Christian

Is being enlightened the same as being awake? It is just that I use those terms differently. I feel being awake can lead to enlightenment. Drinking coffee effects the mind (promotes glutamate release by blocking the adienosine receptor) so it is hard for me to be "awake" after I drink coffee.

No doubt a sage could do harmful things to the physical body without concern. But would they? I have a feeling that many people use this idea as a way to do what their conditioning forces them to do while claiming they are free of their conditioning. And it give bad teachers a way to get people to follow them. And a thought about "everything in moderation..."; everything is a lot of things. Maybe one needs to moderate that as well

Most people here are very far away from the Tao. Please delete my account.

sorry, duplicate post.

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Bad to who?

OK. Let's play. I do not want to communicate with you. I have absolutely nothing to offer you. You do not need any help, the Tao will make sure you return.

Concepts embiggen limited perceptions. Pardon dry humor re: I thought this was a Taoist forum?, I was merely pushing a concept to make my point, which it did, but not how I thought. If this finger masterbation works for you, who says it will work for me? If it works for a hundred, maybe we should look at why so many need to spin their fingers in the first place? So, what is there to ponder if there is nothing to be healed? And; Do I really need to define words? If so, please define define and we can get our words all perfectly agreed upon before we let them all go.

Ha! I understand, but then again, not the same when it comes from a commander!

Meditate on the silliness of your thoughts. Is not creation also destruction? To make a wooden chair I need to cut down a tree, to make a car I need to tear at the heart of the earth. Creation, destruction, no different, why bother with either? Ignore both, save your energy, live a long life.

Me too, like a deer, in the grass.

Maybe some more... Horses, when living in the open country, eat the grass, and drink water; when pleased, they intertwine their necks and rub one another; when enraged, they turn back to back and kick one another;- this is all that they know to do. But if we put the yoke on their necks, with the moonlike frontlet displayed on all their foreheads, then they know to look slily askance, to curve their necks, to rush viciously, trying to get the bit out of their mouths, and to filch the reins (from their driver); this knowledge of the horse and its ability thus to act the part of a thief is the crime of Po-lâo. In the time of (the Ti) Ho-hsü, the people occupied their dwellings without knowing what they were doing, and walked out without knowing where they were going. They filled their mouths with food and were glad; they slapped their stomachs to express their satisfaction. This was all the ability which they possessed. But when the sagely men appeared, with their bendings and stoppings in ceremonies and music to adjust the persons of all, and hanging up their benevolence and righteousness to excite the endeavours of all to reach them, in order to comfort their minds, then the people began to stump and limp about in their love of knowledge, and strove with one another in their pursuit of gain, so that there was no stopping them:- this was the error of those sagely men.

Horse's Hooves by Chuang Tzu Horses can with their hoofs tread on the hoarfrost and snow, and with their hair withstand the wind and cold; they feed on the grass and drink water; they prance with their legs and leap:- this is the true nature of horses. Though there were made for them grand towers and large dormitories, they would prefer not to use them. But when Po-lâo (arose and) said, "I know well how to manage horses," (men proceeded) to singe and mark them, to clip their hair, to pare their hoofs, to halter their heads, to bridle them and hobble them, and to confine them in stables and corrals. (When subjected to this treatment), two or three in every ten of them died. (Men proceeded further) to subject them to hunger and thirst, to gallop them and race them, and to make them go together in regular order. In front were the evils of the bit and ornamented breastbands, and behind were the terrors of the whip and switch. (When so treated), more than half of them died. ... Do you get why I posted this story?