Some Vedanta traps I've come across....

[3bob]

It is that which we can not work out by ourselves, although "ultimately" or the "absolute" is non-duality...

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi DreamLight Fugitive

Thank you so much for writing all of that, for taking the time and responding to my questions.

 

I found this link of one of Swartz's chapters from the book.

http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/assets/blog/1/How%20to%20Attain%20Enlightenment%20Chapter%202%20for%20Chris.pdf

 

It's just not for me. My vocabulary and understanding is totally different. He doesn't appear to be teaching Ramana or Nisargadatta either.. Not sure what he is teaching.

I am glad you are getting some value out of his writings.

 

How old is Vedanta?

Bon, a type of Buddhist Dzogchen is reputed to be over 17,000 years old.

 

TI

[3bob]

The meaning I was getting at is called Grace; Grace from the Self to the Self through Sat Guru, thus a type of help beyond even that of the great heavenly realms. Preparation is important and there a hundred thousand forms of that type of help and discipline but...

[gatito]

Hey TI

 

As Francis Lucille appeals to you; could I suggest that you might want to join his free (or donation) on-line satsangs.

 

They are exactly the same satsang and the only bonus if you donate is that you will receive a link to download a recording of the event in case you have an internet connection issue.

 

You can email him questions which he will answer on-line and, from time-to-time, there are webcasts which enable face-to-face questions (if you have a webcam )

 

http://www.francislucille.com/

 

http://www.meetup.com/Advaita/

 

https://www.facebook.com/francislucille

 

You'll find that he would answer your questions clearly and he can discuss these things from a Buddhist perspective as well.

 

And............perhaps if you wanted to try to put Francis in a box - he might not be welcomed in this forum either because his teacher (Jean Klein) was a Kashmiri Shaivist (who also knew Sri Atmananda - Krishna Menon ).

 

Warmest regards

 

G

 

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hey TI

 

As Francis Lucille appeals to you; could I suggest that you might want to join his free (or donation) on-line satsangs.

 

They are exactly the same satsang and the only bonus if you donate is that you will receive a link to download a recording of the event in case you have an internet connection issue.

 

You can email him questions which he will answer on-line and, from time-to-time, there are webcasts which enable face-to-face questions (if you have a webcam )

 

http://www.francislucille.com/

 

http://www.meetup.com/Advaita/

 

https://www.facebook.com/francislucille

 

You'll find that he would answer your questions clearly and he can discuss these things from a Buddhist perspective as well.

 

And............perhaps if you wanted to try to put Francis in a box - he might not be welcomed in this forum either because his teacher (Jean Klein) was a Kashmiri Shaivist (who also knew Sri Atmananda - Krishna Menon ).

 

Warmest regards

 

G

Hi Gatito

Thank you very much for the information, links and invitation. I appreciate it.

The webinars seem to start in March. Are there any in February?

 

Jean Klein.. his biography says"

Then one morning,

"between deep sleep and awakening, there was a sudden vanishing of all the

residues of 'my persons', each having believed themselves hitherto to be a doer, a

sufferer, an enjoyer. All this vanished completely, and I was seized in full

consciousness by an all-penetrating light, without inside or outside. This was the

awakening in Reality, in the I am...I knew myself in the actual happening, not as a

concept, but as a being without localisation in time or space. In this non-state

there was a freedom, full and objectless joy." (ibid., vii)

This realization is regarded by those who have accepted Dr. Klein as their teacher

as 'total illumination'.

 

 

I wouldn't say that this is total illumination, because I have experienced that a few times now and I'm not fully enlightened..

 

Yes, there is joy, and immense bliss. And everything feels like everything is 'you'. The conceptual mind is gone, but it's still there, waiting in the background to come back to life. You 'are' everything. Everything shines and radiates. It is the best state in the whole wide world. Like looking into the face of God. And if someone could please show me how to make that permanent, I would be eternally grateful.

 

 

TI

Edited January 25, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[ॐDominicusॐ]

I just wanted to mirror some of TI's thoughts in this regard as well when it comes to Francis Lucille.

 

I too have had experiences like Lucille, Absolute Illumination, seeing that the mind/body is not me, and a vast box of chocolates (Miscellaneous experiences).

 

But like I said earlier, I'm beginning to witness stages of prolonged periods of all vasanas silenced. Experiences that Swartz mentioned....... Had those too. So the question is, should I now be teaching like Swartz & Lucille? To me, I don't care ...maybe there is some reluctant bodhisatva somewhere in me, and I have shared the Advaita message with a dozen associates and watched as those who were ripe, through words, realized this Absolute Self.....

 

Truth be told ......the Love is in the solitude, the silence, Being, stillness, the Now, Vastness, absorption, Love, and yes even Grace plays a part. Not from some Guru, but perhaps from the Absolute itself.

 

I think personally, the whole Vedanta deal is specifically pointed towards the Absolute and ignoring all the extras. Though they be inevitable, the way my whole body would burn in fiery heat just from Neti Neti practice, Vedanta will always include the scenery along the way. They don't discuss it, because they are distractions ....just keep going neti neti, neti neti......

 

My biggest thing, which I find solace in Vedanta (and I know this is of the "mind") is that I will do whatever it takes to never have to come back to this Earth Realm again. I think to realize Self and permanent abidance as That, is the only 1 way ticket outta here.

[amoyaan]

It is that which we can not work out by ourselves, although "ultimately" or the "absolute" is non-duality...

 

Yeah, I've studied enlightenment for years. What i've learned is that it's not something we really control. Heck do we (the 'doer' entity) even really control anything? We can't even really control our thoughts or emotions...we don't know what we'll be thinking or feeling in 10 mins. We don't really control our body. Although we have a limited level of control certainly.

 

So yeah, if I understand what you're getting at. Enlightenment just happens by a kind of grace, same with epihanies and visions etc. We can cultivate the right circumstances or means for them to happen but that doesn't mean they will necessarily happen. All depends on so many factors. I like the zen story where the master says that enlightenment is an accident, not something we can really control or make happen. The student asked what the point of all the meditation, study and preparation was then. The master smiled and said 'it makes you more accident prone'. So yeah, all the preparation helps clear out the mind and make it like a still lake in which the light of the sun (Self) can shine brightly, enabling us to eventually assimilate the realisation that we are the Self and not the doer. That's the true grace. It'll happen by itself I guess when we are ready and not before

[amoyaan]

Hi DreamLight Fugitive

Thank you so much for writing all of that, for taking the time and responding to my questions.

 

Hey. No problem. I love talking about this stuff. I love a deep meaningful conversation. Imagine the fun all of us would have spending a lazy afternoon in a coffee shop chatting about this

 

I found this link of one of Swartz's chapters from the book.

http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/assets/blog/1/How%20to%20Attain%20Enlightenment%20Chapter%202%20for%20Chris.pdf

 

It's just not for me. My vocabulary and understanding is totally different. He doesn't appear to be teaching Ramana or Nisargadatta either.. Not sure what he is teaching.

 

Yup that's one of the initial chapters. The book spends a fair amount of time laying out groundwork. The real meaty stuff is later on. But if you don't relate to it or feel an aversion to him or his style of teaching it's prob not for you. It's not for everyone.

 

What he is teaching is traditional advaita vedanta. It's a very specific and rigorous style of teaching and a specific methodology and style of unfoldment that stretches back centuries. From what I gather Swartz is one of only a handful of teachers that do this in English. The only other I know of is Swami Dayandana. Both he and Swartz were students of Swami Chinmayanda and they carry on the tradition.

 

Ramana and Nisargadatta were not vedanta teachers per se. Though they essentially taught vedanta, what they did was base their teachings on their own experiences and rather than have a specific format to their teaching and way of unfolding its tenets, they had satsang Q&As. They were not neo advaitins, but they were kind of the inspiration for the neo advaita style of teaching. They were both absolutely amazing and I love them and the collections of their teachings. They just kind of taught their own thing and often changed their teaching depending on who they were talking to. This has caused some confusion for people. On another forum someone was talking about how Ramana said that the 'heart' is in the right hand side of the chest. They actually believed he meant this literally and that he wasn't quite human or was extraterrestrial or something. I'm not joking.

 

I am glad you are getting some value out of his writings.

 

How old is Vedanta?

Bon, a type of Buddhist Dzogchen is reputed to be over 17,000 years old.

 

TI

 

Wow. That seems odd that a type of Buddhism could predate the Buddha by that far! I guess it must incorporate elements of far older traditions? I don't know anything about it so couldn't comment.

 

The Vedas, the basis of vedanta stretch back at least 5,000 years but possibly far longer. Some of the newer Vedas were written in the past few hundreds years. There are a lot. Over time the teachings of the vedas were correlated into a specific system that kind of evolved over the millennia. The renowned Shankara was responsible for consolidating and revivifying vedanta in the 9th century and is very much the father of what is known as advaita vedanta. His work is amazing in itself. Guy was truly a genius

[amoyaan]

But like I said earlier, I'm beginning to witness stages of prolonged periods of all vasanas silenced. Experiences that Swartz mentioned....... Had those too. So the question is, should I now be teaching like Swartz & Lucille? To me, I don't care ...maybe there is some reluctant bodhisatva somewhere in me, and I have shared the Advaita message with a dozen associates and watched as those who were ripe, through words, realized this Absolute Self.....

 

I guess there are no 'shoulds'. It would depend on whether you felt teaching was your dharma. If it's something you are good at and enjoy then that's probably a sign it is. If not, there may be other ways you are innately meant to express it

 

Truth be told ......the Love is in the solitude, the silence, Being, stillness, the Now, Vastness, absorption, Love, and yes even Grace plays a part. Not from some Guru, but perhaps from the Absolute itself.

 

I think personally, the whole Vedanta deal is specifically pointed towards the Absolute and ignoring all the extras. Though they be inevitable, the way my whole body would burn in fiery heat just from Neti Neti practice, Vedanta will always include the scenery along the way. They don't discuss it, because they are distractions ....just keep going neti neti, neti neti......

 

My biggest thing, which I find solace in Vedanta (and I know this is of the "mind") is that I will do whatever it takes to never have to come back to this Earth Realm again. I think to realize Self and permanent abidance as That, is the only 1 way ticket outta here.

 

I think you'd be a good teacher. I like reading the way you express this. I feel an urge to teach it as well, part of my dharma is writing. Though I still consider myself a student it's amazing how I've been presented opportunities to share this. Including on a blog and my novel which is being published this year (I found a way to slip vedanta and taoism into it ). It'll be a long while (if ever) before I hang a sign above my door and advertise myself as a spiritual teacher, but as I continue to learn and relax into Self there seem to be more opportunities to share this...including with a family member who I've watched transform as they assimilate the knowledge

[dwai]

Hi DreamLight Fugitive

Thank you so much for writing all of that, for taking the time and responding to my questions.

 

I found this link of one of Swartz's chapters from the book.

http://www.stillnessspeaks.com/assets/blog/1/How%20to%20Attain%20Enlightenment%20Chapter%202%20for%20Chris.pdf

 

It's just not for me. My vocabulary and understanding is totally different. He doesn't appear to be teaching Ramana or Nisargadatta either.. Not sure what he is teaching.

I am glad you are getting some value out of his writings.

 

How old is Vedanta?

Bon, a type of Buddhist Dzogchen is reputed to be over 17,000 years old.

 

TI

 

Vedanta is really not one "book". There are ten that are considered the principal books (dashopanishad). They vary in age, some of these easily predate budhha (siddhartha) by a few thousand years (going by traditional indian chronology), some a few hundred.

 

The oldest "system" in the indic traditions (astika) is purva mimamsa, which dates back to early vedic periods...so dates around 7000 bce are very likely.

 

Why does the age matter?

[3bob]

Lord Siva as Lord Nataraja dances here on earth and everywhere else in all realms at once... and part of that dance is revealing Grace.

 

Om

[Tibetan_Ice]

Vedanta is really not one "book". There are ten that are considered the principal books (dashopanishad). They vary in age, some of these easily predate budhha (siddhartha) by a few thousand years (going by traditional indian chronology), some a few hundred. The oldest "system" in the indic traditions (astika) is purva mimamsa, which dates back to early vedic periods...so dates around 7000 bce are very likely. Why does the age matter?

 

Hi Dwai

I don't know if age matters or not. Maybe the oldest teachings have the least amount of distortion/editing/revamping/interpretation/complication.. I don't know. But the Bon practices are very simple. Perhaps they are the root of everything else. Who knows. I like simple. Like Tenzin Wangal says "Silence, Stillness, Openess/space - connect with heart". Simple. Five lights, five elements.. simple..

I mean, look at how people have changed the Bible throughout the years. Old testament, new testament, Other versions, loss of meaning of words in translations etc.. History didn't start 2013 years ago, nor 5000 years ago.. 17,000 years is allot older, wouldn't you agree?

 

TI

[dwai]

 

Hi Dwai

I don't know if age matters or not. Maybe the oldest teachings have the least amount of distortion/editing/revamping/interpretation/complication.. I don't know. But the Bon practices are very simple. Perhaps they are the root of everything else. Who knows. I like simple. Like Tenzin Wangal says "Silence, Stillness, Openess/space - connect with heart". Simple. Five lights, five elements.. simple..

I mean, look at how people have changed the Bible throughout the years. Old testament, new testament, Other versions, loss of meaning of words in translations etc.. History didn't start 2013 years ago, nor 5000 years ago.. 17,000 years is allot older, wouldn't you agree?

 

TI

 

Luckily for us the oral tradition of Vedic transmissions ensure no distortion in data. Interpretation might change

[Tibetan_Ice]

Luckily for us the oral tradition of Vedic transmissions ensure no distortion in data. Interpretation might change

 

Have you ever played the game where you get ten people to stand in a line and then you tell the first person a sentence? Then the first person repeats the sentence to the second person, the second person repeats it to the third, and so on.

The reason why it is so funny is because the last person's sentence never resembles the original sentence..

 

TI

[dwai]

 

Have you ever played the game where you get ten people to stand in a line and then you tell the first person a sentence? Then the first person repeats the sentence to the second person, the second person repeats it to the third, and so on.

The reason why it is so funny is because the last person's sentence never resembles the original sentence..

 

TI

 

You should research on mnemonics used to memorize the Vedas . All misconceptions will be quelled

[Tibetan_Ice]

You should research on mnemonics used to memorize the Vedas . All misconceptions will be quelled

Hi Dwai

Why memorize when there exists the akashic records?

 

TI

[Boy]

...

Edited February 9, 2013 by Boy

[dwai]

Hi Dwai

Why memorize when there exists the akashic records?

 

TI

 

Why learn multiplication tables when there is the Internet ?

[gatito]

Hi Gatito

Thank you very much for the information, links and invitation. I appreciate it.

The webinars seem to start in March. Are there any in February?

 

Keep an eye on the Meetup site and "friend" Francis on Facebook

 

Jean Klein.. his biography says"

 

 

I wouldn't say that this is total illumination, because I have experienced that a few times now and I'm not fully enlightened..

 

Yes, there is joy, and immense bliss. And everything feels like everything is 'you'. The conceptual mind is gone, but it's still there, waiting in the background to come back to life. You 'are' everything. Everything shines and radiates. It is the best state in the whole wide world. Like looking into the face of God. And if someone could please show me how to make that permanent, I would be eternally grateful.

 

 

TI

 

Jean Klein was not only his teacher but he was also his close personal friend; so ask Francis directly

 

My guess is that you'll be eternally grateful

[Boy]

...

Edited February 9, 2013 by Boy

[gatito]

(...keeping in mind that states are never permanent, of course.)

 

Of course....but remember that Ananda is not a "state" Cheeky_Boy - LOL

[forestofemptiness]

Here are a bunch more Vedanta traps:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mariana-caplan-phd/spiritual-living-10-spiri_b_609248.html

 

The most common I've seen is Identifying with Spiritual Experiences and The Deadly Virus I Have Arrived.

[dwai]

Here are a bunch more Vedanta traps:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mariana-caplan-phd/spiritual-living-10-spiri_b_609248.html

 

The most common I've seen is Identifying with Spiritual Experiences and The Deadly Virus I Have Arrived.

How are these exclusively Vedanta traps? They are traps in any spiritual tradition

[Tibetan_Ice]

Why learn multiplication tables when there is the Internet ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

 

The akashic records are described as containing all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos. They are often metaphorically described as a library; other analogies commonly found in discourse on the subject include a "universal supercomputer" and the "Mind of God". People who describe the records assert that they are constantly updated automatically and that they can be accessed through astral projection^[1] or under deep hypnosis. The concept was popularized in the theosophical movements of the 19th century and is derived from Hindu philosophy of Samkhya. It is promulgated in the Samkhya philosophy that the Akashic records are automatically recorded in the elements of akasha one of the five types of elements visualized as existing in the elemental theory of Ancient India, called Mahabhuta.

In the Mahabharata mention is made of Chitragupta (lit. "hidden picture"). He is the son of Brahma and a minister of Dharma and his duty is to examine a list of the good and evil actions of men (the Agrasamdhani) after their death. "Nothing is lost of either piety or sin that is committed by creatures. On days of the full moon and the new moon, those acts are conveyed to the Sun where they rest. When a mortal goes into the region of the dead, the deity of the Sun bears witness to all his acts. He that is righteous acquires the fruits of his righteousness there." (Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva, Section 130, Ganguli trans.) The term akashic records is frequently used in New Age discourse.

[edit] Accounts of purported akashic access

C.W. Leadbeater, who claimed to be clairvoyant, conducted research into the akashic records. He said he inspected them at the Theosophical Society headquarters in Adyar (Tamil Nadu), India in 1910 and recorded the results in his book Man: How, Whence, and Whither? The book reputes to record the history of Atlantis and other civilizations as well as the future society of Earth in the 28th century.^[2]

Alice A. Bailey writes in her book Light of the Soul on The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali - Book 3 - Union achieved and its Results:

 

"The akashic record is like an immense photographic film, registering all the desires and earth experiences of our planet. Those who perceive it will see pictured thereon: The life experiences of every human being since time began, the reactions to experience of the entire animal kingdom, the aggregation of the thought-forms of a

karmic nature

(based on desire) of every human unit throughout time. Herein lies the great deception of the records. Only a trained occultist can distinguish between actual experience and those astral pictures created by imagination and keen desire."

Rudolf Steiner writes his book The Akashic Records in 1902. With his modern clairvoyant capacities he investigates the Akashic Records and reports in this book the results on for instance Atlantis, Lemuria, the evolution of man and earth, et cetera.

In The Law of One, Book I, a book purported to contain conversations with a channeled "social memory complex" known to humans as Ra, when the questioner asks where Edgar Cayce received his information, the answer received is,

 

"We have explained before that the intelligent infinity is brought into intelligent energy from eighth density or octave. The one sound vibratory complex called Edgar used this gateway to view the present, which is

not the continuum you experience but the potential social memory complex of this planetary sphere

. The term your peoples have used for this is the "Akashic Record" or the "

Hall of Records

"."

[3]

[3bob]

Yeah, I've studied enlightenment for years. What i've learned is that it's not something we really control. Heck do we (the 'doer' entity) even really control anything? We can't even really control our thoughts or emotions...we don't know what we'll be thinking or feeling in 10 mins. We don't really control our body. Although we have a limited level of control certainly.

 

So yeah, if I understand what you're getting at. Enlightenment just happens by a kind of grace, same with epihanies and visions etc. We can cultivate the right circumstances or means for them to happen but that doesn't mean they will necessarily happen. All depends on so many factors. I like the zen story where the master says that enlightenment is an accident, not something we can really control or make happen. The student asked what the point of all the meditation, study and preparation was then. The master smiled and said 'it makes you more accident prone'. So yeah, all the preparation helps clear out the mind and make it like a still lake in which the light of the sun (Self) can shine brightly, enabling us to eventually assimilate the realisation that we are the Self and not the doer. That's the true grace. It'll happen by itself I guess when we are ready and not before

 

I'd comment that we do nothing except by the power of Spirit and part of that Spirit is the "still small voice" which does know vice from virtue, dharma from anti-dharma and in that sense guides one or soul to do correctly... or not miss the mark.