Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[Stosh]

_{Hi Stosh,}

 

_{You are still putting the burden on me. Hehehe. But that's okay, I can handle it.}

I was expecting Cd to do his part as an expert in the classic chinese to pick that burden up way back in the thread.

_{Okay, Let's look at the Pinyin version of Chapter 6:}

 

_{gu shen bu si,}

_{shi wei xuan pin.}

_{xuan pin zhi men,}

_{shi wei tian di gen.}

_{mian mian ruo cun,}

_{yong zhi bu qin.}

_{I don't see the word "Yin" in there anywhere.}

 

I dont either , agreed but I also dont see nu nv Shaonu or nuren I have no other idea what possible female specific words there might be

Like I said I dont speak classic or other chinese , If I did I wouldve just translated the thing myself.The only resource that I can reasonably expect to vindicate my point is the classic Chinese ...anything else ,I have to hold suspect for being distorted or biased to preconceptions about the meaning of yin and yang etc.. Heck the distortion could go back a thousand years with generation after generation perpetuating the same error._{Now, yes, I understand what you are saying. No, I'm not going to start wearing short skirts.}

Good my imagination is vivid enough thank you

_{However, Yang connotes action and Yin connotes rest. This correlates with "Wu wei" in that there will be times for action and after the action is completed it is time for rest.}

_{Sexuality has nothing to do with this. No, you don't have to start acting like a woman. Hey!, we shouldn't act anyhow - we should just be what we are, whatever that might be.}

Agreed again , if a dude was gay that would be his nature and the suggestion to live that way is consistent with acting natural But not everybody is gay or a woman and thats where It would be great to have the same sort of respect extended ,as well.

 

_{I sure hope we are getting closer to an understanding (not necessarily agreement).}

Understanding I got

testimony from CD as to the classic chinese wording,

, I dont got.

Stosh

Edited August 16, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

_{"The spirit of the valley is a powerful symbol for yin, the universal female principle. It is eternal; it has always existed and will always exist. This principle has many names. We can call it the sacred feminine, or the Mystic Female."}

 

_{I had never agreed with this interpretation.}

The spirit of the valley is Tao. LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mystic Female which has endless reproductive power.

 

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female

1. 谷神不死

2. 是謂玄牝。

3. 玄牝之門

4. 是謂天地根。

5. 綿綿若存，

6. 用之不勤。

 

In PinYin

1. gu shen bu si,

2. shi wei xuan pin.

3. xuan pin zhi men,

4. shi wei tian di gen.

5. mian mian ruo cun,

6. yong zhi bu qin.

 

English translation:

1. The spirit of the valley never dies.

2. It is called the mysterious female.

3. The door of the mysterious female,

4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.

5. She seems existed eternally,

6. With her endless reproduction capability.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 35, Lines 7 - 11

 

Pinyin

07. dao zhi chu kou,

08. dan hu qi wu wei,

09. shi zhi bu zu jian,

10. ting zhi bu zu wen,

11. yong zhi bu zu ji.

 

35

07. 道之出口

08. 淡乎其無味。

09. 視之不足見。

10. 聽之不足聞。

11. 用之不足既。

 

Please disregard this Chapter. It was one of those phonetics that is playing tricks on you.

This "wu wei" is 無味(wu2 wei4) which means 'tasteless'.

 

We want 無為(Wu2 Wei2).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Just my two cents:

 

mysterious female was quite literally, mysterious and female (of an animal, bird, plant, but not a person which is a different symbol altogether).

 

Yin and Yang are not mentioned much at all in the Tao Te Ching, so I think "mysterious feminine" is about as close to "yin principle" as it gets. Otherwise just "feminine" would probably have been used.

[ChiDragon]

The spirit of the valley is Tao. LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mysterious Female, 玄牝, which has endless reproductive power. Thus Chapter 6 is not about any Yin principles.

 

 

IMO There was no such thing as Yin principle nor Yang principle but the Yin-Yang principle.

Yin-Yang is integrated as Oneness. Each element cannot be discussed separately. If one was spoken, then the other must follows.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, we could reasonably say that this is not merely yin without yang, because this is "the source of Heaven and Earth" while "Creative" is considered part of the yang principle.

 

However, it is interesting that the end of this chapter says:

 

用之不勤

Literally: use, operation/it/not/effort, hardworking

 

So it's not so much Creative in the yang sense, but both providing the ground and also nurturing it to completion, all without "much ado."

 

Once again we have the non-duality of yin and yang, though, as yang is often considered to provide the materials which yin acts upon and finishes.

 

So, you surely make a good point CD, but still, this chapter seems to be at least Yin-leaning for the time being, both in mentioning "mysterious female" and its creation with "no forceful effort" much like a seed blooming, or a female forming a baby during pregnancy (not to say it's easy, but it can also happen successfully without forceful effort ..).

[Marblehead]

 

Please disregard this Chapter. It was one of those phonetics that is playing tricks on you.

This "wu wei" is 無味(wu2 wei4) which means 'tasteless'.

 

We want 無為(Wu2 Wei2).

I knew there had to be something I was misssing.

 

Tomorrow I will look to see where we go next. Thanks.

[Stosh]

Well we started talking about chapter 10

I found a pinyin calculator

 

and Ch 10 has a pin in it which I think means female

and so the line is confirmed as can you play the part of a female

more or less

The calc also says that yin is synonymous with feminine

If in chapter 6 Tao altogether is the mystic female

then yin would be the feminine aspect of the total Tao which would be a female

and yang would be the masculine aspect of the mysterious female

 

so if chapter 10 asking if one can play the part of the Total tao ( mystic or dark female)

it is not asking if you can act feminine which is yin.

Its asking if you can bestow bounty and productivity.

 

It strikes me as a smooth transitional conceptry along with Harmonius E's

"So it's not so much Creative in the yang sense, but both providing the ground and also nurturing it to completion"

 

Which totalled ,,,reads something like

"Can you set the stage for bounty and nurture it."

 

Ill take it like that and just move on if its wrong.

Have a nice evening

Stosh

Edited August 16, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

May I clarify the Yin-Yang concept please....???

Yin and Yang are just attributes for something to be classified to fall under. It happens to be that female falls in the Yin attribute and male is in the Yang attribute. However, when Yin was said to be female, it was simple meant that the female is in the Yin category. It doesn't say that Yin is female nor female is Yin. It is the same goes to the male as Yang..

Edited August 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I suppose it's also as: "know the male but keep to the female"

 

Could maybe look at it like the Empty Vessel. The extremes of yin or yang revert to the other. The vessel can be filled, receiving what you give it, but when overfilled it overflows, giving back and becomes yang in a way, "blunting the sharpness" etc.

 

So it has the potential for anything, but perhaps can be described in terms of yin and yang in order to see it's way of operation?

 

-edit- just saw your post Chi Dragon, didn't mean to repeat you..

Edited August 16, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Stosh]

Ok thats fine too

but to me with Mysterious-dark female being all Tao

 

"LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mysterious Female,"

 

then yin and yang are both subsets of femaleness not the other way around.

 

Unless Tao was the stage of creation Wu?,and there was stuff in it Yo?

and he was drawing analogy between women on the stage and the stage itself.

 

Stosh

Edited August 16, 2012 by Stosh

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ok thats fine too

but to me with Mysterious-dark female being all Tao

 

"LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mysterious Female,"

 

then yin and yang are both subsets of femaleness not the other way around.

 

 

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on the statement that Mysterious Female is Dao 100%. Best I leave Chi Dragon to that...

 

 

Unless Tao was the stage of creation Wu?,and there was stuff in it Yo?

and he was drawing analogy between women on the stage and the stage itself.

 

Stosh

 

I'd be kidding myself if I thought I had an answer to that one

 

Can you elaborate a bit on "stage"?

[ChiDragon]

Ok thats fine too

but to me with Mysterious-dark female being all Tao

 

"LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mysterious Female,"

 

then yin and yang are both subsets of femaleness not the other way around.

 

 

Unless Tao was the stage of creation Wu?,and there was stuff in it Yo?

and he was drawing analogy between women on the stage and the stage itself.

 

Stosh

 

"LaoTze portrayed Tao, in Chapter 6, as a Mysterious Female,"

 

Yin and Yang are both subsets of Tao. Thus Tao may be Yin or Yang at any time. Yin and yang both are not subsets of femaleness because femaleness is being Yin at all times.

 

According to Chapter 1, Tao itself has two states of manifestation which are Wu and You. The state of Wu is when Tao was invisible and the state of You when Tao is visible.

Edited August 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

According to Chapter 1, Tao itself has two states of manifestation which are Wu and You. The state of Wu is when Tao was invisible and the state of You when Tao is visible.

I am so glad to see someone else say that. Very few actually understand this, I think.

[ChiDragon]

I am so glad to see someone else say that. Very few actually understand this, I think.

 

Yes, fortunately, I am glad that at least two persons in this forum understand it this way....

[Stosh]

I really see no correction in your correction Cd , just a narrow word association.

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on the statement that Mysterious Female is Dao 100%. Best I leave Chi Dragon to that...

 

 

 

I'd be kidding myself if I thought I had an answer to that one

 

Can you elaborate a bit on "stage"?

Well, Harmonius E , it is just my personal understanding that Tao is the invisible stage that things happen in and happen on.

It defines the rules of what can happen and those things that cant There are things which are larger scale consequences of the rules like evolution , and the bevelopment on consciousness like you and I have.

I dont care what chinese labels are put on it (except as interesting footnotes)

I am not alarmed if Cd doesnt endorse any of it , most of this equates to mythology to me

You live your Dao and thats the important thing

The figurative way the old texts were written and the characters that were used have inherent vagueness and words pop out of our minds before they are monitored , not after.

IF you do any figurative writing on the side it should become apparrent that the only "Authentic" reading and understanding is by the authour at the time he was writing it .

You go back an hour later and the significances have shifted.

Yes at some point you put a stamp on it and call it finished and you say its your own.

But the reality is that once the reader gets his hands on it things have just left your control entirely.

Thats significant here in that there is a sort of circular re-emergence of the same sort of conceptry at different levels Like the "microverse recapitulating the macroverse"

Some folks like the idea that they are boggled ,

that the world is mysical and beyond understanding ( and to a degree it is)

and other folks prefer to boil things down to a point where they make sense

(and therefore practical conclusions can ensue)

I am a "boiler".

 

I can go on but I dont want to belabor the point, if its boring.

Stosh

Edited August 17, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

Just to inject my understandings as well as my possible misunderstandings, I look at this Yin/Yang in a more practicle way (to my mind).

 

Yin and Yang are to two opposing polarities of Chi. Chi is the energy. Yang is the positive, the outflow of energy, and Yin is the negative, the return of energy. Without both there would be no energy flow. Both are equally important.

 

When we return to the 'source' we are said to be in the state of Yin, the returning to the state of rest.

[Stosh]

Mh

That fits nice with the concept of entropy , by the way.

so its quite practical in practice too if you embrace the

analogy.

 

 

Stosh

 

( PS Tao iteslf is never visible just as entropy is not

one can see the effects of the wind but not the wind itself)

Hence the song

"All we are is -dust in the wind"

Edited August 17, 2012 by Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Hi All,

 

Just to inject my understandings as well as my possible misunderstandings, I look at this Yin/Yang in a more practicle way (to my mind).

 

Yin and Yang are to two opposing polarities of Chi. Chi is the energy. Yang is the positive, the outflow of energy, and Yin is the negative, the return of energy. Without both there would be no energy flow. Both are equally important.

 

When we return to the 'source' we are said to be in the state of Yin, the returning to the state of rest.

 

To interject a possibility .... there be an energy flow, the notion of a point being positive or negative and they

creating the flow of energy is an illusion/delusion... the flow of energy exists, the entropy, and always flows in a given direction... The Living preserve their order by taking from their surroundings 'nutrients', rearranging them and returning to their surroundings the stuff in a different form, with an extra amount of 'enriched' entropy. That explains the comment John said about reality working by adding to it... BTW the energy flow of the original singularity creates an ever expanding universe of stuff ...

 

Hey thanks... I find this thread quite helpful... keep it going...

[Marblehead]

Hey thanks... I find this thread quite helpful... keep it going...

Yeah, we got way off topic but it really is a great discussion, isn't it?

[Stosh]

To interject a possibility .... there be an energy flow, the notion of a point being positive or negative and they

creating the flow of energy is an illusion/delusion... the flow of energy exists, the entropy, and always flows in a given direction... The Living preserve their order by taking from their surroundings 'nutrients', rearranging them and returning to their surroundings the stuff in a different form, with an extra amount of 'enriched' entropy. That explains the comment John said about reality working by adding to it... BTW the energy flow of the original singularity creates an ever expanding universe of stuff ...

 

Hey thanks... I find this thread quite helpful... keep it going...

 

That sounds like potential for agreement which is incomplete

Thats good , I can do some agreeing too

Your description of entropy is spot on

What energy is , is still enigmatic to science

This view held by Mh seems solidly rooted as well.

 

Hi All,

 

Just to inject my understandings as well as my possible misunderstandings, I look at this Yin/Yang in a more practicle way (to my mind).

 

Yin and Yang are to two opposing polarities of Chi. Chi is the energy. Yang is the positive, the outflow of energy, and Yin is the negative, the return of energy. Without both there would be no energy flow. Both are equally important.

 

When we return to the 'source' we are said to be in the state of Yin, the returning to the state of rest.

 

If there was a way to draw Cd into agreement

the event would be quite noteworthy

Have a nice weekend guys

just keep thinking dust in the wind

maybe humm it

Stosh

Edited August 17, 2012 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 

Have a nice weekend guys

just keep thinking dust in the wind

maybe humm it

Stosh

You have a great weekend as well.

 

"Dust in the wind." Is that what's left after the stuff hit the fan?

[et-thoughts]

That sounds like potential for agreement which is incomplete

Thats good , I can do some agreeing too

Your description of entropy is spot on

What energy is , is still enigmatic to science

This view held by Mh seems solidly rooted as well.

 

 

 

If there was a way to draw Cd into agreement

the event would be quite noteworthy

Have a nice weekend guys

just keep thinking dust in the wind

maybe humm it

Stosh

 

Stosh

 

The initial thought I had was that a possibility is complete regardless of the possibility remaining as just that a possibility...

I thought that potential for equated to a possibility... Then I had a different thought, somewhat on the lines of : 'the validity of the statement'... which incidentally can denote any level of validity (say from nil, passing through incomplete, all the way to complete ) :-) With that in mind disagreements fall within the agreements class (nil agreement being full disagreement and nil disagreement being full agreement)...

 

Why do you claim that "potential for agreement" is incomplete rather than complete? This sort of reminds me of an interchange which also sought to explore 'what be the case of'. After much debate I came to the surprising realization that 'we thought that we disagreed when we actually agreed almost 100%". It was sort of funny because in that interchange we both agreed that one was right and one was wrong ... we even agreed that the statement "I am the one right and you be the one wrong" was 100% valid. We even agreed that 'I meant I' and 'you meant you'. From there I walked away with the insight that when I am told that I am wrong by someone who is wrong its just the natural thing... (wow something just clicked in me) When someone who is wrong tells me that I am right its indeterminate wether its because they are recognizing the truth I expressed or because what I expressed actually is wrong...

 

BTW you said "If there was a way to (x) the event would be quite noteworthy"

I think there be a way to (x) ... what would be really noteworthy would be to discover the way to (x) :-)

 

dust in the wind, with a conscience and mind and feelings and a bit more, that knows, lives, experiences, transcends and more. Dust that goes everywhere, including where there be no wind at all. In a way energy is like the wind that moves particles about... though living light particles destined to be more than just particles or waves...

 

you each and all have a wonderfull weekend

[ChiDragon]

Marblehead.....

 

Here are the rest of the chapters have "Wu Wei" in them:

Chapters: 37, 38, 43, 48, 57, 63, and 64 .

[Marblehead]

Marblehead.....

 

Here are the rest of the chapters have "Wu Wei" in them:

Chapters: 37, 38, 43, 48, 57, 63, and 64 .

Thanks for the poke. I have been being lazy about this while concentrating on another project of mine. I hope to get to the next sometime later today.