Old neigong manual

[YMWong]

What do you think of this...???

The External practice corresponds to the saying about the tendons, bones and skin. However, the part on "neigong" contradicts of what you said it "does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy."

 

CD, the passage you copy-and-paste from the web here quotes the "Modern Chinese Dictionary" which - I hope you will agree with that - is not the perfect reference for what we are discussing about

 

Best

 

YM

[ChiDragon]

CD, the passage you copy-and-paste from the web here quotes the "Modern Chinese Dictionary" which - I hope you will agree with that - is not the perfect reference for what we are discussing about

 

Best

 

YM

 

I guess we just have to ignore it if it makes that much difference between the ancient and modern opinions. However, there were no proofs either way.

 

But logically, if the external practice was for the tendons, bones and skins, that would lead one to think that internal would have something to do with the body parts inside. I guess I have to fanatically accept whatever was given.

Edited July 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[YMWong]

But logically, if the external practice was for the tendons, bones and skins, that would lead one to think that internal would have something to do with the body parts inside. I guess I have to fanatically accept whatever was given.

 

Guesswork is totally useless with these subjects, and can become extremely dangerous if taken practically.

 

You don't need to believe what I say, but let me suggest that you don't simply try to understand things "logically" without the guidance of a good teacher as that usually takes people astray.

 

We all have the (bad) tendency to think we are clever enough to understand things on our own, but we forget that these are Sciences that have taken GENERATIONS of people to develop and there is NO WAY no matter how smart you are that you can match that in a single lifetime.

 

Best

 

YM

Edited July 3, 2012 by YMWong

[steve]

FWIW, here is another perspective on Qi which mentions the different characters used and dismisses the earlier character as nothing more significant than a reflection of the time period during which it was used.

Not trying to say any one perspective is right or wrong, just different ideas and opinions to consider.

http://www.buqi.net/en/articles/chi.htm

 

Here is the excerpt concerning the two characters -

 

"The character for qi in Lishu

 

Lishu

Lishu was an ancient style of calligraphy, the official script used in the Han Dynasty (206 BC- 220 AD). The qi character in Lishu evolved from another character which combined the symbol for vapour and the symbol for fire, as was the case with the qi character on the Xingqi Ming.

Taoist books often use this Chinese character for qi because Taoism began in the Han Dynasty when the Lishu way of writing was used. In Taoism qi refers to 'the internal energy of the body'. Therefore nowadays people think that this qi character specifically refers to internal energy, but this is not correct as in Lishu script qi does not have this specific meaning."

[ChiDragon]

Guesswork is totally useless with these subjects, and can become extremely dangerous if taken practically.

 

You don't need to believe what I say, but let me suggest that you don't simply try to understand things "logically" without the guidance of a good teacher as that usually takes people astray.

 

We all have the (bad) tendency to think we are clever enough to understand things on our own, but we forget that these are Sciences that have taken GENERATIONS of people to develop and there is NO WAY no matter how smart you are that you can match that in a single lifetime.

 

Best

 

YM

 

Ref: 黃帝內經--壽夭剛柔

 

《壽夭剛柔》

 

 

壽夭剛柔: 黃帝問於少師曰：余聞人之生也，有剛有柔，有弱有強，有短有長，有陰有陽，願聞其方。

壽夭剛柔: 少師答曰：陰中有陰，陽中有陽，審知陰陽，刺之有方。得病所始，刺之有理。謹度病端，與時相應。內合於五藏六府，外合於筋骨皮膚。是故內有陰陽，外亦有陰陽。在內者，五藏為陰，六府為陽，在外者，筋骨為陰，皮膚為陽。故曰，病在陰之陰者，刺陰之滎俞， 病在陽之陽者，刺陽之合，病在陽之陰者，刺陰之經，病在陰之陽者，刺絡脈。故曰，病在陽者名曰風，病在陰者名曰痺，陰陽俱病名曰風痺。病有形而不痛者，陽 之類也；無形而痛者，陰之類也。無形而痛者，其陽完而陰傷之也。急治其陰，無攻其陽。有形而不痛者，其陰完而陽傷之也。急治其陽，無攻其陰。陰陽俱動，乍 有形，乍無形，加以煩心，命曰陰勝其陽。此謂不表不裏，其形不久。

 

Please note the implication of the definition of internal(內) and external(外) in the Huang De Nei Ching(黃帝內經).

 

1. 內合於五藏六府(internal organs)

2. 外合於筋骨皮膚(tendon, bone, and skin)

Edited July 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[YMWong]

Please note the implication of the definition of internal(內) and external(外) in the Huang De Nei Ching(黃帝內經).

 

1. 內合於五藏六府(internal organs)

2. 外合於筋骨皮膚(tendon, bone, and skin)

 

CD, I am not sure if you are trying to convince me of something I already know as a practical fact, by searching on the web definitions that fit the paradigm that you have created with your guesswork, but I can assure you that you can find "proof" of any possible scenario you may draw.

 

"Internal" and "external" simply mean in-and-out, than when you apply that definition to the different situation you get the specific meaning.

 

Anyway, good luck with your quest

 

Best

 

YM

[YMWong]

How many stories are there about immortals, or spirit guides, that reached out to transmit teachings?

 

Most of those stories are true, but they have been passed down to the general public in a novel-like way so - while they have a value - they are not complete.

 

In fact, immortals will transmit teachings only to those already in their own lineage.

Let's say that one follows a certain teacher and he is, thru the teacher, introduced to that specific line of transmission up to the founder. Only once this is done, and he is accepted by the chain of masters before him, can he work hard on himself practicing the teachings of that lineage and MAY later be visited by the immortals (of that specific lineage) for further guidance.

Failing to be formally introduced to the line of transmission this help from the Sky is basically impossible, unless one is for instance a huge hero who has saved the lives of million people than maybe the immortals may notice him.

 

It is basically the same in "normal life": one who works for Apple, at any level, and therefore is introduced to the "chain of comman" of the company may be noticed by his superiors and has the opportuny to be given a better job, a better position, higher training.

Another guy who works for a factory in India may hardly be noticed by Steve Jobs, no?

 

YM

Edited July 4, 2012 by YMWong

[宁]

Reminds me of something TaoMeow said here: that everything that happens on one's path is useful. I sometimes refer to past practices as 'preliminary practices,' but my practices today, however more 'powerful' than yesterday, may be looked at very differently by me in a few year's time. Perhaps the accumulated experiences play into this yuanfen. The person/place/time with accumulated histories all have to line up.

 

Openness, curiosity, the discovery process, enhancing one's insight...cultivating these qualities can assist in locating authentic teachings. How many stories are there about immortals, or spirit guides, that reached out to transmit teachings? Everything we need to know is accessible in the holouniverse. Much of our practice could simply be directed to being able to shift to the right frequency to obtain those particular bits of information that resonate with us. Perhaps you are doing this already.

 

Apologies for derailing the thread.

 

perhaps, i sometimes think in those terms for encouragement, but alas, i know that's the only use of it, confort. to me this part of life is very important, and it always was, since childhood.. it's an intrinsic part of who i am, and it's only natural that i should look for the best. i don't quite feel it as an option, have it or not, because it was always with me. the only option is, how far will i go for it.

 

i'm sure YM's answers may not be too romantic and maybe not as generous in options as your average spiritual philosophy, but i feel they offer a realistic, and therefore, helpful perspective. cutting away the unreal can have the enormous benefit of letting us see our real options, this in turn saves time, time is something we barely have, as humans.

 

E,

[YMWong]

i'm sure YM's answers may not be too romantic and maybe not as generous in options as your average spiritual philosophy, but i feel they offer a realistic, and therefore, helpful perspective. cutting away the unreal can have the enormous benefit of letting us see our real options, this in turn saves time, time is something we barely have, as humans.

 

Yes, it is important to realize the difference between the popular approach to Daoism and the actual real thing.

 

Since early times, Daoism has been spread to the masses through novels and so-called "morality books" 善書. These works are not meant for the actual pratictioner but they are only addressed to the masses, in an effort to spread morality in the population, to reward their good deeds and behaviour with positive hope.

They can be an introduction in that many people in Chinese history got started on their path by reading these works, but they really don't convey reality of Daoist practice and transmission.

 

It is very much like the story of Newton discovering gravity while being hit by a fallen apple. Even if the story was true, he had tons and tons of real knowledge acquired from proper studies at the time and that causality only generated an idea that was in fact borne out of formal studies.

 

If we want to become another genius we must therefore find a proper academic institution and follow their curriculum studying hard for many, many years instead of just sitting under a tree waiting for magic to happen

 

YM

Edited July 4, 2012 by YMWong

[ChiDragon]

CD, I am not sure if you are trying to convince me of something I already know as a practical fact, by searching on the web definitions that fit the paradigm that you have created with your guesswork, but I can assure you that you can find "proof" of any possible scenario you may draw.

 

"Internal" and "external" simply mean in-and-out, than when you apply that definition to the different situation you get the specific meaning.

 

Anyway, good luck with your quest

 

Best

 

YM

 

I felt that 故步自封 was coming. This is as far as we can go from here.

 

Best to you too.....

Edited July 4, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mla7]

YM Wong,

 

 

In your opinion, what are the possibilities of a non Chinese person being successful with these practices?

 

 

Do you think essential aspects of these practices can be removed from their original cultural matrix and "transplanted" into a foreign (modern, western) culture?

 

mike

[YMWong]

In your opinion, what are the possibilities of a non Chinese person being successful with these practices?

 

The exact same possibilities a Chinese has

 

Do you think essential aspects of these practices can be removed from their original cultural matrix and "transplanted" into a foreign (modern, western) culture?

 

Yes of course, as long as the basic principles are not removed.

These are extremely "practical" treasures and, while their theoretical background is vast and important, they can in fact be learned successfully as long as hands on transmission happens, no matter where

 

YM

[mla7]

YM, thanks for your reply, I must admit, you said the exact opposite of what I expected!

 

If you don't mind, could you describe a little bit what you mean by a "transmission"?

 

I expect that the term refers to something more than having a master on hand to offer corrections and answer questions, but other than that I am a little vague on what the actual meaning is...

 

mike

[YMWong]

If you don't mind, could you describe a little bit what you mean by a "transmission"?

 

I expect that the term refers to something more than having a master on hand to offer corrections and answer questions, but other than that I am a little vague on what the actual meaning is...

 

Hello Mike,

 

in general terms transmission simply means what you mention i.e. been accepted by a (real) master who truly agrees to teach.

This "acceptance" may take different forms and specific "procedures" depending on the lineage rules and the kind of material passed down, but all in all it simply means finding a master and receiving guidance from him/her.

 

YM

[mla7]

cool,

 

thanks for your response.

 

mike

[宁]

Yes, it is important to realize the difference between the popular approach to Daoism and the actual real thing.

 

About that...

There is a concept that's been bugging me for years, related to the practice of neigong and qigong, namely the notion of 'chi field'. It reffers to a kind of vibration field that is generated by a group of practitioners that do the practice together. Supposedly, the master can 'tune' the 'field' to help the practitioners, boost the 'signal' of the practice, which contains the 'transmission'.

Is this something that you, during your studies and experiences, have fond to be part of the 'real thing Daoism', or is it just a 'popular approach'? What is it exactly?

 

Thanks!

 

E

[YMWong]

There is a concept that's been bugging me for years, related to the practice of neigong and qigong, namely the notion of 'chi field'. It reffers to a kind of vibration field that is generated by a group of practitioners that do the practice together. Supposedly, the master can 'tune' the 'field' to help the practitioners, boost the 'signal' of the practice, which contains the 'transmission'.

Is this something that you, during your studies and experiences, have fond to be part of the 'real thing Daoism', or is it just a 'popular approach'? What is it exactly?

 

Each one of us is a microcosm and we are connected to the outside (the macrocosm) and to each other at a gross level through our senses.

We are also connected at a finer level through what you call "vibration", what common people refer to as "feelings" and what the Chinese call (again) "qi".

 

Like a mobile phone that can be connected to a far-away antenna signal when the right frequency is found, we can also connect to each other or to "the outside" in a similar way.

To connect and send/receive data you need an advanced device (a transmitter or whatever it is). Within our body we need to build such qualities which have long been lost.

 

So a real master can and sometimes DO connects with his students in various ways, to check with their practice or to help with the same.

This connection can take various 'forms' which may include the kind of transmission you talk about, but again this may happen or not depending on the situations so its presence (or absence) is not necessarily a sign we are talking about "the real thing"

 

YM