The answer lies in the India/Nepal/Tibet Himalaya Regions afterall.. and definitely NOT in china/taiwan..

[Vajrahridaya]

The 'Zohar' is one part of a vast catalog of works under the general heading of Kabbalah. Most of the Kabbalistic texts has never been translated due to lack of funds. 'Zohar' is written in Aramaic and is very difficult to translate into English. However, Dr. Matt has been given unlimited funds to complete the 10 volumes in his lifetime.

 

Kabbalah as most Westerners know it are books that are fragments of a greater system and most books found are written by hacks who know nothing of Hebrew or Aramaic. Dr. Matt and Aryeh Kaplan are the two main scholars that have completed the most translations.

 

I challenge your contention that you know something about Kabbalah or even 'Zohar'. You read something called Kabbalah and now you think you are qualified to make judgments! To compare those works to something else such as Kashmir Shaivism without in depth study is preposterous.

 

LOL! Yes, you are right, I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to Kabbalah. I like the Bal Shem Tov, he was interesting. I've read a number of things, and I've been influenced by people who know Hebrew on readings of Kabbalah and it's teachings. I know more than you think about it, remember that NYC has many very devoted Jews who read Hebrew and many of them practice Kabbalah and Siddha Yoga as well, which is how I got into it a bit. But sure, I'm no pro.

 

Still... what do I need it for? I've got Dzogchen that leads to the Rainbow Body. That's enough for me. I think you're scared of Buddhism, as it doesn't reify existence for you... as Nagarjuna said, "Other paths take one to the edge of Samsara." It's a very high edge, a good place to be. Who knows, maybe some Kabbalah practitioners attained the Rainbow Body? I'm not attached to either answer. I know Dzogchen does lead to Jalus, and different types of Rainbow Body at that. I don't have to learn another language to get those teachings either. We have a living lineage right now, right here that knows all about it.

[ralis]

I agree, but ralis seems to think that DO&E is just a mental conceptual play thing, and it's not... it's an intuition when one gets it. Anyway... yes, there are most likely plenty of realizers from other traditions, it's just that the way Buddhism presents it conceptually seems to be the clearest.

 

 

 

Let me explain so that everything is nice and clear. Ok? Language by it's very nature is limited in describing phenomena. What that means is that language is a symbolic representation of an object, a state of mind, or even a proposition. In other words, language is not an absolute function as you so desperately want to believe! Languages are cultural standards so that everyone can understand each other and try to get along. Is that clear?

Edited June 5, 2011 by ralis

[steve]

Here is vol.1. I believe the complete work will be 10 volumes. Matt is a first rate scholar and translator.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Zohar-Pritzker-Vol-1/dp/0804747474/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1307251254&sr=8-9

Thanks!

[ralis]

LOL! Yes, you are right, I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to Kabbalah. I like the Bal Shem Tov, he was interesting. I've read a number of things, and I've been influenced by people who know Hebrew on readings of Kabbalah and it's teachings. I know more than you think about it, remember that NYC has many very devoted Jews who read Hebrew and many of them practice Kabbalah and Siddha Yoga as well, which is how I got into it a bit. But sure, I'm no pro.

 

Still... what do I need it for? I've got Dzogchen that leads to the Rainbow Body. That's enough for me. I think you're scared of Buddhism, as it doesn't reify existence for you... as Nagarjuna said, "Other paths take one to the edge of Samsara." It's a very high edge, a good place to be. Who knows, maybe some Kabbalah practitioners attained the Rainbow Body? I'm not attached to either answer. I know Dzogchen does lead to Jalus, and different types of Rainbow Body at that. I don't have to learn another language to get those teachings either. We have a living lineage right now, right here that knows all about it.

 

 

I have already been over the edge and it doesn't scare me at all!

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[ralis]

This is your subjective experience and you've made a dogma out of it. This is where you are closed off, shut down, don't listen, won't hear, refuse to learn.

 

Mental dogmas are indeed deep.

 

How many has your view enlightened? Without any methods, just a bunch of words. The Vajrayana methods are not words, they are practices, methods that purify the elements, heighten awareness, deepen awareness... directly, beyond words. How many did Krishnamurti enlighten through his teachings without method? I haven't found one, just more regurgitation of rebellion against hierarchies, because their all bad? It's a good thing to have people like you around as everything should evolve and become more helpful by being contemporary. It's a good ideal to have everyone enlightened and self empowered, but this is why there are therapists, gurus, and teachers, because they do have something to teach, because people have things to learn, if the teacher doesn't get egotistically attached to the relative necessity of their position and think themselves absolute, there's room for more teachers than students, or just beings of pure light. I see a lot of Vajrayana Guru's aware of this and doing this, making teachings more contemporary and accessible, like ChNNR. But, sometimes that's a bad thing and ends up watering things down, even ChNNR has a process of higher and higher teachings and methods dependent on a persons level of progression. Like in his Santi Maha Sangha. The Dalai Lama just left his seat as political leader of Tibet, he want's to step down from the hierarchy. He is still a spiritual leader, a Guru and a highly realized being who deserves respect, not because he demands, it, but because he is it.

 

But, it seems to me that you are declaring yourself the absolute barer of truth!? You say that you see through all the Maras, do you really? I'm doubtful, your view seems to be too extreme. Now your going to pin me as a Mara in the way of your great revolution here on this board? Is that what's going to happen? I'm one of those dense idiots who can't see the absolute truth of your words?

 

These traditions of inner alchemy do not work poorly. I can attest to that, and others can as well. Your truth is subjective, and it's valid for you, right now, but it's not my truth.

 

 

Many of the Vajrayana practices were taken to Tibet from India and revised to suit Tibetans. Scholars traveled to Tibet to find the original Sanskrit texts and none were found. I guess they were destroyed. Most of the language in the texts is bastardized Sanskrit. I saw that early on when I first read and chanted those texts and that did not feel good to me!

[Vajrahridaya]

Let me explain so that everything is nice and clear. Ok? Language by it's very nature is limited in describing phenomena. What that means is that language is a symbolic representation of an object, a state of mind, or even a proposition. In other words, language is not an absolute function as you so desperately want to believe! Languages are cultural standards so that everyone can understand each other and try to get along. Is that clear?

 

Really, that's what I want to believe? LOL!

 

It's not the language, obviously, because we can say pratityasamutpada or dependent origination, or inter-dependent origination, co-dependent origination, or natural formation and primordial purity, or Lhun drub and kadag, it's the intent that the symbols are pointing to, not the language. It's the internal opening and the experience of the symbols.

 

[ralis]

Thanks!

 

I have written to Daniel via his Facebook page and he was most gracious in answering my questions.

[Vajrahridaya]

Many of the Vajrayana practices were taken to Tibet from India and revised to suit Tibetans. Scholars traveled to Tibet to find the original Sanskrit texts and none were found. I guess they were destroyed. Most of the language in the texts is bastardized Sanskrit. I saw that early on when I first read and chanted those texts and that did not feel good to me!

 

Whatever dude. They have not been destroyed as we still have them, plenty were kept. Most chants with ChNNR are in Sanskrit, not bastardized either. Also... that fact that it didn't feel good to you is your own subjective experience, conditioned by your own mind. I personally feel wonderful with the Tibetan, but all this probably has to do with past lives, karmic connection, etc. You don't have it, I do. So... whatever, you went somewhere else, that doesn't make you right over my right.

[Vajrahridaya]

I guess you're insinuating that all those Tibetan Masters are wrong because they didn't do it in Sanskrit? What a dogma man... seriously.

[ralis]

Whatever dude. They have not been destroyed as we still have them, plenty were kept. Most chants with ChNNR are in Sanskrit, not bastardized either. Also... that fact that it didn't feel good to you is your own subjective experience, conditioned by your own mind. I personally feel wonderful with the Tibetan, but all this probably has to do with past lives, karmic connection, etc. You don't have it, I do. So... whatever, you went somewhere else, that doesn't make you right over my right.

 

I believe the Chod practice is in phonetic Chinese.

 

BTW, your comment on having friends that spoke Hebrew in NYC. That is not unusual given the fact that reading Hebrew texts is part of Bat Mitzvah and Bar Mitzvah.

 

I was referring to the difficulty of translating Aramaic, not Hebrew.

Edited June 5, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Here ralis, this might interest you... which I think is good. As there is a resonance about Sanskrit which I also enjoy! I grew up chanting sanskrit so doing so is easier, but I rather enjoy the Tibetan myself. I don't know why it wouldn't be ok, it's the meaning of the symbols really, and the focus of the mind that one is after.

 

Anyway... check this out... Varanasi to Tibet

 

It's about translating the Tibetan back into Sanskrit and from there into other languages, an effort sponsored by the Dalai Lama. It seems there are original fragments of the original Sanskrit texts scattered in different regions that can be used to get the meter correct.

[Vajrahridaya]

I believe the Chod practice is in phonetic Chinese.

 

BTW, your comment on having friends that spoke Hebrew in NYC. That is not unusual given the fact that reading Hebrew texts is part of Bat Mitzvah and Bar Mitzvah.

 

Well yea, I know. LOL! Lots of traditional jews in New York. ChNN Rinpoches Chod practice is in phonetic Chinese?

[Vajrahridaya]

Here's some helpful links on the kasinas, in case you're interested:

 

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8310&start=20

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina

 

There are really 10 different kasinas or "meditation objects." These include some colors as well. Mastering each leads to various siddhis.

 

Cool. Love your photo by the way... I know the reference.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Really, that's what I want to believe? LOL!

 

It's not the language, obviously, because we can say pratityasamutpada or dependent origination, or inter-dependent origination, co-dependent origination, or natural formation and primordial purity, or Lhun drub and kadag, it's the intent that the symbols are pointing to, not the language. It's the internal opening and the experience of the symbols.

 

 

Yet you still try to dominate the conversation by using terms you believe are absolute in nature.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yet you still try to dominate the conversation by using terms you believe are absolute in nature.

 

If the experience or insight is clear, so are the concepts that point to them. That is all.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[C T]

If the experience or insight is clear, so are the concepts that point to them. That is all.

...and then the concepts further clarifies experience and insight, endlessly! Its like a cosmic snake and ladders board, manifested at the micro level. Often, it is how we express intentions thru body, speech and mind that directly determines how we continue the game. Of course in the actual game itself, intentions are replaced by the dices. To excel in both, its good to maintain the position of non-attachment to outcomes, otherwise contractions may arise, interdependently and all. If the View is kept, then it can clearly be seen that there is no need whatsoever to crave the longer ladders, nor despise the short ones. Everything in their time. Just remind myself to be still, and wait... like a ninja :lol:

[C T]

C'mon bro, lighten up! You shouldn't take yourself so seriously all the time. Life's too short to be riled up all the time, over what other people say to you.

 

Life should be viewed like a stage play: Each part of your life, each day, week, month, decade or phase; Is like a different scene to act out. We have to deal with people and we have to deal with the shit that happens in our lives. Each day is like acting out a different part of the play. We have to improvise according to the scene. Whatever you choose to do, whatever path you follow; In the end it's all leading up to the point where we act out our last scene and take our final bow. Life's what you make of it.

 

Look, I don't care either way whether you accept or reject what Buddhism teaches or my posts. So there's no need to apologize.

 

If you can detach from ego-mind and always reflect on or check up on yourself: Then no matter what you choose to believe in, you'll have a chance of making spiritual progress. Though if you come to realize E&D.O., and choose to follow Buddhism, then fine that's great. If you don't and still don't like Buddhism, then fine that's great.

 

Unrelated to the above: I really did use that line, and she kinda had a "wtf.." look on her face, while smiling. I just laughed out loud. I really just liked how that comment of yours sounded like a sexual innuendo. Sometimes I like to come up with new ways to say these things to see people's reaction: Whether it makes people laugh or feel uncomfortable or just puzzled. You could say I'm a connoisseur of sexual innuendo's. So thanks for posting that.

 

So it's nothing personal, kay?

Aww... that's so sweet

[Vajrahridaya]

I know that Vajrayana has their own form of meditating on the elements: Do you know of these practices?

 

As for the avatar: I tried putting a photo of him as Prince, but it was too big dammit!....That's what she said! Bam!

 

Do you know that reference?

 

HAHAHA!! You're the type of guy I'd like to hang out with... you sound like fun.

 

Anyway... yes, I know the practice it's in ChNNR's Ngondro, or his Tun's of which he has regular medium and long tuns. Actually one of the things that impressed me, of the many even more impressive things about ChNNR was that I had Eczema for years, and my SY practices weren't purifying it, but I met ChNNR and was blown away first by his practices, some of his students, and his transmission of mantra to me in person was the true kicker on that day that made me a Dzogchenpa. But, he did say to me that my water element was off and that when in the shower I should chant the water mantra which he gave me and I should focus on the water element, and do that whenever I drink water... etc. He said it had to do with my liver. So, I did it and in one week it went away and never came back! I had it bad too, my fingers and hand would get so bad they would bleed and scar, they are still scarred from my 7 year bout with eczema, but since doing his Tun's on the elements, nada eczema for the last 7 years.

 

That's my word!

[ralis]

If the experience or insight is clear, so are the concepts that point to them. That is all.

 

Fine! Just point your authoritarianism back at yourself!

[Vajrahridaya]

...and then the concepts further clarifies experience and insight, endlessly! Its like a cosmic snake and ladders board, manifested at the micro level. Often, it is how we express intentions thru body, speech and mind that directly determines how we continue the game. Of course in the actual game itself, intentions are replaced by the dices. To excel in both, its good to maintain the position of non-attachment to outcomes, otherwise contractions may arise, interdependently and all. If the View is kept, then it can clearly be seen that there is no need whatsoever to crave the longer ladders, nor despise the short ones. Everything in their time. Just remind myself to be still, and wait... like a ninja :lol:

 

Indeed... innnndeed. HIIIIYA!!

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[ralis]

This song rattled my cage in 1971 and I realized that I could never devote myself to any guru or religious authoritarianism. Although it did take years for me to be strong enough. :lol:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCcwNoVSt2E

Edited June 6, 2011 by ralis