[TTC Study] Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Stosh]

Tian Xia (天下)

 

While there is a bit of political soverignty, I would go with All-under-Heaven... or 'of the world'

Ok, that's fine too, I'm thinking its a basic idea that the 'microcosm recapitulates the macrocosm'. And so the virtuous return to the high potential of the origin, could refer to the cosmos , or the state,  or the individual.  Underheaven could even be the brain in the cranial vault  

[dawei]

**** both 制 and 割 use the 刀 knife radical, which to my mind is a clear play on words

      -- in other words, though, "Great rulership/creativity does not divide/harm."

 

I like this... but does not divide or harm [the country]?   Ties back to Tian Xia...

[Stosh]

Be honorable, having true virtue , but dont expose others for their lack of it 

hide or mitigate ,their flaw ,to nurture their incomplete virtue ,

in doing this one preserves their own non-discriminating attitude or humility

rather than be dragged down 

This new carved - affected person , friend, citizen , is then become an asset rather than enemy 

and the divided are unified to greater good. 

 

Not being discriminatory is a positive virtue spiritually and materially

Edited April 22, 2015 by Stosh

[dust]

I like this... but does not divide or harm [the country]?   Ties back to Tian Xia...

 

You mean, it would be better to explicitly refer to "the country"?

 

 

 

Not being discriminatory is a positive virtue spiritually and materially

 

Yes, I think we hit the same point:

 

The best rulership is not dividing :: Not being discriminatory is a virtue

[dawei]

You mean, it would be better to explicitly refer to "the country"?

 

I was really trying to see if that is your meaning for split / harm?  In regards to the country or something else?

[dust]

Yes, well I was thinking that if we're interpreting on a rulership level, then we must infer the country & its people

 

 

2 more things:

 

 

 

Firstly,

 

Darkstar recently noted something that we seem to have overlooked here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu_%28Daoism%29

The transmitted version 樸散則為器聖人用之則為官長 "When the uncarved wood is broken up, it is turned into concrete things. But when the sage uses it, he becomes the leading official." should be read 樸散則為器聖人用則為官長 "When uncarved wood is cut up, it's turned into vessels. When the Sage is used, he becomes the Head of Officials." D. C. Lau says the traditional passage "seems to say that when the uncarved block shatters it becomes vessels. A vessel is a specialist who is only fitted to be an official. Hence the sage when he makes use of these vessels becomes the lord over the officials.", but in Mawangdui passage, "The meaning is very different. The uncarved block is a symbol for the sage. Just as the uncarved block becomes vessels when it shatters so does the sage become the chief of the officials when he allows himself to be employed, and just as the uncarved block is ruined when it becomes useful, so does a sage become ruined when he becomes useful."

 

And this makes sense, though... I don't know how it fits with the last line.

 

When uncarved wood is cut up, it's turned into vessels;
When the Sage is used, he becomes the Head of Officials.
Truly, great carving is done without splitting up.

(Henricks)

 

Though the lines make sense individually, I don't understand how they make sense together..? (same goes for my own translation above, in fact)

 

 

 

 

Secondly,

 

Looking more vigorously at 散 and 器:

 

散

http://www.zdic.net/z/1a/xs/6563.htm

free, natural, random, scattered, useless, break up, distribute, dissipate

 

器

http://www.zdic.net/z/17/xs/5668.htm

utensil, capacity, organ, talent

 

 

So we might translate:

 

樸散則為器                   The 'uselessness' / naturalness / freeness of the uncarved block gives it its usefulness / capacity

聖人用(之)則為官長    The wise man (being the uncarved block) is used as the head official (the brain of the whole body) *

故大制不割                   So it is said that "Great cutting does not divide."

 

 

* 官 also meaning 'organ'

  -- we see this meaning in another Daoist text, in Zhuangzi's Cook Ding:

      "官知止而神欲行 (Brain/sensory) knowledge stops and the spirit goes as it will"

Edited April 22, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

i read what you guys wrote with interest but have to hoe my row further. where were we? oh yeah...

That’s the hypothesis we will use to analyze these 3 repetitive statements then

 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。

       Make the Underheaven (creek?),  constant De not deviated from, returning to the condition of a newborn.

知其白，守其黑，為天下式。為天下式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。

      Make the Underheaven orderly, constant De is not harmed, returning to the Limitless.

知其榮，守其辱，為天下谷。為天下谷/浴，常德乃足，復歸於樸。

       Make the Underheaven (valley/bath?), constant De complete, returning to the condition of uncarved block. 

So 3 sentences, same thing in different 3 wordings, 2 words not making sense at all. Combining the Underheaven with a geological feature does not occur anywhere else except in epigone quotations of ZZ, Wenzi and Heshanggong. These 3 authors, in their turn make a  very unconvincing attempt at rationalizing it, Therefore this locus must be a scribal error with the meaning of the entire passage forgotten early on.

 

Luckily this expression was preserved in 'Confucian' literature as a standard combo 為天下名士顯人 'to become or made into famous and illustrious men of the Underheaven'.

 

the nonsensical creek  谿 is actually a scribal error for illustrious  顯 , while the incongruous bath 浴 is an error for famous 名.

 

 

 

可笑！3 000 years of pontification about creeks and ravines all because the Taoists have not done their Confucian homework. 

[dust]

i read what you guys wrote with interest but have to hoe my row further. where were we? oh yeah...

 

We've all been working at slightly different angles, but I'm hoping that what we've got comes together eventually

 

 

So 3 sentences, same thing in different 3 wordings, 2 words not making sense at all. Combining the Underheaven with a geological feature does not occur anywhere else except in epigone quotations of ZZ, Wenzi and Heshanggong. These 3 authors, in their turn make a  very unconvincing attempt at rationalizing it, Therefore this locus must be a scribal error with the meaning of the entire passage forgotten early on.

 

Whilst I'm usually not quick to accept partial explanations of Laozi by later writers, the fact that Heshanggong and Wz and Zz all use similar text suggests to me that there's something in it

 

 

Luckily this expression was preserved in 'Confucian' literature as a standard combo 為天下名士顯人 'to become or made into famous and illustrious men of the Underheaven'.

 

the nonsensical creek  谿 is actually a scribal error for illustrious  顯 , while the incongruous bath 浴 is an error for famous 名.

 

 

 

可笑！3 000 years of pontification about creeks and ravines all because the Taoists have not done their Confucian homework. 

 

Plausible... but both 'mistranscriptions' are pretty large errors...!

Edited April 23, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

 creek 

 

illustrious 

 

 

 

name

 bath

[dust]

Yeah... I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone with the ability to write Chinese characters in the first place is going to confuse these!

 

Pronunciation-wise:

 

xi  vs  xian

 

gu / yu  vs  ming

 

 

Graphically, xi and xian have 1 similar (but not identical) component in common

 

      

 

 

In xi, the left portion depicts hands grabbing at rope with a person/slave underneath

In xian, the left portion depicts light shining on silk

 

Aside from this, they are entirely different in composition and meaning, and not really similar in pronunciation...

 

 

edit:

 

Though I don't know about shorthand. Could they somehow have only written the left-hand rope/silk and the right-hand component that in both characters looks similar to ?

Edited April 23, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Okay.  I want to play some more.

 

Red Pine uses the "know" (recognize) and "hold" concepts as well.

 

In his notes he quotes Wang Tao:

 

"The sage recognizes 'that' but holds onto 'this.'  'Male' and 'female' refer to hard and soft.  'Pure' and 'base' refer to noble and humble.  'White' and 'black' refer to light and dark.  Although hard, noble, and light certainly have their uses, hard does not come from hard but from soft.  Noble does not come from noble but from humble.  And light does not come from light but from dark.  Hard, noble, and light are the secondary forms and further from the Tao.  Soft, humble, and dark are the primary forms and closer to the Tao.  Hence the sage returns to the original:  a block of wood.  A block of wood can be made into tools, but tools cannot be made into a block of wood.  The sage is like a block of wood, not a tool.  He is the chief official, not a functionary."

Edited April 23, 2015 by Marblehead

[dust]

可笑！3 000 years of pontification about creeks and ravines all because the Taoists have not done their Confucian homework. 

 

Aside from those possible problems with the characters themselves... what does being a 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous scholar of the world' (or whatever) have to do with the rest of chapter 28?

 

 

"The sage recognizes 'that' but holds onto 'this.'  'Male' and 'female' refer to hard and soft.  'Pure' and 'base' refer to noble and humble.  'White' and 'black' refer to light and dark.  Although hard, noble, and light certainly have their uses, hard does not come from hard but from soft.  Noble does not come from noble but from humble.  And light does not come from light but from dark.  Hard, noble, and light are the secondary forms and further from the Tao.  Soft, humble, and dark are the primary forms and closer to the Tao.  Hence the sage returns to the original:  a block of wood.  A block of wood can be made into tools, but tools cannot be made into a block of wood.  The sage is like a block of wood, not a tool.  He is the chief official, not a functionary."

 

Yes this is also good

 

 

樸散則為器

The freeness of the uncarved block gives it its capacity

 

聖人用(之) 則為官長

The wise man (returning always to the state of the uncarved block) is used as the head official (able to carry out all functions, as he is not divided/differentiated as a specific tool)

 

故大制不割

So it is said that "Great cutting/leadership does not harm/divide."

Edited April 23, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Aside from those possible problems with the characters themselves... what does being a 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous scholar of the world' (or whatever) have to do with the rest of chapter 28?

good question. lets start with finding out what your keywords below mean in context

 

Yes this is also good

 

 

樸散則為器

The freeness of the uncarved block gives it its capacity

 

here qi 器 is a contraction of a standard combo 名器 title and privileges

 

 

 

聖人用(之) 則為官長

The wise man (returning always to the state of the uncarved block) is used as the head official (able to carry out all functions, as he is not divided/differentiated as a specific tool)

 

is a combo again not a one head official but 'the top officials'. Pls recall 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous" above

 

故大制不割

So it is said that "Great cutting/leadership does not harm/divide."

da zhi is a specific term for the whole juridical-penal system. Pls cf, the keywords 

 

 

重刑少賞，上愛民，民死上；重賞輕刑，上不愛民，民不死上。利出一空者，其國無敵；利出二空者，國半利；利出十空者，其國不守。重刑明大制，不明者，六蝨也。六蝨成群，則民不用。是故興國罰行則民親，賞行則民利。行罰，重其輕者，輕者不至，重者不來，此謂以刑去刑，刑去事成。罪重刑輕，刑至事生，此謂以刑致刑，其國必削。

Making Orders Strict:...:

If penalties are heavy and rewards few, then the ruler loves his people and they will die for him; if rewards are heavy and penalties light, then the ruler does not love his people nor will they die for him. If the profit disappears through one outlet only, the state will have no equal; if it disappear through two outlets, the state will have only half the profit; but if the profit disappears through ten outlets, the state will not be preserved. If penalties are clear, there will be great control, but if they are not clear, there will be the six parasites. If the six kinds of parasites come together, then the people are not fit for employment. Therefore, in a prosperous country, when punishments are applied, the people will be closely associated with the ruler, and when rewards are applied they will reap profit. In applying punishments, light offences should be punished heavily; if light offences do not appear, heavy punishments will not come. This is said to be abolishing penalties by means of penalties, and if penalties are abolished, affairs will succeed. If crimes are serious and penalities light, penalties will appear and trouble will arise. This is said to be bringing about penalties by means of penalties, and such a state will surely be dismembered.

[Stosh]

But its not actually true as a general rule , in the real world ,  that heavy penalties for light offences eliminates the occasions of heavy offenses. Mainly because folks who do not expect to be caught , don't care what the penalty is. And for other reasons. 

It is the high certainty of punishment which deters best, not its severity. 

IMO

[dawei]

i read what you guys wrote with interest but have to hoe my row further. where were we? oh yeah...

So 3 sentences, same thing in different 3 wordings, 2 words not making sense at all. Combining the Underheaven with a geological feature does not occur anywhere else except in epigone quotations of ZZ, Wenzi and Heshanggong. These 3 authors, in their turn make a  very unconvincing attempt at rationalizing it, Therefore this locus must be a scribal error with the meaning of the entire passage forgotten early on.

 

Luckily this expression was preserved in 'Confucian' literature as a standard combo 為天下名士顯人 'to become or made into famous and illustrious men of the Underheaven'.

 

the nonsensical creek  谿 is actually a scribal error for illustrious  顯 , while the incongruous bath 浴 is an error for famous 名.

 

 

 

可笑！3 000 years of pontification about creeks and ravines all because the Taoists have not done their Confucian homework. 

 

The scribal error is possible given that MWD-A has 谿 (creek) and MWD-B has 雞 (fowl)...  but something feels out of kilter with these substitutions away from creek and valley stream when the latter two cast very similar pictures.

 

What interests me is another issue and whether it provides any clue:

 

Why was the original order of the three line sets as found in the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Beida changed in later versions?

 

Original order: Creek, Stream, Order/model/cosmograph

Received order: Creek, Order/model/cosmograph, Stream

 

I wonder if the original order is supposed to follow line 1:

Male > Female

Creek > Stream > Order/model cosmograph

 

Meaning:

Male = Creek

Female = Stream (same character used in ch. 6 for female=valley stream)

 

Where the last line set is ordering of all the above. 

[Stosh]

Could the water references be poetic modifiers of the condition of the underheaven ? 

 

Im seeing a bath as being a settled condition , and the creek  the condition of dynamic equilibrium.

which fits 

Since the de of the creek is  'not deviated from' ,

whereas the de of the bath or valley is 'not incomplete'

 

a bit of wordplay in writing?

Edited April 23, 2015 by Stosh

[dust]

here qi 器 is a contraction of a standard combo 名器 title and privileges

 

Maybe. I had considered 名器. But 器 is used many times in the Laozi as "utensil" or "talent"... why would we suddenly be talking about titles and privileges? And what does this have to do with the 朴 uncarved block?

 

Why is such a very Daoist idea 朴 being combined with such a Confucian one 名器 ?

 

 

is a combo again not a one head official but 'the top officials'. Pls recall 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous" above

 

官长 could be one or many officials...what difference does it make, really?

 

 

da zhi is a specific term for the whole juridical-penal system. Pls cf, the keywords

 

重刑明大制，不明者，六蝨也

 

If penalties are clear, there will be great control, but if they are not clear, there will be the six parasites.

 

"Great control" I can accept, but... let's be careful about associating this fairly insane passage from the Hanfeizi with the Laozi. We're now mixing Legalist ideas in with the Confucian ones that already don't really fit with the Daoist ones...?

 

 

 

The scribal error is possible given that MWD-A has 谿 (creek) and MWD-B has 雞 (fowl)...  but something feels out of kilter with these substitutions away from creek and valley stream when the latter two cast very similar pictures.

 

Yeah, it doesn't feel right..

 

 

What interests me is another issue and whether it provides any clue:

 

Why was the original order of the three line sets as found in the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Beida changed in later versions?

 

Original order: Creek, Stream, Order/model/cosmograph

Received order: Creek, Order/model/cosmograph, Stream

 

I wonder if the original order is supposed to follow line 1:

Male > Female

Creek > Stream > Order/model cosmograph

 

Meaning:

Male = Creek

Female = Stream (same character used in ch. 6 for female=valley stream)

 

Where the last line set is ordering of all the above. 

 

Well I feel like pointing out that a creek is a stream...!

 

How do we differentiate between xi and gu?

 

溪 xi   brook, creek, stream, valley stream, gully

谷 gu  valley, valley stream, pool, paddy

 

Translating 谷 as valley, a V-shaped area, would give a representation of the female

Translating 溪 as a small river, or even the stream of the valley, might give a representation of the male?

Edited April 23, 2015 by dustybeijing

[dust]

Im seeing a bath as being a settled condition , and the creek  the condition of dynamic equilibrium.

which fits 

Since the de of the creek is  'not deviated from' ,

whereas the de of the bath or valley is 'not incomplete'

 

a bit of wordplay in writing?

 

I don't think we're talking about baths. Some have translated as bath, but as I suggested above,

 

溪 xi   brook, creek, stream, valley stream, gully

谷 gu  valley, valley stream, pool, paddy

 

The Guodian and Mawangdui both use 浴 as valley, e.g.

 

江海所以為百浴王        The rivers and oceans are lords of the hundred valleys

 

In fact, in the Guodian, 谷 (valley) is used as "desire" and 浴 (bath) is used as valley, so...yeah...

 

We might be talking about chickens though, if we consider the Mawangdui:

 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下溪。為天下溪，恆德不雞

Know the male, protect the female, be the brook of the world. Being the brook of the world, De will never chicken

 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下鷄。為天下鷄，恆德不離

Know the male, protect the female, be the chicken of the world. Being the chicken of the world, De will never leave

[Taoist Texts]

The scribal error is possible given that MWD-A has 谿 (creek) and MWD-B has 雞 (fowl)..

also 武 vs 式 vs 牧

.  but something feels out of kilter with these substitutions away from creek and valley stream when the latter two cast very similar pictures.

yes its a valid counterargument to my theory, i accept that

[Taoist Texts]

Maybe. I had considered 名器. But 器 is used many times in the Laozi as "utensil" or "talent"... why would we suddenly be talking about titles and privileges?

because its a governing manual. for governing you gotta recruit talent and give them titles with all the trimmings

 

And what does this have to do with the 朴 uncarved block?

the last line is a word play or rather a metaphor play. "As the utensils are carved out of an uncarved block' similarly suitable talent could be recruited when the country has been returned to the condition of the uncarved block.. Thats how the sages do it."

Why is such a very Daoist idea 朴 being combined with such a Confucian one 名器 ?

Well one of the reasons why i consider the Lao/Kun split an artificial one is that pu was inherently a Confucian concept

 

The Grand soup is unseasoned,-in honour of its simplicity. The Grand symbols of jade have no engraving on them, in admiration of their simple plainness. There is the beauty of the red varnish and carved border (of a carriage), but (the king) rides in a plain one, doing honour to its plainness. In all these things it is simply the idea of the simplicity that is the occasion of the preference and honour.

 

官长 could be one or many officials...what difference does it make, really?

for governing you need many officials not just one. also this passage is often translated as 'the sage becomes a top official" but he cant become many, if you know what i mean.

"Great control" I can accept, but... let's be careful about associating this fairly insane passage from the Hanfeizi with the Laozi. We're now mixing Legalist ideas in with the Confucian ones that already don't really fit with the Daoist ones...?

not just 'great control' but also 'dismemberment'. in my next post i will try to demonstrate that these pairs of opposit are actually coming from legalism (which to me and some modern scholars is daoism)

 

Well I feel like pointing out that a creek is a stream...!

 

exactly thats why the repetition of it doesnt make sense

[Taoist Texts]

What interests me is another issue and whether it provides any clue:

 

Why was the original order of the three line sets as found in the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Beida changed in later versions?

thats a great question and i think i have the answer, I would suggest that these are 3 iterations to bring the country into the ideal condition: a newborn-> the limitless-> the uncarved block.

[dawei]

Translating 谷 as valley, a V-shaped area, would give a representation of the female

Translating 溪 as a small river, or even the stream of the valley, might give a representation of the male?

 

Yes... that is what I generally meant by association.  The valley has other references to being female...

 

So it might be trying to say:

 

Know the male but hold to the female [principle]

 

Know the stream but hold to the valley waters [as the source]

[dawei]

thats a great question and i think i have the answer, I would suggest that these are 3 iterations to bring the country into the ideal condition: a newborn-> the limitless-> the uncarved block.

 

I do agree that these 3 iterations needs to be considered... 

 

male = stream = newborn

female = valley waters = uncarved block

The Unity of duality = cosmograph / order / model = limitless (Dao)

 

I think this is a little forced 

[Marblehead]

And I still don't like seeing "male" and "female" when we are talking about Yang and Yin.  Better, I think, "masculine" and "feminine".

 

But yes, Yang is the stream that flows through the valley of Yin.  And my "Spirit of the Valley" is hanging out around there somewhere.

[Stosh]

I do agree that these 3 iterations needs to be considered... 

 

male = stream = newborn

female = valley waters = uncarved block

The Unity of duality = cosmograph / order / model = limitless (Dao)

 

I think this is a little forced 

I go with

the block , being symbolic of state and social functions 

the newborn , symbolic of the individual ,  

the limitless , symbolic of the the cosmos

 

SO the iterations would be suggesting the validity of the point on several levels ,

even if the main interest of the one asking for the advice is function of the state. 

 

Which frees up the yin and yang of it to be the spectrum from , unconsolidated , free , peaceful prosperity--- trending to--- warlike, expensive, constrained , highly organized state

Edited April 23, 2015 by Stosh