?"

"Its a core Buddhist practice but there is no part of it that is really Buddhist".

 

 

I researched a bit.. There is a discussion about this on the DW:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3053

 

Here, Malcolm is arguing that Dzogchen that is part of Buddhism based on the fact that Dzogchen and Buddhism contain the same ideologies and concepts. However, this type of argument is denying the history of Dzogchen.. that it predates Buddhism.

 

Here is what Tenzin Wangyal says about Bon:

 

 

Bön (Tib: bon). Bön is the indigenous spiritual tradition of Tibet. It predates Indian Buddhism. Although scholars disagree about the origin of Bön, the tradition itself claims an unbroken lineage seventeen thousand years old. Similar to Tibetan Buddhist sects, particularly the Nyingma, Bön is distinguished by a distinctive iconography, a rich shamanic tradition, and a separate lineage reaching back to the Buddha Shenrab Miwoche rather than to Shakyamuni Buddha.

Rinpoche, Tenzin Wangyal (2002-05-25). Healing with Form, Energy, and Light: The Five Elements in Tibetan Shamanism, Tantra, and Dzogchen (Kindle Locations 3189-3192). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

 

So, if Bon Dzogchen came first, and then then Buddhists picked it up, just because a person is a Dzogchenpa, doesn't mean that he/she is a Buddhist.

 

TI

Edited March 13, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Yes, you can be a pure Dzogchenpa like Norbu, Malcolm or myself with no other religion.

[RongzomFan]

you can be:

 

Buddhist Dzogchenpa

Bon Dzogchenpa

 

pure Dzogchenpa

[Tibetan_Ice]

Yes, you can be a pure Dzogchenpa like Norbu, Malcolm or myself with no other religion.

 

So C N Norbu is your guru?

 

And he has given you samaya?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Alwayson,

 

You said:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27366-dzogchen-teachings/?p=414191

 

As a Dzogchenpa, I believe that Dzogchen terma is primordial and sacred down to the rules and regulations."

 

Here is what C N Norbu says about samaya:

 

Chapter 46

This chapter concerns samaya, commitment, one of the ten main topics of the tantras: on receiving an initiation there is always a specific commitment to observe. There are many kinds of samayas: in the mahayoga, for example, there are fourteen main ones. As all deeds are done through the body, voice, and mind, the samayas, too, must be complied with on the basis of these three aspects. However, in Dzogchen the principle is different. When, in daily life, one remains in the natural state, abiding in awareness and presence, there are no rules to observe, there is nothing specific one has to do: it is enough not to get distracted, remaining in present awareness. Our text talks of the principle of "samayaless samaya" because there is not the limiting consideration of having to perform a particular action. In Dzogchen, commitment is not something one has to uphold with effort because the nature of the state of consciousness is the unborn, beyond all limitations: this is its condition, and real samaya simply consists in the presence of this knowledge.

 

Dzogchen talks of four characteristic samayas: (1) medpa, or absence-as all is empty from the beginning there is nothing to confirm; (2) chalwa, or omnipresence-this is clarity that manifests; (3) chigpu, or single-the state of the individual as pure, non-dual presence; (4) lhundriub, or self-perfected. In short, this means that the state of consciousness of each individual is the center of the universe. The condition of each person is like the sun beyond the clouds. Even though at times the clouds obscure the sun so that we cannot see it, the quality of the sun always exists and never changes. That is why the state is said to be Ihundrub, self-perfected from the origin. A realized being may seem different from us, but the only difference is that he or she has overcome the obstacle of the clouds and lives where the sun shines. So, we must recognize and have these four samayas, whose gist is that as practitioners we should never get distracted-this is our only real commitment!

 

On taking vows, a monk must obey them as his rules of life until he reaches the level of self-discipline. In a certain sense, he is conditioned by the Vinaya rules. Conversely, in Dzogchen there is no need to impose any rules that condition the individual because any rules devised by man derive from a dualistic consideration of reality. If we have awareness, there is no need of outer rules, which is why there is said to be no commitment to observe. Obviously, as long as one remains undistracted in the condition of the state of consciousness, there is no need of anything else, but if this is not the case, then self-control of the three doors is necessary.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Andriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra Of Dzogchen Semde Kunjed Gyalpo (Kindle Locations 1285-1289). Kindle Edition.

 

 

So, according to C N Norbu, there are no rules and regulations within the context of taking vows, samaya with regards to Dzogchen.

 

So what are you talking about? Are you making this all up about "rules and regulations"?

 

Did C N Norbu force you to make promises behind the scenes even though he writes that there are "no outer rules"?

 

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

In the part you did not bold, it says very clearly this is talking about complex daily Vajrayana commitments that some people have.

[Simple_Jack]

Alwayson,

 

You said:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/27366-dzogchen-teachings/?p=414191

 

 

 

Here is what C N Norbu says about samaya:

 

 

 

So, according to C N Norbu, there are no rules and regulations within the context of taking vows, samaya with regards to Dzogchen.

 

So what are you talking about? Are you making this all up about "rules and regulations"?

 

Did C N Norbu force you to make promises behind the scenes even though he writes that there are "no outer rules"?

 

 

TI

 

In Vajrayana, you receive certain commitments related to practice or conduct, when receiving an empowerment. What ChNN is talking about is when one continues in the state of rigpa, there is no need to follow or uphold any other complex commitments. When one continues in a state of rigpa: All samaya's of body, speech and mind are fulfilled, without conducting oneself in an artificially contrived way.

[Simple_Jack]

In Vajrayana, you receive certain commitments related to practice or conduct, when receiving an empowerment. What ChNN is talking about is when one continues in the state of rigpa, there is no need to follow or uphold any other complex commitments. When one continues in a state of rigpa: All samaya's of body, speech and mind are fulfilled, without conducting oneself in an artificially contrived way.

Of course, this does not mean that ChNN encourages his students to openly blabber about aspects of Dzogchen (i.e. its practices) to the uninitiated.

[Simple_Jack]

I was listening to a podcast by Alan Wallace today wherein he claimed that Vajrayana has the practice of Dzogchen in it, but that the practice of Dzogchen does not have any "Buddhism" in it.

That intrigued me.

 

Alan Wallace said that in podcast #16, Dzogchen retreat Day 4 afternoon part 1, start listening at 1:50:00 ...

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

"He really is talking about Dzogchen meditation, not just shamatha"

"You aren't bringing any Buddhism in."

"Exactly what part of this is Buddhist?"

"Its a core Buddhist practice but there is no part of it that is really Buddhist".

 

 

I researched a bit.. There is a discussion about this on the DW:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3053

 

Here, Malcolm is arguing that Dzogchen that is part of Buddhism based on the fact that Dzogchen and Buddhism contain the same ideologies and concepts. However, this type of argument is denying the history of Dzogchen.. that it predates Buddhism.

 

Here is what Tenzin Wangyal says about Bon:

 

 

 

 

So, if Bon Dzogchen came first, and then then Buddhists picked it up, just because a person is a Dzogchenpa, doesn't mean that he/she is a Buddhist.

 

TI

That thread you linked, is an old thread with old opinions of Malcolms. Malcolm has changed his views since then.

 

What does Malcolm's opinion have to do with this anyway?

Edited March 14, 2013 by Simple_Jack