Consciousness is Not Eternal

[C T]

At the level where i can see, life mimics consciousness... after life, that which is called 'death' would then appear to mimic some other state. I used this term 'mimic' because there appears to be a mystical state of union where these two grand illusions can be seen through, and many get glimpses of this state from time to time, yet its wise to not 'chase' this as if its THE ultimate finale... there is no finale, it appears, because its all simply a flux of potentiality, seemingly. Unfortunately, lifelong contemplations will still not yield any concrete answers, so the best thing is to go easy on the mind, and dwell on more soothing reflections. Many mystics have died trying to unravel this subject with much frustrating results, so why should anyone attempt to follow this route is beyond reason.

[xabir2005]

Well then you ARE one of the 'many'.

You didn't catch what I said.

[Marblehead]

You didn't catch what I said.

I caught what you said. And I wanted to agree with you but all I could do at that thought was laugh.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[gatito]

That's not true. You have the light as your constant, faithful companion. The illumination of day-to-day life is the greatest and most powerful tool.

 

Yes.

 

Consciousness is always here as the only reality.

[gatito]

[Diamond Spectrum]

I come and go me

I'm gone can you see me here?

go me go me go

I have often wished

I had time to cultivate modesty...

but I am too busy thinking about myself.

[Simple_Jack]

Actually (IME) it's seen that there isn't even a single thought.

 

Furthermore, it's an interesting story that you weave but it's pretty complex and it contains many different objects. It's also too laborious to try to follow your line of reasoning when we can't agree on simple definitions (e.g. you appear to use Consciousness synonymously with mind).

Actually (IME) it's seen that there isn't even a single thought.

Notice how he says "Even the non-conceptual pure sense of beingness, consciousness and presence prior to senses or concepts, once reified into a background Self, that too is discovered to be a non-conceptual thought manifestation.

 

This is talking about a (very) subtle reification that happens even on the non-conceptual subconscious level. These are the '[karmic] propensities that bond;' these operate even in deep meditative absorption, which can lead to reification of these experiences (for instance, one of the formless absorptions as absolute.)

 

Furthermore, it's an interesting story that you weave but it's pretty complex and it contains many different objects. It's also too laborious to try to follow your line of reasoning when we can't agree on simple definitions (e.g. you appear to use Consciousness synonymously with mind).

 

These links, may or may not be able to help you, understand what "Mind" means in Buddhism.

 

My link

Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions

Posted by: An Eternal Now

 

The following blog entry is from a post made in my forum a few years ago time ago. It is about seeing awareness as manifestation instead of a mirror reflecting, and seeing the inseparability of awareness and conditions. This is also related to a previous blog entry Dependent Arising of Consciousness which contains a related text by Arya Nagarjuna.

 

---------------

 

Passerby/Thusness saw some inadequateness in one of the Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma translations, and translated himself a certain passage and commented on my forum:

 

Original Chinese text from Bodhidharma's Bloodstream Sermon (血脉论): 若智慧明了，此心号名法性，亦名解脱。生死不拘，一切法拘它不得，是名大自在王如来；亦名不思议，亦名圣体，亦名长生不死，亦名大仙。名虽不同，体即是一。圣人种种分别，皆不离自心。心量广大，应用无穷，应眼见色，应耳闻声，应鼻嗅香，应舌知味，乃至施为运动，皆是自心。

 

(I myself translated certain parts to fill in the gap): With the illumination of wisdom (prajna), mind is known as Dharma Nature, mind is known as Liberation. Neither life nor death can restrain this mind, no dharmas (phenomenon) can. It’s also called the King of Great Freedom Tathagata, the Incomprehensible, the Holy Essence, the Immortality, the Great Immortal. Its names vary but its essence is one. Sages vary, but none are separate from his own mind. The mind’s capacity is limitless, and its conditional functions are inexhaustible. With the condition of eyes, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.

 

Comments by Passerby/Thusness:

 

若智慧明了，此心号名法性，亦名解脱。

 

A better way to translate this should be:

 

With the illumination of wisdom (prajna), mind is known as Dharma Nature, mind is known as Liberation.

 

Comments: It is important to know that mind is itself liberation. That is why knowing the nature of our mind is the way of liberation. If Liberation is not experienced, then the clarity is still not there. There is no true understanding of what mind is.

 

Liberation is this Pristine Awareness itself in its natural state. That is why understanding this Pristine Awareness is the direct path towards liberation. If we cannot see that the 5 aggregates are themselves our Buddha Nature, then we will not understand there is nothing to shunt from the transience. Thought liberates, sound liberates, tastes liberates. The transience liberates. If we do not see that, then we are taking a gradual path. It is also not advisable to speak too much about spontaneous arising or self liberation. It can be quite misleading.

 

----------------

 

应眼见色，应耳闻声，应鼻嗅香，应舌知味，乃至施为运动，皆是自心。

 

A better way to translate should be:

 

With the condition of the eye, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.

 

Thusness/Passerby's comments:

 

Here there are 2 important points to take note. First is that Buddha Nature is the transience. Second it is more of '应'. Means with the condition of the eye, forms arise. With ears, sound arises.

 

Awareness is not like a mirror reflecting but rather a manifestation. Luminosity is an arising luminous manifestation rather than a mirror reflecting. The center here is being replaced with Dependent Origination, the experience however is non-dual.

 

One must learn how to see Appearances as Awareness and all others as conditions. Example, sound is awareness. The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears...are conditions. One should learn to see in this way. All problems arise because we cannot experience Awareness this way.

 

Conventionally we experience in the form of subject and object interaction taking place in a space-time continuum. This is just an assumption. Experientially it is not so. One should learn to experience awareness as the manifestation. There is no subject, there is only and always manifestation, all else are conditions of arising. All these are just provisional explanations for one to understand.

 

Further comments:

 

What's seen is Awareness. What's heard is Awareness. All experiences are non-dual in nature. However this non-dual luminosity cannot be understood apart from the ‘causes and conditions’ of arising. Therefore do not see ‘yin’ as Awareness interacting with external conditions. If you see it as so, then it still falls in the category of mirror-reflecting. Rather see it as an instantaneous manifestation where nothing excluded. As if the universe is giving its very best for this moment to arise. A moment is complete and non-dual. Vividly manifest and thoroughly gone leaving no traces.

 

 

Other comments:

 

Phrase like “everything arises from Emptiness and subsides back to Emptiness” is equally misleading. By doing so, we have made ‘Emptiness’ into a metaphysical essence; similarly not to make the same mistake for “causes and conditions”, not to objectify it into a metaphysical essence. All are provisional terms to point to our insubstantial, essence-less and interdependent nature.

 

My link

THE EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES

 

I will name the eight consciousnesses for people who don't know them. The first five are the eye consciousness, ear consciousness, tongue, nose and body consciousness. These five consciousnesses function through the organs to perceive the five external objects of sense. In themselves, these five are very partial and limited. The eye consciousness is only for form. It cannot taste or hear sounds or smell. Similarly, the ear is only for sound, not for seeing, tasting and so forth. Now how can these scattered consciousnesses be brought together into one united state? That is the function of the sixth consciousness which is like the driver or a judge who makes decisions. It receives and organizes the input of the five external consciousnesses and gives meaning to our experience. The sixth combines and integrates the sense consciousnesses into one. It is known as mind consciousness.

 

The first five consciousnesses are very immediate. They have no continuity. They only refer to the present. They cannot sense the past or the future. They only communicate directly with the present. They are very exclusive and one-sided. The sixth consciousness not only unites these five, it can also refer to the events and activities of the past and future. It is actually structuring our sense of time.

 

A closer look reveals that the mind has two sides. One, which we have called the sixth consciousness, is dealing with the business of the past, present and future; making decisions based on the information received from the first five consciousnesses. It is very neutral and rational. There is another side to this mind, the seventh consciousness, which is basically very emotional and gives rise to ego-clinging. On the basis of ego-clinging, ignorance, anger, attachment, jealousy, pride and doubt develop. All this arises in that singular aggregate we call the mind.

 

All seven of these minds are based upon an eighth consciousness which is known a 'kun-gzhi' in Tibetan, the ground of mind. It is sometimes translated as 'subconscious storehouse'. In Sanskrit, it is called 'alaya'. The nature of the eighth consciousness is neither positive nor negative; it is neutral. Alaya retains every basic habit-pattern of individuals. Everything is stored there; our good karma, bad karma, and neutral karma. All kinds of habits and whatever actions we perform during our lifetimes are registered there. This is why it is known as a 'storehouse'. Alaya is a consciousness, but it is very subtle.

 

My link

Aālayavijñāna

 

The ālaya-vijñāna forms the "base-consciousness" (mūla-vijñāna) or "causal consciousness". According to the traditional interpretation, the other seven consciousnesses are "evolving" or "transforming" consciousnesses originating in this base-consciousness.

 

The store-house consciousness accumulates all potential energy for the mental (nama) and physical (rupa) manifestation of one's existence (namarupa). It is the storehouse-consciousness which induces transmigration or rebirth, causing the origination of a new existence.

 

To further clarify the last two, since usually these aren't readily understood:

 

My link

Defiled mental consciousness

 

The defiled mental consciousness or emotional consciousness (Skt. kliṣṭamanas; Tib. ཉོན་ཡིད་, nyön yi; Wyl. nyon yid) is the seventh of the eight consciousnesses. It is focused inwards upon the ground of all, or alaya, mistaking it for a substantial self, with the result that all experience is subsequently divided into wanted and unwanted. It is always present, underlying all ordinary mental states, whether virtuous, non-virtuous or neutral, and only ceases when the noble path is actualized, during the absorption of cessation or at the state of buddhahood.

 

Description

 

Thrangu Rinpoche explains:

 

The seventh consciousness refers to the most basic level of mental afflictions, or klesha. It refers not to the coarse kleshas, but to the root of the kleshas. Specifically, the afflicted consciousness is the most subtle level of fixation on a self. [...] It is unfluctuatingly present even when one is asleep. When sometimes you have a sense of self, and you think “I”, that is an operation not of the seventh consciousness but of the sixth. [...] Although it is not itself directly observable, the afflicted consciousness is the basis for all coarse fixation on a self and therefore for all coarse kleshas.[1]

 

My link

All-ground consciousness

 

The all-ground consciousness (Skt. ālayavijñāna; Tib. ཀུན་གཞི་རྣམ་པར་ཤེས་པ་, kun shyi nampar shépa; Wyl. kun gzhi rnam par shes pa) is the eighth of the eight consciousnesses posited by the Chittamatra and Svatantrika-Madhyamika schools. In these systems, there are three mental consciousnesses, of which two are active (the sixth and seventh) and one is inactive (the eighth). It is a subtle, neutral level of consciousness, in which traces of past actions are stored as 'seeds' ready to ripen into future experience.

 

Definition

 

Mipham Rinpoche explained:

 

The state of consciousness that is mere clarity and knowing, which does not veer off into an active sense cognition, and which is the support of habitual tendencies, is called the alayavijnana, the consciousness that is the universal ground (ཀུན་གཞི་རྣམ་ཤེས་, kun gzhi rnam shes).[1]

 

Description

 

The alaya or all-ground consciousness is neutral, neither positive nor negative.

It is not as coarse as the other seven forms of consciousness.

 

Thrangu Rinpoche explains:

 

The eighth consciousness [...] is the basis or ground for the arising of all other types of consciousness. It is that fundamental clarity of consciousness, or cognitive lucidity, that has been there from the beginning. As the capacity for conscious experience, it is the ground for the arising of eye consciousness, ear consciousness, etc. Like the seventh, it is constantly present, constantly operating, and it persists until the attainment of final awakening.[2]

 

Subdivisions

 

The all-ground consciousness is divided into a 'seed aspect' and a 'maturation aspect'.

 

Care must be taken to not think of the alaya in terms of something that is substantial, absolute or unchanging. In the Sakya sect of Tibetan Buddhism, it is described as the indivisibility of luminosity and emptiness. In other words: It is the totality of our sensate experience that is continually transforming due to cause and effect.

[Christian]

The hypothesis of this thread is that consciousness is not eternal.

 

Consciousness comes and goes like everything else, for example, during periods of deep sleep, certain meditative states, or when one is given anesthesia.

 

Note, this is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact.

 

I would like to hear opposing views based on logic, experience, or other understanding.

 

"Our life has a boundary but there is no boundary to knowledge.

To use what has a boundary to pursue what is limitless is dangerous;

with this knowledge, if we still go after knowledge, we will run into trouble."

 

-Chuang Tzu

[gatito]

Notice how he says "Even the non-conceptual pure sense of beingness, consciousness and presence prior to senses or concepts, once reified into a background Self, that too is discovered to be a non-conceptual thought manifestation.

 

This is talking about a (very) subtle reification that happens even on the non-conceptual subconscious level. These are the '[karmic] propensities that bond;' these operate even in deep meditative absorption, which can lead to reification of these experiences (for instance, one of the formless absorptions as absolute.)

 

These links, may or may not be able to help you, understand what "Mind" means in Buddhism.

 

To further clarify the last two, since usually these aren't readily understood:

 

Care must be taken to not think of the alaya in terms of something that is substantial, absolute or unchanging. In the Sakya sect of Tibetan Buddhism, it is described as the indivisibility of luminosity and emptiness. In other words: It is the totality of our sensate experience that is continually transforming due to cause and effect.

 

I appreciate the fact that you have gone to this trouble but what I was trying to indicate was that I view things somewhat differently.

 

Thank you again for your kindness though; it is appreciated.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Gatito