Translating "Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir" (金丹问答)

[dawei]

[Rainy_Day]

[ChiDragon]

[ChiDragon]

[ChiDragon]

　　问曰：“神水华池，何也？”

 

　　答曰：“李荃云：‘还丹之要，在于神水华池。’紫华曰：‘以铅入汞，名曰神水，以汞投铅，名曰华池。’海蟾曰：‘从来神水出高源。’紫清曰：‘华池正在气海内。’”

 

Question: What do "the spirituous water" and "the splendid pool" mean?

 

Answer: Li Quan said, "The key to returning the elixir is at the spirituous water and the splendid pool." The Master of Purple Splendour said, "to enter mercury using lead is called 'spirituous water'; to throw mercury into lead is called 'splendid pool'." Hai Chan said, "The spirituous water has always come from a high spring." The Master of Purple Clarity said, "The splendid pool is right in the sea of qi."

 

*According to zdic, the splendid pool is the place below the tongue inside the mouth. Does this conflict with the explanation given (e.g. right in the sea of qi)?

 

Answered:

"Li Quan said: 'the significance of returning the elixir, it's based upon the Sacred Water in the Splendid Pool.'

The Taoist priest 紫华 said: 'Letting the Lead enter the Mercury was called the Sacred Water, letting the Mercury dive toss into the Lead was called the Splendid Pool.

Taoist priest 海蟾 said: 'It was known that the sacred water comes from the higher source.'

Taoist priest 紫清 said: 'The Splendid Pool is at the 气海(Chi Hai).'"

 

 

Note: 气海(chi hai) is an acupuncture point in the "lower dan tian" below the navel .

 

 

 

Please note that the contents in this thread are defining all the definitions of the Taoist terms. Once ever in doubt, it's good to return here for the true definitions.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[steve]

金液 = golden liquid = valuable water = precious saliva = innate natures path

 

 

I believe that you're correct in that the "golden liquid" refers to saliva. I found an explanation on Baidu, but I'm not fully convinced of it as yet.

 

 

If one understands the five elements: 金(metal), 木(wood), 水(water), 火(fire), and 土(earth), then the conclusion would not be saliva.

 

Dawei is correct. Golden elixir is the name given to the saliva that collects during Daoist meditation.

It is a part of the alchemical process by which Jing is converted to Qi.

It is encouraged through proper placement of the tongue and is considered very precious and pure, hence the name "golden elixir."

 

Rainy_Day - many thanks on your work here. Your translations are quite good and it is wonderful to read some of this and compare it with my practice.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, Steve...

[ChiDragon]

　　问曰：“何谓子午？”

 

　　答曰：“子午，乃天地之中也。在天为曰月，在人为心肾，在时为子午，在卦为坎离，在方为南北。”

 

Question: What are zi(子) and wu(午)?*

 

Answer: Zi(子) and wu(午) are the center-points of Heaven and Earth. In the sky, they are the sun and the moon. In a human, they are the hearts and the kidneys. With respect to time, they are zi and wu. With respect to trigrams, they are kan(坎) and li(離). With respect to directions, they are the South and the North.

 

*The first and seventh unit of the terrestrial branches, respectively.

 

 

This diagram is drawn upside down with respect to the Yi Jing convention. The Taoist principles are all related to the later version Ba Gua as know as the 后天八卦(Later Heaven Ba Gua).

Edited January 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

With respect to time, they are zi and wu.

子 = Zi = midnight (11pm-1am)

午 = Wu = midday (11am-1pm)

 

子午流注 = Zi Wu Liu Zhu = Flowing = Think MCO... Qi flow and circulation through the Governing and Conception vessels...

Edited January 31, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

Answered:

"Li Quan said: 'the significance of returning the elixir, it's based upon the Sacred Water in the Splendid Pool.'

The Taoist priest 紫华 said: 'Letting the Lead enter the Mercury was called the Sacred Water, letting the Mercury dive toss into the Lead was called the Splendid Pool.

Taoist priest 海蟾 said: 'It was known that the sacred water comes from the higher source.'

Taoist priest 紫清 said: 'The Splendid Pool is at the 气海(Chi Hai).'"

 

 

Note: 气海(chi hai) is an acupuncture point in the "lower dan tian" below the navel .

 

 

 

Please note that the contents in this thread are defining all the definitions of the Taoist terms. Once ever in doubt, it's good to return here for the true definitions.

Then let's define some of it...

 

Lead and Mercury = Heaven and Earth = Dragon and Tiger = Water and Fire = Yin and Yang = Spirit and Qi = Original Spirit (元神) and Original Qi （元气) = Innate nature and Life Destiny = Knowledge of the Dao and Purity = Original Oneness.

 

Qi Hai = lower dan tian region

 

 

'true earth clasping true lead, true lead controlling true mercury, mercury and lead return to earth, the heart still and unbowed'. - Opening poem of the 400 Word Essay on the Golden Elixir by Zhang Boduan

 

 

 

Blend as one the Lead and Mercury,

If you want to form an Elixir -

"When neither great nor small suffer,

Both kingdoms stay entire".

If you ask me, "What is this thing,

The True Lead?"

I reply - "Like moonlight...

At the end of the day on Western River".

 

From Wu Chen Pien

 

 

The teachings and practices of the early Quanzhen Taoist masters

 

"Flying the Metallic Essence Behind the Elbows"

 

Combining the Lead and Mercury allows Original Qi to naturally flow from the abdomen up the spine to the brain. Perform at the time inbetween Zi (midnight) and Wu (midday);

[ChiDragon]

　　问曰：“何谓子午？”

 

　　答曰：“子午，乃天地之中也。在天为曰月，在人为心肾，在时为子午，在卦为坎离，在方为南北。”

 

 

This diagram is drawn upside down with respect to the Yi Jing convention. The Taoist principles are all related to the later version Ba Gua as know as the 后天八卦(Later Heaven Ba Gua).

 

Question: What are Zi(子) and Wu(午)?

 

Answered: Zi-Wu, it is between Heaven and Earth. In Heaven, they are the Sun and the Moon. In human, they are the kidney and the heart. In time, they are Zi and Wu. In the Ba Gua, they are Kan(坎) and Li(離). In directions, they are South and North.

 

To understand or interpret these phrases, the reader must have a great knowledge of the Yi Jing.

 

First of all, why Zi-Wu is between Heaven and Earth? It has a lot to do with the Ba Gua diagram. By the Yi Jing convention, we have to rotation the shown diagram by 180 degrees. Now, draw a vertical line in the middle, this line is called Zi-Wu line. It divides the day and night on earth.

 

1. Zi-Wu is between Heaven and Earth.

From the Early Version(Heaven) Ba Gua, 乾(Qian, Heaven), is at the top and 坤(Kun, Earth), is at the bottom. Wu(午) is noon and on top of the diagram, after the rotation, and Zi(子) is at the bottom. Thus it was said that Zi-Wu is between Heaven and Earth.

 

2. In the Ba Gua, they are Kan(坎) and Li(離).

Kan(坎): water; moon

Li(離): fire; sun

 

3. In Heaven, they are the Sun and the Moon.

Wu(午) is located in the same position as the Li(離) which is the sun.

Zi(子) is located in the same position as the Kan(坎) which is the moon.

 

4. In directions, they are South and North.

The needle of the Chinese compass is always pointing at the South; by the Yi Jing convention, South is always at the top of the Ba Gua.

 

5. In human, they are the kidney and the heart.

In TCM, the Taoists assigned the kidney to Kan(坎) which has the attribute as water.

The heart was assigned to Li(離) which has the attribute as fire.

 

To study the Traditional Chinese Medicine(TCM), the student must be familiar with the Yi Jing, in order, to get the relationship between the five elements and the internal organs. Hence, the Five Element Theory is the key to TCM.

Edited February 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

问曰：何谓三田？

答曰：脑为上田，心为中田，气海为下田。若得斗柄之机斡运，则上下循环如天河之流转也。

 

Question: What are the three fields?

Answer: The brain is the upper field; the heart, the middle field; the sea of qi, the lower field. If one obtains the the handle of the Big Dipper and revolves it, then cycling up and down is like the revolving flow of the Milky Way.

 

People, here, in the forum had mentioned about the "dan tien" many many times. Finally, here are the definitions.

 

Question: "What are the three "tian(s)."

Answer: "The brain is the upper dan tian(上田); the heart is the middle dan tian(中田); the Chi Hai(气海 or 氣海) is the lower dan tian(下田).

 

 

Note: 田(tian) was defined as 丹田(dan tian) earlier in this thread.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

People, here, in the forum had mentioned about the "dan tien" many many times. Finally, here are the definitions.

 

Question: "What are the three "tian(s)."

Answer: "The brain is the upper dan tian(上田); the heart is the middle dan tian(中田); the Chi Hai(气海 or 氣海) is the lower dan tian(下田).

 

 

Note: 田(tian) was defined as 丹田(dan tian) earlier in this thread.

And yet again... simply a definition without explanation...

 

What connects the 3 dan tians and effects transformation?

 

Tell us the 9 chambers within each dan tian?

 

If your going to claim definitions then fully explain it...

[ChiDragon]

This is only a translation from a given Chinese classic to English....

 

Why should I say more to cause confusion....???

Edited February 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

The translation is confusing...that's the point of explaining. Maybe you want to talk in terms of lead and mercury and claim that is all one needs to know. But it is not explaining the neidan/alchemy aspect.

 

At least you could be honest and just say you don't explain because you simply do not know it's deepest meanings. I think you've proven that enough times, just like this time by avoiding my point.

 

Translate away...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chi Dragon,

 

How do you understand the meaning of "the Handle of the Big Dipper?"

[ChiDragon]

Chi Dragon,

 

How do you understand the meaning of "the Handle of the Big Dipper?"

 

There are two ways of looking at it:

1. One revolution of the Earth.

2. One revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

 

1. During one rotation of the Earth, the "Handle of the Big Dipper" acts the "hour hand" of the clock.

 

2. During one rotation of the Earth around the Sun, the Handle points toward one direction determines the seasons of the year.

a. If the Handle pointing at the East, then it is Spring.

b. If it is pointing at the South, then it is Summer.

c. If it is pointing at the West, then it is Autumn.

d. If it is pointing at the North, then it is Winter.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There are two ways of looking at it:

1. One revolution of the Earth.

2. One revolution of the Earth around the Sun.

 

1. During one rotation of the Earth, the "Handle of the Big Dipper" acts the "hour hand" of the clock.

 

2. During one rotation of the Earth around the Sun, the Handle points toward one direction determines the seasons of the year.

a. If the Handle pointing at the East, then it is Spring.

b. If it is pointing at the South, then it is Summer.

c. If it is pointing at the West, then it is Autumn.

d. If it is pointing at the North, then it is Winter.

 

Do you think there's more to it here though?

 

问曰：何谓三田？

答曰：脑为上田，心为中田，气海为下田。若得斗柄之机斡运，则上下循环如天河之流转也。

 

Question: What are the three fields?

Answer: The brain is the upper field; the heart, the middle field; the sea of qi, the lower field. If one obtains the the handle of the Big Dipper and revolves it, then cycling up and down is like the revolving flow of the Milky Way.

[ChiDragon]

问曰：何谓搬运？答曰：搬金精于肘后，运玉液于泥丸，下手工夫口诀存焉。

 

Question: What does it mean to carry and transport?

 

Answer: Carry the golden essence at behind the elbows, transport the jade liquid at the mud pill palace - Such is the oral teaching for applying oneself to cultivation.

 

 

Do you think there's more to it here though?

 

问曰：何谓三田？

答曰：脑为上田，心为中田，气海为下田。若得斗柄之机斡运，则上下循环如天河之流转也。

 

Question: What are the three fields?

Answer: The brain is the upper field; the heart, the middle field; the sea of qi, the lower field. If one obtains the the handle of the Big Dipper and revolves it, then cycling up and down is like the revolving flow of the Milky Way.

 

Yes, it was related to the golden essence in the above statement. It was saying that the golden essence was circulating up and down in the dan tian(s) seems like the spinning motion of the Handle of the Big Dipper.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, it was related to the golden essence in the above statement. It was saying that the golden essence was circulating up and down in the dan tian(s) seems like the spinning motion of the Handle of the Big Dipper.

 

But isn't the handle of the big dipper the North Star, which does not move?

[ChiDragon]

But isn't the handle of the big dipper the North Star, which does not move?

Yes, you and I knew that; but the ancients thought it moves at the time.....

[dawei]

Yes, it was related to the golden essence in the above statement. It was saying that the golden essence was circulating up and down in the dan tian(s) seems like the spinning motion of the Handle of the Big Dipper.

That is not my understanding.

 

The upper dan tian is the location of the 'mud pill' previously mentioned... It is related to this. This is the path of 'returning'.

 

 

but the ancients thought it moves at the time.....

That is definitely not true. Most ancient cultures knew it did not move.

 

Confucius even said:

為政以德，譬如北辰居其所而眾星共之。

He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place when all the stars are rotating about it.

[ChiDragon]

 

Confucius even said:

為政以德，譬如北辰居其所而眾星共之。

He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place when all the stars are rotating about it.

Where does it say all the stars are rotating about it...??? You just do not comprehend what your are really quoting.

 

It is a very poor translation.

 

PS...

I am doing a direct translation from the given classic text. However, you seem to be always bring up something from another document which is so irrelevant to the materials are being discussed. I am sorry. I just do not have to communication skill to deal with your thoughts.....

Edited February 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Where does it say all the stars are rotating about it...??? You just do not comprehend what your are really quoting.

 

It is a very poor translation.

 

PS...

I am doing a direct translation from the given classic text. However, you seem to be always bring up something from another document which is so irrelevant to the materials are being discussed. I am sorry. I just do not have to communication skill to deal with your thoughts.....

I neglected to note that this translation is from Legge... the most prolific translator of ancient chinese texts... So I can see you have a low opinion of his scholarly understanding and skills as a translator.

 

But he shows why a direct translation misses the mark; if the North Star is in its "appointed place" (其所) then it stands to reason/logic that the meaning is the rest are rotating.

 

Yes, I absolutely agree... you lack communication skills [and translation skills] to convey the meaning of a passage at times. But apparently you can't even understand what an ancient philosopher meant concerning the North Star.

 

The amount of mis-information you have spewed at this site is enormous. Forgive some of us if we want to call BS on it at times.

 

Translate [directly] on...

Edited February 3, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

问曰：何谓三田？

Question: What are the three fields?

 

答曰：脑为上田，

Answer: "The brain(脑) is the upper dan tian(上田);

 

心为中田，

The heart(心) is the middle dan tian(中田);

 

气海为下田。

The Chi Hai(气海 or 氣海) is the lower dan tian(下田).

 

 

若得斗柄之机斡运，则上下循环如天河之流转也。

It seems like the motion of the Hand of the Big Dipper, thus it was repeatedly rotating up and down like the flowing motion of the heavenly river.

 

 

PS....

This is a DIRECT translation from a given Chinese classic text without any outside influence.