What is Jin(勁) in Tai Ji Quan with a Scientific Explanation...!?

[ChiDragon]

celestial....

 

Video-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf4taeqht0

 

Thank you for this presentation. I will borrow the video to help me to start this new thread.

 

I hear what they are saying almost in all of my life. Somehow, I cant take it for granted. I do not like to think that something is what it is because somebody said so. Thus just for my curiosity and satisfaction, I would like to look deeper than what they are telling me. I figured with all the modern science and technologies, I ought to be able to come up with some kind of satisfying explanations about the ancient arts in Chi Kung, Tai Ji, Nei Gong and etc.

 

May I give this an evaluation with the best of my knowledge. I will explain what is going in the body of both practitioners with modern scientific principles. I will apply the law of physics and physiology of the human body to back up my reasoning.

Edited December 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

This video Master Chen Ziaowang talks about lots about Jin(勁) and Fa Jin(發勁).

 

Video-2.

 

The translations in the video are very poor and misleading.

I would like to translate them again.

1. Use this method to look for best position for frame.

1. Use this method(by standing still) to find the best position for the stance(架子).

 

2. after being skillful discard this frame.

2. After the adeptness, then there is no need to use this stance anymore.

 

3. If you fight

3. If you get into a fight.

 

4. when you are standing frame.

4. By the time you take the peng(棚) stance.

 

5. Peng he will attack to you.

5. His attack was being launched at you already.

 

6. without frame this frame seeks for best position.

6. Without any stance, this stance(at 0:40) will find the best position.

 

7. Then how to do rapidly.

7. Then how to do it quickly.

 

oops......Dinner time, I will continue.....

Edited December 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Imperial]

I don't know if you have seen this before, but this also talks about 勁:

http://www.adamhsu.c...og_FaJing1.html (Part 1)

http://www.adamhsu.c...og_FaJing2.html (Part 2)

[ChiDragon]

Video-2

 

Continue at 0:50

9. there is not difference among shoulder elbow and fist.

9. The shoulder, elbow, and the fist are the same.

 

10. move from this place three forces.

10. Move from here(waist), the three sources of Jin(勁).

 

11. the first one is groin force.

11. The first source is the groin jin(襠勁).

 

12. the second one is waist force.

12. The second source is waist jin(腰勁).

 

13. the third one is chest and shoulder.

13. The third source are the chest and shoulder jin((胸肩勁).

 

14. generally in the course of beginning to learn.

14. Usually, at the beginning of the learning course.

 

15. particular about too much application use chest force.

15. Particularly, there are too many applications. If the chest jin(胸勁) was applied,

 

16. then you will forget waist force and groin force.

16. Then you will neglect the waist jin and groin jin.

 

17. attend to one thing and lose another.

17. If you pay attention to a particular one, then you will neglect the others.

 

18. what is groin force?

18. Wat is called the groin jin?

 

19. stand with staggering both legs this is groin force.

19. Standing with both legs separated in opposite is called groin jin.

 

20. the force on leg is named as groin force.

20. The jin on the thigh is called the groin jin.

 

21. the driving force produced from waist is named as waist force.

21. The active force generated from the waist is called the waist jin.

 

22. then use chest & shoulder force sense and qi additionally.

22. Then combines with the significance of the chest and shoulder jins.

 

I will pause at 1:40....!!!

 

Note: The next translation is very critical to understand jin(勁).

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Video-2

 

Continue at 1:40

 

23. what is the movement error?

23. What is the deviation within the movements?

 

24. right this is error(Observe the incorrectness from 1:50).

24. Yes, this is called the deviation(誤差).

 

25. the larger eror is the smaller moved qi flow will be

25. The greater the deviation, the amount of the inner qi was circulated much less.

 

26. inner qi interpenetrates muscle to produce driving force

26. The inner qi merges with the muscle to generate the active force.

 

27. push me look he pushes me

27. Push me! Look he pushes me!

 

28. although he fails to move me his force is large.

28. Even though he did not make me move but his strength is not small.

 

29. Isn't it push again step forward.

29. Isn't it right? Let's do it again, step forward.

 

30. put this foot froward step forward.

30. Put this foot in front then step forward.

 

31. push me backward push me again push with force.

31. The "little devil is pushing the grinder", pushing me again; use jin to push.

 

32. do you exert force any longer why are you have no force.

32. Do you still have jin or have no jin? How come you have no more jin...???

 

33. look why does he not exert force

33. Look! How come he has no jin...???

 

34. qi cannot interpenetrate

34. It is because that the qi cannot merge(into the muscles).

 

35. the muscle cannot produce driving force.

35. This muscle(at 2.28) cannot generate the active force. Use jin again!

 

36. this is to lessen error by means of practice fist.

36. This is the way that we practice to minimize the deviation.

 

37. interpenetrate inner qi then it will be conducted to muscles

37 By linking the inner qi, then the inner qi was delivered to the muscles.

 

38. to produce driving force you shall look for this movement rule.

38. To generate the active force(動力), you need to find the activated routine.

 

39. you can exert force momentarily where you need to do so

39. From wherever needed to be Fa Jin(發勁), all can be exploded at anytime.

 

Paused at 2:50

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

You know in Video-2, Tai Ji Master Chen had mentioned the term "jin" many times. He told his disciple to use jin and he Fa Jin at the beginning of the video. When he Fa Jin, do you think that his muscles were contracted or in the "song" state....???

 

Interestingly enough that Master Chen use the term "jin" a lot in Video-2. However, during the intermission, both masters had interesting conversations with their disciples. I have noticed the Master Chen did not use the term "jin" nor "Fa Jin" to describe the force used by his opponent. In fact, he used the term "brutal force" as the description for the force being exerted by the opponent.

 

These two videos will demonstrate the difference between what is "Jin" and "brutal force". The "Jin" is an internal practice(內功, neigong) while all others are external practice(外功).

 

In Video-1, the most strong man in China(龍武, Long Wu) is using external practice. There is no need to repeat that Tai Ji was understood it is internal practice.

 

What external practice does, it only give the practitioner a little time to exert the body strength. In few minute, the practitioner will be exhausted. That's is why only one minute was given for each round; so, the competitors can recuperate for the next round to have a fair competition.

 

I will translate the conversations between the Masters and the disciples during the intermission. It is very interesting and we can learn the basic principles about Tai Ji and martial arts from their dialogues.

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Let's look at Video-1 at 3:00 first, Chen was having the same advantage with the most powerful strongest man(龍武, Long Wu) in China as with this Judo Wrestler(時晨陽).

 

Here are the vital statistic.....

Judo Wrestler(時晨陽):

Weights 180.6 Kg = 398.18 pounds

His height is taller than Chen by one head length.

Chen is half the size of his opponent.

 

By observation:

Chen has the advantage for being shorter because he can use his right shoulder to go against the chest of the opponent. Chen was using the best stance to anchor himself on the ground. As we can see that the feet of his opponent are slipping which indicates he has poor leverage and no Zhan Zhuang experience. Unfortunately, the worse of all, he has no "Jin". The only advantage was his own body wights plus a little push. The reason I said that was because the opponent was leaning his body against the shoulder of Mater Chen. When his moving his legs, his body did not go anywhere.

 

The stance held by the legs of Master Chen had hardly moved. The advantage that Master Chen has is his Jin acquired from the practice of Tai Ji Quan. He was using his Jin to hold himself in place.

 

Let's look at their competitive situation from the physical structure of both men. There is no way that a normal average person can withstand such heavy weight of the Judo Wrestler. By the law of physics in momentum, the high mass always pushes the lower mass away. In Video-1, we see two masses are pushing against each other. However, the lower mass was able to withstand the higher mass. How can we explain that...???

 

In Video-1, at 2:45, a triangular theory was presented about using the torso and the legs to form a triangle with the ground. Chen claimed that any external pushing force is going through his body can be canceled by manipulating the inner strength inside the body. Thus the pushing force can be directed to the ground through the legs. He also claims as long as the triangle was there, then he can stand as a mountain.

 

If we go back to the video at 1:46, Master Chen is standing on one leg against a pushing force which contradicted the Triangular theory. How are we going to explain that without physics and physiology....???

Edited December 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Wells]

 

Michael Phillips. The Force is strong with him!

Michael Phillips: "Fajin is a hydraulic (kinetic) pulse wave, coming from tantien and flowing through the fluids of your body into the body of the opponent."

[ChiDragon]

Dialogue in Video-1

 

Round 1 starts at 5:05

After the one minute Round 1...........

 

Long Wu(龍武) was almost out of breath. The almost seventy years old Master Chen was walked away seems like nothing had happened but he said he had used a tremendous amount of yuen chi(元氣, innate energy).

 

Chen said: " Long Wu's strength is very genuine, it is more genuine then others in comparison. This is the first time that I have to use full throttle(against someone)."

 

Long Wu: "I cannot exert any force at all, in one flash, the force was just slipping on his body.

 

Chen: "His force was, even though, very genuine and very big. It was a brutal force."

 

Long: "I felt that was my first time encounter, and also I felt that was the first time I had encountered this kind of strength. We have a difference between our occupational strengths."

 

Chen: "I can win him by the principle of using the soft to overcome the hard."

 

Long: "His center of gravity originally was low(at 7:10), it was below his buttock. I pushed him here. Then next time I will push him even lower. Right, I think that I may give it a try."

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Dialogue from Video-1

 

After Round 2.....

 

Long: "This round was much better than the previous round."

 

Girl asked: "This time was the strength big?"

Chen: "It was big."

 

Girl again: "How much did he used this time?"

Chen: "100 %"

 

Long: "His point of strength and where is the point of cancellation between his and my strengths, basically, I cannot find it.

Chen: "He used full throttle and still not able to push me to move."

 

Long: "Therefore, during the course that I was in the moving process, actually I had changed my step position. At the beginning, I was at my right side. Then, at the time I turned to his back at the right, there was a big sway on his whole body."

 

Chen: "It is because occasionally, he was just changing his strength but he knows how to make changes. He changes very rapidly."

 

Long: "If I make often single moves, he can cancel my moves a lot easier. Only if my speed in the moves are quick enough, while he is in the worse situation, then his reaction wouldn't be as quick as I am."

 

Girl reporter: "In facing his changing in strength, how would you handle it?"

Chan: "He makes changes, I would too."

 

Long: "Only I make my moves quick enough and his reaction cannot keep up with my speed; I definitely will beat him in the next round."

 

Chen: "I know at last he will be more aggressive. I am already aware of it."

 

Long: "Therefore, I will move quickly and exert force again. That's right. I should not have any problem."

Edited December 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[minkus]

Thank you for the translation of the first video of GM Chen Xiaowang My sigung !

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for the translation of the first video of GM Chen Xiaowang My sigung !

 

You welcome and thank you....!!!

 

"My sigung(師公)" ......

How did I earn such high respect....???

 

There are more coming. It will be the climax of the evaluation of this thread.

[ChiDragon]

Video-2

 

Continue at 3:05

 

1. where you are attacked where you fight back.

1. You will strike where you were being attacked.

 

2. I do not know how to do concretely

2. I didn't know it was a quale but then it was a quale.

 

3. Then nowhere is there not fists around body.

3. Then, there is nowhere on your body was not a fist.

 

4. not only this part

4. It is not only this here.

 

5. so does this part.

5. This place is the same(strike toward the right front).

 

6. so does this part.

6. This place is the same(strike toward the left rear).

 

7. nowhere is there not fists around body

7. The fists were grown allover the body.

 

8. what kind of fist any method can be generalized into one.

8. No matter what kind of fist, all were integrated into one.

 

9. one movement rule

9. An activated routine

 

10. move dantian move it wherever here.

10. When the dantian moves, wherever it was pointed to, then it will go here(his right hand is pointing toward the front).

 

11. move it backward backward

11. If made it go to the rear, then it goes toward the rear.

 

12. move it toward lateral side

12. If made it go to the side, then it goes to the side.

 

13. what shall be done just is this movement

13. In order to make this move,

 

14............(Did not show the characters)

14. (Follow his hand motion on the dantian)

 

15. just like firing gun

15. It was just like firing a gun.

 

16. where you aim at where you can hit

16. You hit where you were aimed.

 

17. move leftward rightward forward and backward

17. When moved toward the left, right, front and rear,

 

18. find some position

18. Find that particular position,

 

19. Slow force is soft strength fast force is exerted strength

19. The slow strength is the soft Jin(柔勁); the fast strength is Fa Jin(發勁).

 

20. Shoulder can exert force so can elbow and chest

20. Shoulder can Fa Jin; elbow can Fa jin and chest can Fa Jin.

 

21. all points can exert force

21. All the joint locations also can Fa Jin.

 

22. it is unnecessary to introduce one by one

22. It is not necessary to introduce them one by one.

 

23. the following force I will introduce to you is the unexpected one for you

23. Next, I will introduce a Jin! Frequently, It is a Jin that no one had ever thought of.

 

24. that is the foot swinging.

24. It is just the swaying leg.

 

25. Why shall you beat your own foot

25. Say that one is hitting one's own foot for what?

 

26. for example how to use the method of beating your own foot.

26. For example, how to apply the method of one is hitting one's own foot...???

 

27. catch my shoulder both hands

27. Hold my shoulders with both hands.

 

28. wrestle step forward look

28. Wrestle, step forward and watch out!

 

29. this is foot swinging

29. This is the swaying leg.

 

Paused at 4:34

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[gendao]

I don't know if you have seen this before, but this also talks about 勁:

http://www.adamhsu.c...og_FaJing1.html (Part 1)

http://www.adamhsu.c...og_FaJing2.html (Part 2)

Sounds great...but how do you actually generate this spiral motion? And is it energetic and/or physical spiralling?

[Imperial]

Sounds great...but how do you actually generate this spiral motion? And is it energetic and/or physical spiralling?

 

The spiral motion (of the body) comes from the feet, then onto the legs, then thighs, then the back, and then out the arms. Basically, you twist your whole body. As for the spear, it is the same thing, but you also add the spin to the spear with your arms. It is because of this that the spear is called "The King of Weapons." I'm not sure if I made sense.

 

If you're wondering about the spear motion, take a look at this video I found on YouTube (notice how he spins the spear):

[ChiDragon]

Sorry.....guys

 

This is not within the scope of the thread.....

[Imperial]

Sorry about that.

[ChiDragon]

In order to have a better understand of the whole world of the Chinese martial arts, in these dialogues, there are some basic terminologies that we should be familiarized with. Indeed, it will make it easier to explain if we have something in common.

 

These are the terms normally used by normal people and non Tai Ji practitioners.

1. 力(li): strength; natural innate body strength

2. 體力(ti3 li): body strength

3. 用力(yong4 li): use strength

4. 發力(fa li): exert body strength

 

The terms that the Tai Ji practitioners use:

1. 勁(Ji): immense strength acquired from Tai Ji practice

2. 用勁(yong4 li): use Jin

3. 發勁(fa li): execute jin

 

The usage of these terms are very distinctively in the two videos above. Master Chen always use the term "勁(jin)" or "用勁", yong3 jin. However, the strongest man in China, 龍武(Long Wu), had never used the term "勁(Jin)". As a matter of fact, he did not recognize what kind of strength that Chen was using. Indeed, he said that was the first time he had ever encountered an unknown force like that.

 

@Imperial....no problem....

Edited December 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Video-1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf4taeqht0

 

Now, it is time for the big evaluation. How can a man beat another man with bigger size and taller than him...??? Let's look at their physical appearance and practices to see how can we come to a reasonable conclusion.

 

Long Wu(龍武):

1. Heavy weight set, known as the stronger man in Asia and China.

2. His body is wider than his opponent and also taller.

3. No Ku Fung, neigong nor chi kung experience.

4. He can lift a small automobile at one end and move it laterally to park.

5. He can push a big heavy machinery truck.

6. He claims that use his pushing strength is his expertise.

 

Chen XiaoWang (陳小旺):

1. A, sixty-six year old, descendent of the eleventh generation of the Chen Style Tai Ji family.

2. He says that he is the delegate of the Chen Style Tai Ji Quan family.

3. He uses the most famous method, in the martial arts world, know as 千斤墜(qian1 jin1 chui4) to anchor himself to the ground.

Edited December 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

What are the advantages and disadvantage of both masters....???

 

Long Wu(龍武):...

Advantages:

1. Good physical structure with great body strength.

2. Taller and wider.

 

Disadvantages:

1. No zhan zhuang experience which means he has no stance for leverage.

2. No Chi Kung experience which means he is lack of breathing experience.

 

 

Chen Xiaowang(陳小旺): He is a Tai Ji Master which says all.

Advantages:

1. He has a good stance to anchor himself to the ground.

2. He holds his vertical to maintain his chi sinking to the dantian to sustain for the generation of Jin.

3. He is shorter which allows him to have his shoulder to go against the chest of the opponent for leverage.

4. He used Chi Kung to sustain his execution of his Jin.

 

Disadvantages:

1. His opponent was using full throttle against him to deplete his Jin which was making him work much harder to win.

Edited December 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

From Video-1

 

Let's look at Long Wu's position, it is the easiest to analyze. Apparently he is leaning on Chen's shoulder for support. He was lifting up his lower part of the body and moving his legs from left to right. That indicates that Chen is mostly fighting against his body weight plus not too much force exerted by Long.

 

We can look at all three rounds at 5:05, 7:26 and 11:15 to see that Long's waist was not in the vertical position at all times. That is the worse position that a martial artist wants to get into. Since he is loosing control of his breath, his oxygen level was getting lower and the lactate level was building up inside his body. Hence, his body strength was getting weaker and weaker. We can see that he had a little exhaustion at the end of round 1.

[Shagrath]

Chen Xiaowang(陳小旺): He is a Tai Ji Master which says all.

Advantages:

1. He has good stance to anchor himself to the ground.

2. He holds his vertical to maintain his chi sinking to the dantian to sustain for the generation of Jin.

3. He is shorter which allows him to have his shoulder to go against the chest of the opponent for leverage.

4. He used Chi Kung to sustain his execution of his Jin.

 

Disadvantages:

1. His opponent was using full throttle against him to deplete his Jin which was making him work much harder to win.

 

Does this mean that even once you master energy and develop strong jin, you don't have it in abundance? It can be depleted?

[Shagrath]

Thank you very much for the thread and all the posts. They are gold

[ChiDragon]

Does this mean that even once you master energy and develop strong jin, you don't have it in abundance? It can be depleted?

 

Thank you very much.

 

At the end of the thread, your questions will be answered. The purpose of this thread is to answer this kind of questions scientifically. Please be patient, I cannot say everything all at once. It is better for me to do it sequentially to keep the thoughts in order.

 

Thank you for your interest.

Edited December 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Shagrath]

OH! You have a long term plan for this thread, I didn't know. I'm sorry for interrupting.

 

You're welcome. This is one of the best things I have read in loooong time

 

Keep them (posts) coming