Let's say you're new to energetic practices

[Otis]

If the energy body is only a metaphor then I guess the physical body is as well. So, since it is a metaphor, seems like there would be no problem walking out in the street in front of traffic. How could a truck hurt a metaphor?

Yes, the "physical body" is also a metaphor. That just means that the concept we use for the body, is not the body. We have various ways of looking at the body, via a mirror or a body map or our thoughts or self-image, but none of those is the actual body; they are just representations.

 

Likewise with the concept of the "energy body". Yes, there are great models and techniques, that have verifiable results, in working with the energy body. But the models are still metaphors. What the energy body is, can be felt, but not 100% known. It can be made friends with, but not 100% controlled.

 

IME, the body is a more true Self, than I am. It is the whole being; unlike me, since I am only the ego. So, the idea that I, the ego, could actually know the body, is backwards. The part can never know the whole.

 

Nor do I need to. To be aware in it, is enough. The body knows itself, better than I ever will. It can teach me, better than I can teach it.

 

That doesn't mean that the body isn't subject to consequences (e.g. via your rhetorical truck), of course; it just means that it is beyond my certain knowledge. The "actual" body is neither physical, nor energetic, nor spiritual because it encompasses all three (and more?). It is something beyond human description, and our models are just pointing in its direction.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Otis

[Otis]

"barefoot boogies"

 

How do I find those???

Google!

 

Terms like: free dance, trance dance, 5 rhythms, sacred dance, yoga dance, etc.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Otis

[Otis]

And still I'm a skeptic to this entire energetic body thing, so I thought I'll throw in an enormous amount of time practicing it for good measure just to prove if it's real.

I don't know about "proving" the energetic body, but I can recommend how you can feel it.

 

Just balance something on a fingertip. Spend enough time with it, so the object is easily balanced, and you can move the finger around, without dropping it. When the wobble has settled, and the balance is sure, there is an "aha" sensation, at the tip of the finger, the very sensation that lets you know you've found balance. That "aha" is what Qi feels like. Listen for that sensation, elsewhere in your body, particularly while you're relaxed, and moving with ease, and you can tune right in to the Qi of your body.

 

Balance sports, in general, are a great way to learn the feeling of Qi.

[Ya Mu]

Yes, the "physical body" is also a metaphor. That just means that the concept we use for the body, is not the body. We have various ways of looking at the body, via a mirror or a body map or our thoughts or self-image, but none of those is the actual body; they are just representations.

 

Likewise with the concept of the "energy body". Yes, there are great models and techniques, that have verifiable results, in working with the energy body. But the models are still metaphors. What the energy body is, can be felt, but not 100% known. It can be made friends with, but not 100% controlled.

 

IME, the body is a more true Self, than I am. It is the whole being; unlike me, since I am only the ego. So, the idea that I, the ego, could actually know the body, is backwards. The part can never know the whole.

 

Nor do I need to. To be aware in it, is enough. The body knows itself, better than I ever will. It can teach me, better than I can teach it.

 

That doesn't mean that the body isn't subject to consequences (e.g. via your rhetorical truck), of course; it just means that it is beyond my certain knowledge. The "actual" body is neither physical, nor energetic, nor spiritual because it encompasses all three (and more?). It is something beyond human description, and our models are just pointing in its direction.

Otis you make some very good points about spontaneity. And I have read some of your stories about your dancing relieving pain, and applaud you for your efforts. I am also fond of spontaneous dancing. Does it energize you? Of course it does. Does it make you more healthy and enhance wei qi? I would have to believe this to be so. Does it do much for your actual energy body? Not much of the aspect of physicality does.

 

What I can definitely tell you is that the physicality that you and so so many others (majority) are attached to is a very short blink of the eye - no, faster than that. At death this becomes obvious. The energy body is the immortal aspect of ourselves and is very real, certainly NOT a metaphor. If you would like to actually learn about it I suggest studying real Chinese neigong instead of thinking what you made up as having much to do with your energy body or synonymous with qigong/neigong . Because if it did, then you would absolutely know it is not a metaphor.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Ya Mu

[thelerner]

Otis you make some very good points about spontaneity. And I have read some of your stories about your dancing relieving pain, and applaud you for your efforts. I am also fond of spontaneous dancing. Does it energize you? Of course it does. Does it make you more healthy and enhance wei qi? I would have to believe this to be so. Does it do much for your actual energy body? Not much of the aspect of physicality does.

 

For anyone in the Chicagoland area I recommend doing the Full Moon Meditation at IMU (google it). Its 3 cycles of 45 minutes silent sitting 15 minutes spontaneous dance. Its held every full moon. Sadly there were only 5 people there last time. Very worthwhile. Good space, nice people, great way to celebrate the seasons.

[Otis]

Otis you make some very good points about spontaneity. And I have read some of your stories about your dancing relieving pain, and applaud you for your efforts. I am also fond of spontaneous dancing. Does it energize you? Of course it does. Does it make you more healthy and enhance wei qi? I would have to believe this to be so. Does it do much for your actual energy body? Not much of the aspect of physicality does.

 

What I can definitely tell you is that the physicality that you and so so many others (majority) are attached to is a very short blink of the eye - no, faster than that. At death this becomes obvious. The energy body is the immortal aspect of ourselves and is very real, certainly NOT a metaphor. If you would like to actually learn about it I suggest studying real Chinese neigong instead of thinking what you made up as having much to do with your energy body or synonymous with qigong/neigong . Because if it did, then you would absolutely know it is not a metaphor.

Michael, I am not trying to diminish your experience, or the sciences that you have studied. In no way, am I trying to imply that the energy body is fallacious, imaginary, or wrong.

 

A metaphor is a sign, pointing at the ineffable. Every word serves as a metaphor, because every word is a sign, not the thing itself. All language is metaphor, because it is a conceptual substitute for what actually exists. And every method is metaphor, a way of helping other human beings understand. If a human being came up with the concept (and every concept is a human creation), then it is not the actual thing in the world, but a mental representation.

 

The actual body, including its energetic aspect, knows itself, beyond the metaphor. It is the real thing. As you well know, book learning is no substitute for actually feeling the energy body. That is what I'm pointing at. The concept of energy body can be distracting, whereas the experience of energy body, can be liberating.

 

In quantum physics, the words "particle" and "wave" do correspond to actual physical phenomena, but they are not accurate descriptors of what's there, because the phenomena is always more complex than these simplistic human metaphors. What exists is something that incorporates aspects of particle and wave, and yet, is neither. It's only in our dualistic expectations, that we witness collapse of probability.

 

In the same way, systems of energy can help rough in awareness. But refinement always comes from the awareness itself. We can be taught how to ride a bike, but only up to a certain point; then we have to feel our way through it. Make any method "right", and you have necessarily excluded part of what's real. Because any method is always smaller, less perfect, than what is actually there.

[Ya Mu]

... The concept of energy body can be distracting, whereas the experience of energy body, can be liberating.

...

Agreed.

[Informer]

What would YOU do if someone came up to you and asked you to put together for them a program in brain surgery? Would you do so or suggest they go to medical school? Or in learning to play football? Would you do so or suggest to them to go for proper training? Or how about bone manipulation? Would you do so or tell them best to go to a chiropractic, osteopathic, or Chinese Tui Na school? Or how about learning the skill of belly dancing? Would you do so or tell them to go for training? What about if someone came up to you and asked for a program in cutting hair? Would you put that together? Wonder what kind of response you would get if you asked in those respective forums?

 

What comes of this sort of thing is the hundreds of sad posts,"Help me, I did such and such and it really screwed me up. What can I do?

We really should have a sticky of the summation of the those types of posts over the last several years.

 

I get requests for help all the time from people screwed up from practicing something from a book or something they read on the internet, who think the practice of energetics is something ... you know, I don't know just what the heck they think - in fact,IMO they aren't thinking at all.

 

I think this really says a lot about your perspective. I doubt the people are "screwed up". It is what it is regardless of the path that led them to you. Yes it did lead them to you eventually, or you wouldn't have been aware of thier circumstances.

 

This feels really negative, I mean any academic profession is going to be gained by mostly studying books .

 

What are some examples of people "from people screwed up", so that other might avoid that happening? As concerned as you sound, I think that would be of great benefit to many. A teacher teaches.

[Informer]

Anyway . . . I don't think you would have much of an idea of what you are looking for unless you had a knowledge base to base your decision on.

 

There are many interpretations of the same phenomena out there, no one of them is right or wrong necessarily.

 

Find an interpretation that you can relate to or prefer, then understand it as best as you can. Then you will be more apt at finding your teacher, rather than a scammer.

[Ya Mu]

I think this really says a lot about your perspective. I doubt the people are "screwed up". It is what it is regardless of the path that led them to you. Yes it did lead them to you eventually, or you wouldn't have been aware of thier circumstances.

 

This feels really negative, I mean any academic profession is going to be gained by mostly studying books .

 

What are some examples of people "from people screwed up", so that other might avoid that happening? As concerned as you sound, I think that would be of great benefit to many. A teacher teaches.

?

...

What comes of this sort of thing is the hundreds of sad posts,"Help me, I did such and such and it really screwed me up. What can I do?

We really should have a sticky of the summation of the those types of posts over the last several years.

...

It is an informed perspective from having taught and worked in a medical qigong clinic for so long. I do believe "screwed up" is a very apt term for most of these folks used these very words. The syndromes caused by sexual retention practices probably have had the most incidence in the clinical problems but it certainly has not been the total. Neurological disorders due to over-stimulation of neuro system, energy field distortion and burn through leading to complex pain syndromes as well as syncope, attempting to circulate "micro-cosmic orbit" without actually having built qi has also led to the same; seen quite a number of these. There are more, but exactly what is your point? Surely you have seen many of these posts asking for help due to them attempting to do energetic practices from a book or from internet posts. The practice of real energetics is most definitely as complex and IMO MORE complex as any of the things I mention above, and no one would attempt any of those things without first receiving training.

The problem with teaching is that most are unwilling to listen.

 

edit: Sp

Edited July 2, 2011 by Ya Mu

[Informer]

I am listening

 

I think you may not understand a difference between a function of the body/organ being screwed up, or the person themself being screwed up. It's a subtle difference.

[Ya Mu]

I am listening

 

I think you may not understand a difference between a function of the body/organ being screwed up, or the person themself being screwed up. It's a subtle difference.

I really don't think you are listening. Let's try again:

.. I do believe "screwed up" is a very apt term for most of these folks used these very words.

...

The problem with teaching is that most are unwilling to listen.

[Aetherous]

The practice of real energetics is most definitely as complex and IMO MORE complex as any of the things I mention above, and no one would attempt any of those things without first receiving training.

 

From what I understand, the stillness-movement practice is not complex...?

[Ya Mu]

From what I understand, the stillness-movement practice is not complex...?

Complex yes, as there are many stages and layers. Difficult? No. Very simple.

The interactions of energetics with the human body is indeed complex.

[Informer]

I really don't think you are listening. Let's try again:

 

I think you may not understand a difference between a function of the body/organ being screwed up, or the person themself being screwed up. It's a subtle difference.

 

All the examples you gave were of organs and/or functionality being screwed up . . .

 

How did you make an informed decision on your teacher / practice / method when you decided to get training?

[Ya Mu]

I think you may not understand a difference between a function of the body/organ being screwed up, or the person themself being screwed up. It's a subtle difference.

 

All the examples you gave were of organs and/or functionality being screwed up . . .

 

How did you make an informed decision on your teacher / practice / method when you decided to get training?

OK, read one more time - 3rd time is a charm they say.

"... I do believe "screwed up" is a very apt term for most of these folks used these very words (themselves)." the word "themselves" added for clarity

Don't know how to make it any more clearer. Of course I understand the difference, you are just not reading what was written. Exactly where did I talk about organs? Are you referring to a separate thread?

 

Informed decision?

Destiny

[Informer]

OK, read one more time - 3rd time is a charm they say.

"... I do believe "screwed up" is a very apt term for most of these folks used these very words (themselves)." the word "themselves" added for clarity

Don't know how to make it any more clearer. Of course I understand the difference, you are just not reading what was written. Exactly where did I talk about organs? Are you referring to a separate thread?

 

Informed decision?

Destiny

Ah, my point. You were born into it I take it? In some manner there was no decision to be made for you. So by the same token it was these people's destiny as well . . .

 

Some can learn from books as well, as most is done by oneself anyway, with guidance. Some may be foolhardy to try and experience things like you said, although other will succeed in this same manner. Although you don't see that, as those wouldn't need to come to the clinic and get help.

 

I do understand your perspective, although not in an absolute sense that you seem too.

[Informer]

I think if a student wants to experiment on his own he will do so regardless of an instructor or not.

 

I personally haven't read any book that would lead to damage if the instructions are fallowed as directed.

 

If people knows of any please post it!

[Ya Mu]

Ah, my point. You were born into it I take it? In some manner there was no decision to be made for you. So by the same token it was these people's destiny as well . . .

 

Some can learn from books as well, as most is done by oneself anyway, with guidance. Some may be foolhardy to try and experience things like you said, although other will succeed in this same manner. Although you don't see that, as those wouldn't need to come to the clinic and get help.

 

I do understand your perspective, although not in an absolute sense that you seem too.

You misunderstand what I mean as "Destiny". I also have posted here several times about this. People are not generally going to awaken to who they really are from reading a book or reading posts on the internet. Just as I am now wasting my time because you really are not interested in learning. Only in making points derived from your lack of understanding. Do you really think the true inner practices are gained from a book or from the internet? Then have at it if that is what you think and want.

 

Sure there are minor successes by people trying something they read (and these same people think they are doing the "real thing"). From what I see there are much more traumas than successes or at the very least, if not traumas, complete wastes of time. Either you just don't understand the difference in actually learning the real thing or you are unwilling to listen to those with experience. Concerning learning from books, read this post:

"For over three years the only books that I purchased were on Reiki, Qigong, and Energy Healing in general. I spent a LOT of money on books. Then in September of 2007 I attended a workshop of Michael's... On the advice of Chris I packed all my books away and devoted myself to doing the Stillness/Movement meditation for an hour every day. Now it is over a year later and for the last year I haven't bought any Qigong books...

As Michael says - "You can read books on Qigong from now until the end of time and you won't gain as much as you can from DOING an hours worth of meditation (specifically the Stillness/Movement meditation)." And I have found this to be very true." I added the bold.

 

It is as foolish (Being a fool) to attempt to try these things with no background or basis as it is to read a book and go do brain surgery. You can "screw up" (and since you don't like the word that the patients themselves use, let's define it as "make one's life miserable" just as many people from the former as kill numbers of people from the latter. But since you don't think so, perhaps you could get a volunteer for brain surgery from posting on a forum. I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

This post about 2 pages back clarifies this very well:

The best advice I can give you since you are brand new is... Find someone in your area and train IN PERSON with a qualified teacher. Whether that be yoga, Tai Chi, Qigong, meditation... Whatever. BEFORE you start looking for the "fastest, best way" etc... If you are prepared to work as hard as you say, you can put some effort into finding a teacher. Get some fundamental knowledge before trying to become an overnight expert from books or videos...After getting some basics understood, THEN you will be better equipped to start experimenting with books or videos...

Bold is added by me. There are several qualified teachers in the US. MOST people are well advised to find them if they really wish to learn qigong or neigong.

[Informer]

You misunderstand what I mean as "Destiny". I also have posted here several times about this. People are not generally going to awaken to who they really are from reading a book or reading posts on the internet. Just as I am now wasting my time because you really are not interested in learning. Only in making points derived from your lack of understanding. Do you really think the true inner practices are gained from a book or from the internet? Then have at it if that is what you think and want.

 

Sure there are minor successes by people trying something they read (and these same people think they are doing the "real thing"). From what I see there are much more traumas than successes or at the very least, if not traumas, complete wastes of time. Either you just don't understand the difference in actually learning the real thing or you are unwilling to listen to those with experience. Concerning learning from books, read this post:

"For over three years the only books that I purchased were on Reiki, Qigong, and Energy Healing in general. I spent a LOT of money on books. Then in September of 2007 I attended a workshop of Michael's... On the advice of Chris I packed all my books away and devoted myself to doing the Stillness/Movement meditation for an hour every day. Now it is over a year later and for the last year I haven't bought any Qigong books...

As Michael says - "You can read books on Qigong from now until the end of time and you won't gain as much as you can from DOING an hours worth of meditation (specifically the Stillness/Movement meditation)." And I have found this to be very true." I added the bold.

 

It is as foolish (Being a fool) to attempt to try these things with no background or basis as it is to read a book and go do brain surgery. You can "screw up" (and since you don't like the word that the patients themselves use, let's define it as "make one's life miserable" just as many people from the former as kill numbers of people from the latter. But since you don't think so, perhaps you could get a volunteer for brain surgery from posting on a forum. I certainly wouldn't be surprised.

This post about 2 pages back clarifies this very well:

Bold is added by me. There are several qualified teachers in the US. MOST people are well advised to find them if they really wish to learn qigong or neigong.

 

Are you familiar with John Chang? He only had instruction from a teacher during the harmless aspects of cultivation, after his teacher died, he was left only a book to accomplish the rest of the more complicated training.

 

You cannot know another persons destiny, if they are poor and cannot afford a teacher, what is money to stand in the way of destiny? It's going to be so regardless of what you say or do.

 

Books are guides as are teachers. It is simply a transferring of information. It is up to the student to decide what is right for them. Not anyone else.

[Ya Mu]

The point of your statement seems to me is that John Chang had a teacher. Of course he did. But you certainly don't really know anything whatsoever about it, do you? Only students of that system do.

You are not bothering to attempt to understand here. So we are done.

[Non]

Robert Bruce's New Energy Ways got me into feeling the "energy" for the first time... though if it's the same as "energy body" I dont know.