Oh Fuck Yeah! Get Laid or Die Trying, BITCH!

[konchog uma]

You realize that quality seduction techniques do exactly this, don't you?

 

hahaha you realize you don't need seduction techniques, not even the quality ones, to do this, don't you?

 

Again, seduction techniques don't teach anything that people don't already do. People who are "naturals" with women, people who can intuitively read people/situations/"energies" do this same thing every day, they just don't know they are doing it.

 

sure they do. I'm a natural, and i know exactly what i'm doing, and i don't do that creepy stuff. So there goes that theory.

 

Quality seduction techniques identify the underlying mechanisms, names them, and provides a framework that someone who isn't learning them naturally can do them.

 

yes, but unfortunately there seems to be a creepy trend that speaks for itself. These gurus just don't have a developed sense of integrity. I get a strong sense that a lot of them have personal problems. Beats me, but anyways, yes, i know what seduction techniques do.

 

So basically you think dudes should instead learn to be living, breathing sex toys to get girls off so they keep coming back? Sheesh. At least seduction techniques teach you how to listen and relate to people.

 

if you're going to engage me on this topic, please don't waste my time by twisting my words. I did not say that men should be sex toys, i said they should cultivate good bedroom skills because the confidence that this brings is naturally and organically attractive. ???

 

Seduction techniques are not the only way that a person can learn to listen and relate to people, they are just one way, and they are not the most natural way is all i am suggesting.

 

In other words, just because you CAN do something doesnt mean you SHOULD do something

 

Such as...?

 

well i think starting with just basic bedroom skills is a good way to build natural confidence, so there are a lot of infos out there about how to be a better lover, all of which is good in my opinion. I'm reading The Good In Bed Guide To Orally Pleasuring a Woman right now, and i recommend that. But i recommend using a search engine and following your instincts! Beyond that, look into semen retention for starters. The best introduction to daoist bedroom arts that i can think of is probably Dan Reid's "The Tao of Health Sex and Longevity"

[Sloppy Zhang]

hahaha the fact that they achive the same ends does not make them the same thing.

 

Their process is the same as well. It's just a matter of whether you are cognizant of it happening or not. For naturals, it has been hardwired into their brains for decades, so it only appears "natural", "spontaneous", "intuitive", or "genuine" to them, because they don't have the awareness to see all of the billions of micro processes that are going on in their brain which are subconsciously picking up on body language, language, inflection, eye movements, surrounding environment, etc.

 

for the sake of the outcome you will generate with your manipulation.

 

Exactly the same goes for the "naturals". They do it because they enjoy doing it because they know where it will lead them. They just aren't cognizant of it. At least the socially challenged people who learn through structure KNOW that they are doing it.

 

"Naturals" do the same stuff, but put on airs about being "genuine" and blah blah blah. It's bullshit, really.

 

while the other in the same sense is "dishonest" although thats your word not mine. mine were insincere...

 

Again, pretty much the same shit, spun different ways.

 

its just the difference between being-in-the-moment and being-removed-from-the-moment.

 

Again, "naturals" have learned to do the same things. They just don't know that they've learned it. People who don't cope well with social situations haven't picked it up subconsciously. So they actually have to go in and break it down.

 

And to some people, especially "naturals", that looks "insincere", because for "naturals", that's not how the "magic", the "intuitiveness", the "sincerity" happens. I consider myself somewhat of a "natural", so at first I was saying the same things as you were saying. But then I read some pickup theory and stuff (mystery method, among others), and saw the value in it. I saw it in what I had done, and what I have seen others do.

 

Again, it's the same stuff wrapped differently. "Naturals" will do the same shit that pickup artists do, but "naturals" will say "just be in the moment and go with what happens", because they have learned, they just don't know it. Pickup artists know not only what works, but WHY it works. So they can both teach it, and adapt it for different contexts, which some naturals won't do.

 

more flirtationally challenged guys have to scheme and ponder

 

Don't you just love the spin?

 

and you are following predetermined steps, you are taking yourself out of the moment, cheapening what could be a beautfiul experience and replacing it with something far more contrived.

 

Again, "naturals" have learned to do this without being aware. Your beautiful experiences had the exact same forces at play that pickup artists' experiences had. Except they knew it, and you do not. So maybe ignorance is bliss?

[Sloppy Zhang]

hahaha you realize you don't need seduction techniques, not even the quality ones, to do this, don't you?

 

Quality seduction techniques use the same mechanisms that "genuine moments" have. Except that quality seduction techniques know what's going on and why. Others do not.

 

If you can pick up stuff without knowing what's going on, more power to you. If you can't, then there's no harm in learning the mechanics so you can start having the quality experiences.

 

sure they do. I'm a natural, and i know exactly what i'm doing, and i don't do that creepy stuff. So there goes that theory.

 

If you know what you're doing, then you know that seduction techniques are based in reality So, actually, you just proved the theory You might not do things that you may personally characterize as "creepy" (more spin, btw), but that doesn't mean that the mechanics behind the actions (of things you do or don't do) are any difference.

 

if you're going to engage me on this topic, please don't waste my time by twisting my words. I did not say that men should be sex toys, i said they should cultivate good bedroom skills because the confidence that this brings is naturally and organically attractive. ???

 

Right. And then you followed that up by saying that this way a girl will call you up again because of what you did in the bedroom Better than a vibrator, and cooks too!

 

Seduction techniques are not the only way that a person can learn to listen and relate to people, they are just one way, and they are not the most natural way is all i am suggesting.

 

All the underlying principles are the same.

 

You can use knowledge of human anatomy to learn karate, basketball, or weaving. Some bodies, different training and applications.

 

well i think starting with just basic bedroom skills is a good way to build natural confidence, so there are a lot of infos out there about how to be a better lover, all of which is good in my opinion.

 

That's pretty broad, you know....

[Josama]

Here you go Sloppy : http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies_eyes.php.

 

Knowing how to "read" a person doesn't mean that you have to use it practically.I don't,I a m a not so bad looking,1,85 m,athletic guy + I have a really strong love frequency so I don't need it.

For me it's just interesting to know,but there are guys in these world who no matter what they do they wont find a girl because they are just too pot ugly,these guys need these seduction techniques real bad cos otherwise they don't stand any chance.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Josama

[konchog uma]

Their process is the same as well. It's just a matter of whether you are cognizant of it happening or not. For naturals, it has been hardwired into their brains for decades, so it only appears "natural", "spontaneous", "intuitive", or "genuine" to them, because they don't have the awareness to see all of the billions of micro processes that are going on in their brain which are subconsciously picking up on body language, language, inflection, eye movements, surrounding environment, etc.

 

you seem convinced of the value of the pickup gurus so i'm not going to argue with you. You're welcome to your opinion. If you think being spontaneous and being contrived are the same thing, who am i to tell you otherwise.

 

My point was really that there is just a creepy approach, a vibe that pervades all those teachings that isn't respectful at all. It speaks for itself, so i don't really need to.

 

If you don't get creeped out by that stuff, thats your karma if you want to practice it. Best luck to you.

[konchog uma]

Quality seduction techniques use the same mechanisms that "genuine moments" have. Except that quality seduction techniques know what's going on and why. Others do not.

 

you sound brainwashed.. look out for those NLP types they'll getcha

 

That's pretty broad, you know....

 

its a very broadly covered topic. Use a search engine, like i advised.

 

But i gave you two specific recommendations, you just chose to ignore them and make a reply out of what you could make a contentious point out of. Tao of Health Sex and Longevity is a gem that could change your life, but if you would rather nitpick about minutiae, be my guest.

 

i'm not going to get into any further conversation with you, since you seem to think that claiming that any point of view you don't like is "spin", and claiming that NLP seduction techniques can teach you to actually listen appreciate and respect a woman. You're on your own with that line of thinking. No need to respond, I've said everything that was on my mind and now i'm done talking about it.

Edited November 1, 2011 by anamatva

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you think being spontaneous and being contrived are the same thing, who am i to tell you otherwise.

 

Ah, the spin, the spin! You're so entrenched in your dualistic worldview, you have yet to see that all is truly one!

 

Human interactions operate on the same underlying mechanisms. Those who have learned those mechanisms are successful at human interaction. Those who have not are not.

 

Some people learn it "intuitively" through trial and error over the course of their lives. Others do no. Some people don't understand why they are successful, they just "do what comes naturally". Others don't understand why they are failures, they are just "trying to be themselves".

 

If someone who routinely fails makes a study of it, they will learn to do the same things as "naturals".

 

With time, it can become habit, instinct, and "intuition" as the information becomes hardwired and they learn to pick up things on the fly, to roll with the punches, to flow within the moment, and become spontaneous.

 

My point was really that there is just a creepy approach, a vibe that pervades all those teachings that isn't respectful at all. It speaks for itself, so i don't really need to.

 

If you don't get creeped out by that stuff, thats your karma if you want to practice it. Best luck to you.

 

Spin spin spin.

 

its a very broadly covered topic. Use a search engine, like i advised.

 

Oh I have many times for many times. That's how I know your statement is broad, and that's what bothered me about it. "all of which is good", you, said... I'm not so sure you want to jump so quickly to "it's all good". Because a lot of it isn't.

 

But i gave you two specific recommendations, you just chose to ignore them and make a reply out of what you could make a contentious point out of.

 

Duh. Way to point out the obvious. That's how debates work. You bring up points on suggestions for bedroom arts. Okay. Wonderful. I haven't read those books, so I can neither confirm nor deny the quality of your points in regards to that content. So instead I comment on things I can that we have discussed so far- the underlying mechanics of social interaction, and the advertising quality spin campaign that you've been subject to and which you subject others to which involves glorifying the "naturals" who just have "it", and demonizing the "creepy", "disingenuous" people who are trying to learn "it".

 

I'm pretty "natural", but there's nothing mystical in what's going on. It's within every human's understanding and ability to enact. Pickup artists have done a phenomenal job researching what works and why it works. Can some of that information be used for "bad"? For "good"? Yes, of course. It's just information. What you do with it is up to you. Martial artists learn plenty of great ways to break kneecaps. Does that mean that martial artists are inherently psychotic physical abusers? No. In like fashion, pickup artists and pickup techniques are not all the "insincere" "creepy" tactics that I'm sure you'd like them to be.

 

i'm not going to get into any further conversation with you, since you seem to think that claiming that any point of view you don't like is "spin"

 

I've been pretty clear on why it is spin-

 

Two categories of action are virtually the same, by reason that they both operate under the same mechanics (the underlying aspects of social interaction).

 

One of them is approved- learning via trial and error on the fly, internalizing it, and not breaking down what you are doing ahead of time or after the fact.

 

One of them is "insincere"- breaking down the process of human interactions, naming phases of certain social interactions, knowing how to change to different states in relationships, and to that end, knowing what works and why.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[konchog uma]

Ah, the spin, the spin! You're so entrenched in your dualistic worldview, you have yet to see that all is truly one!

 

hahahaha like i said, i'm done talking about it.

[Immortal4life]

If you wanna learn how to get laid properly search for venusian/mystery(Erik von markovic).

These guys know EVERYTHING from picking up girls on the street to models or hired guns(strippers or girls hired for attracting men,barkeepers,also)

I read a book of him a few years back and I still know some.

It's basically all about

 

1)opening

2)demonstrating higher value than the girl you wanna pickup and/or lowering the girl's value in the eyes of the group.

3)looking for an indication of interest

4)closing phase

 

I think that was it.There is also "reframing",meaning that when you screwed up before how you change the girl's perspective about yourself.

These guys are even offering workshops,making a living out if it...

 

I think Jeff Allen was coming up around when Mystery was first getting big. I think he does in fact take a lot from Mystery's theory.

 

However, haha, Mystery's method is just a bit more complicated than 4 steps I believe. The 4th step in your list is only the closing phase of the attraction stage. After that stage, it will take several more hours to pass through the 2nd stage or comfort/rapport stage, and then after that the 3rd stage or seduction phase. If you mix these stages up what you have been doing can work against you.

 

I know that you can do well for even several hours and then screw up because you didn't want to transition from attraction stage to comfort stage. If you really don't have all the steps, lines, and moves down, and even more importantly, the transition from attraction, to comfort, to seduction, it's going to take practice, and a lot of fails. It's not fun to start out well, and then failing to get the close. But that's what it is going to take.

 

More and more I am finding that truly applying this stuff takes a lot of effort and work. Making a habit of talking to random people you don't know every day of your life, and not coming off awkwardly or like you are saying canned lines, or are self conscious, is going to take work.

 

So....with that said. Jeff Allen in his book says something that stuck in my mind. ESCALATION IS KING. I believe there is also something to be said for caveman tactics and good strong physical escalation.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Immortal4life

[Sloppy Zhang]

hahahaha like i said, i'm done talking about it.

 

Understandable.

 

Once you've set the top in motion, it's best to just let it spin

 

Quitting while you're ahead means you don't say something to mess up your own argument later down the line. Good move, for some.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Apech]

Understandable.

 

Once you've set the top in motion, it's best to just let it spin

 

Quitting while you're ahead means you don't say something to mess up your own argument later down the line. Good move, for some.

 

Is this step one in the TBs keep a thread going technique?

[konchog uma]

Understandable.

 

Once you've set the top in motion, it's best to just let it spin

 

Quitting while you're ahead means you don't say something to mess up your own argument later down the line. Good move, for some.

 

it has more to do with perceiving your arguments as being immature condescending and presumptuous. I have no interest in talking to you about it, thats all. I'm not even trying to argue, just talking about my perception of NLP seduction coaches. Theres a big difference between discussion and argument.

 

BTW we live in the real world, everything is dual, everything has poles. Oneness is wonderful blather but it doesn't apply to the common sense difference between beneficial and detrimental, respectful and disrespectful, etc. Until you figure this out, you have no right getting holier-than-thou with me about how i'm enslaved by duality. Don't presume to know what people have realized, you make yourself sound like an ass. fyi

 

if you need to have the last word, feel free to respond, but this is my last post in this thread.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Is this step one in the TBs keep a thread going technique?

 

I'm just an asshole who loves to have the last word.

 

It's also a taunt to people to keep it going. Because if they keep going, they go against what they previously said- which shows lack of integrity with their words.

 

If they stick to their word and leave, I get the last word.

 

So either way, I win

 

If you really didn't care, then it wouldn't matter. If you did care, then you re-engage and you've fallen right into my trap, mwahahahaha

 

It's step one in "working out personal issues through an internet forum"

Edited November 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Sloppy Zhang]

it has more to do with perceiving your arguments as being immature condescending and presumptuous.

 

You're welcome to your opinion.

 

 

BTW we live in the real world, everything is dual, everything has poles.

 

Not every "thing".

 

Is a knife "good" or "bad"? Depends.

 

Is knowledge of human interaction "good" or "bad"? Depends.

 

You could use it to score chicks' numbers, bed them and bounce the next day, or you could use it to navigate your way through a variety of contexts to find truly wonderful people, and engage them in such a way that it makes the experience pleasurable for both of you (pleasurable in more than just the sensual/sexual sense).

 

If you want to call people "creepy" for learning about it, if you want to call them "insincere" or "out of the moment" for having an outlined idea of what they want to do in a conversation... well, hey, that's on you. But unless you're some enlightened universal spiritual force of consciousness (and you could be, you know how I hate to make presumptions about what other people have realized...), you are acting with the same underlying cost/benefit, trial-and-error based decision making processes that the rest of us are using. Except you probably learned them young and didn't consciously think about it, or at least you don't recall consciously thinking about it, and it's so finely honed now that you react so instantaneously that you just assume it's "natural" or "spontaneous", when really it's about as "natural" and "spontaneous" as a fast break in basketball- you've trained for so long and so hard that when you see your chance, you go for it without thinking. You just do.

 

So good for you. But recognize that not everyone learns in the same way.

 

if you need to have the last word, feel free to respond, but this is my last post in this thread.

 

Where have a heard that one before.......

[Josama]

I think Jeff Allen was coming up around when Mystery was first getting big. I think he does in fact take a lot from Mystery's theory.

 

However, haha, Mystery's method is just a bit more complicated than 4 steps I believe. The 4th step in your list is only the closing phase of the attraction stage. After that stage, it will take several more hours to pass through the 2nd stage or comfort/rapport stage, and then after that the 3rd stage or seduction phase. If you mix these stages up what you have been doing can work against you.

 

I know that you can do well for even several hours and then screw up because you didn't want to transition from attraction stage to comfort stage. If you really don't have all the steps, lines, and moves down, and even more importantly, the transition from attraction, to comfort, to seduction, it's going to take practice, and a lot of fails. It's not fun to start out well, and then failing to get the close. But that's what it is going to take.

 

More and more I am finding that truly applying this stuff takes a lot of effort and work. Making a habit of talking to random people you don't know every day of your life, and not coming off awkwardly or like you are saying canned lines, or are self conscious, is going to take work.

 

So....with that said. Jeff Allen in his book says something that stuck in my mind. ESCALATION IS KING. I believe there is also something to be said for caveman tactics and good strong physical escalation.

 

Yes it's more complicated then that I just wanted to provide an overview so that people could grasp the general concept although it was poorly done.

The art of seduction also is not something new.Just look at Casanova who is said to have slept with over 200 of the most beautiful ladies back then.

There was also annother one who was said to have over 1000 but that didn't care for looks.

 

@anamatva: Like I said in my previous post there are guys that are so ugly that these techniques offer to them the only way of finding love,also like Sloppy said there are people who are doing this naturally,my brother is one like that and a master at that.

I don't know if you have seen the date doctor with Will Smith,but what he said to the asshole in the suit who wanted to hire him pretty well sums it up why we need people like Mystery.

[Apech]

I'm just an asshole who loves to have the last word.

 

It's also a taunt to people to keep it going. Because if they keep going, they go against what they previously said- which shows lack of integrity with their words.

 

If they stick to their word and leave, I get the last word.

 

So either way, I win

 

If you really didn't care, then it wouldn't matter. If you did care, then you re-engage and you've fallen right into my trap, mwahahahaha

 

It's step one in "working out personal issues through an internet forum"

 

Tell us something we haven't worked out ourselves.

[Marblehead]

Tell us something we haven't worked out ourselves.

 

Did you know that spit don't make babies?

[Apech]

Did you know that spit don't make babies?

 

No I thought that's exactly how babies are made.