Thoughts on vegetarianism?

[SFJane]

And for everyone's information "SAD" is an acronym for "Standard American Diet" It's used alot in the alternative med world. Just thought i'd clarify that so certain people don't interpret it incorrectly *cough* *cough* JANE *cough*, lol.

 

That's fine. You learn new things every day. I'll edit my post in a bit for stupidity. It really won't take away from my main points. I'll get on your points in a moment.

[SFJane]

--So the point about an omnivorous diet being the "natural" diet for man goes to shit. Because it sin't "natural" it's only what the majority of humans have been doing for the past many years.

 

What kind of self-contradicting bs is that? Is it natural—or isn't it? Are you trying to tear down on assumption--an observation really--about our own biology and food needs—by attacking it as 'traditional'?

 

--However natural doesn't mean most beneficial for your goals.

 

Ah..it's about goals then.

 

--Which is actually a good time to say this. If you're not trying to cultivate compassion and attain enlightenment, liberation from the 3 realms and 5 elements then vegetarianism probably wouldn't apply. Again it only seems to be a requisite (TEMPORARY requisite at that) for schools that which to attain the above. If this is not your goal the this doesn't apply to you. Moving on...

 

I see. Okay. If you recall, the original topic heading that you started here on TBB was. “Thoughts on vegetarianism—in regards to spirituality. Nowww you tell us—after three pages—that the topic is officially about vegetarianism—for those doing the compliberlightenment thing with the realms and elements. Are you going to move the goal post again before this topic is done? I'd like to know please.

 

--Understanding that nature is transient allows you to take responsibility for your actions and not just blame things on "heredity" or "well everyone else does it".

 

Really? That is profound. I never knew that.

 

--Knowing that you're not limited by what others do, that you can be anything you want is very empowering and allows you to really face yourself.

 

Powerful words from someone who clearly must know—I mean—I don't really know anything about facing myself and not blaming heredity.

 

--In regards to sitting and meditating it means dick. Anyone can meditate, meditation is just calming the mind. It's through life's challenges that we cultivate character.

 

How did I ever miss what a sage you are? Apparently my meditation knowledge is shit. Any chance you can be my new teacher?

 

--The goal should be to reach such a state of concentration that every day life becomes meditation.

 

Nod.

 

--it's just most people can't focus that well so we start with sitting quietly.

 

I get it. You are so right.

 

--The point is to cultivate LASTING pleasure and forgo temporary pleasures.

 

Lasting pleasure? I thought all things like sensory inputs, sensations—were ultimately temporary. To place value on the temporary and transient, like sensations or emotions—is that wise?

 

--Masturbation only lasts how long? What if you became celebate for awhile, built up your sex energy, learned to transmit it into chi, then shen and learned to have multiple full body orgasms at will?

 

Multiple orgasms even? At will? Can you do this?

 

--and in addition maybe you learn to heal and help others. Much better than simple masturbation.

 

Healing and helping others is a better investment of your energy than simple masturbation—did I get that right?

 

-- it's just tha wwe live in a culture of "quick fixes" and "fleeting pleasure" which isn't bad in and of itself but if it stops you from attaining lasting pleasure or distracts you from your greater goals then it becomes a problem.

 

I see.

 

--I believe we are human because we either chose to be or past life karma allowed us to be. Thats a belief. I have no objective empirical evidence to support this belief.

 

I don't doubt that at all. The part about the evidence.

 

--Purpose is created in the mind and projected upon the world around us. Nothing has meaning, it's we that define meaning for ourselves.

 

How did you learn all this? You co-wrote some of the scripts in the movie 'the Matrix' didn't you?

 

--I used intellect so support our ability to determine what path works for what goals.

 

Ah...I see now.

 

--Nice try, but twisting my words is only going to make you look silly. ----Idk how you planned to link observant advise and muslim extremism, but...well nice try, LOL. No I don't believe in forcing people to pick what you feel is best, however i do believe in sharing your observations and wisdom with others so they can make a well informed choice. Of course they may already know what you have to say, but it's always better to make sure

 

Yea, you got me. I mean--who could possibly interpret this the wrong way?

and we can define whats best for us and through communication and observation wats best for others too.

 

--Don't concern yourself with what you cannot percieve, just keep raising your awareness and see what you find.

 

Roger that. I'll get right on that boss.

 

--Well as I stated before vegetarianism seems only to be a practice for those who seek to be liberated, or get an experience that makes them believe they're liberated. If you're not trying to do this then i'm not quite sure why you're here arguing against it. It' OBVIOUSLY not for you, lol. So don't even try.

 

I've already tried though. It wasn't for me.

 

--Transcendentalism is going beyond your current restraints. For example humans cannot live without food and water. For most people this is true but there are those who have learned to do it. Therefore they have transcended the need to eat. There's alot of limitations we have as humans, not all are bad. For those who want to do great things however, it's better to be able to transcend beyond what most people believe is possible. When I say transcending biology that would fall under immortality, not having to eat or sleep, pretty much being the master of your body instead of a passive observer of the body.

 

Have you transcended any thing in your life yet? If so—how so? I happen to know a thing or two about overcoming (or transcending, if you like) limitations--that is why I ask.

 

--The point is that vegetarianism seems to be a stepping stone into transcending the need for food altogether. Idk if the vibrational theories are true, but i believe if karma is real then it would have an effect on us for the better.

 

You are taking this all on faith then? Have you tested to see if it's true?

 

--As for looking to what others are doing, yes I look to what others have done so I have a method. Tell me would you like to try to do chi-kung without ever seeing anyone else or studying with anyone else? How about you just move your arms and legs around and just see what happens I'll stick with the tried and true.

 

What does any of that have to do with vegetarianism and spirituality? Are we talking about chi gung now? I only mentioned it—because you said-- “you become what you imitate” and I wanted to know if that applied to chi gung as well as say—vegetarianism.

 

--Whatever gets me closer to my goals. I'm not trying to feed sum superiority complex. If there were more of the people i'm trying to be then I wouldn't be concerned with trying to be anything. Relaying information i've heard of a said topic i believe is useful. I think one should be as informed as possible before making choices.

 

Seems to me like that Ratahum guy with the big pineal really impressed you.

 

--What i'm saying is that people are often unwilling to change their habbits to experience/experiment with another side of something. If one is comfortable doing what they're doing then they'll use any excuse justifying not changing what is comfortable for what may be more efficient. For example. Sugar is very comforting. Alot of people like sugar but all is does is fuck you up. However alot of people will justify eating shit with no nutritional value and a bitch ton of sugar. "Oh soda is soo good, i'd never give it up for better health. The bubbles are just more worth it then health." That kinda nonsense.

 

But... what if someone...someone like me...did try vegetarianism—and found it wanting? I was willing to give up the comfort of the known for the un-comfort of the unknown, but I couldn't see/sense/feel that it gave me more power to dissolve, to circulate energy, do to fa jin or to heal—which--along with my interests in cultivation—have a little something to do with the topic—spirituality.

 

My primary teacher--well the guy I learned most of my nei gung and meditation stuff from--isn't a vegetarian either. No one who has felt his hands disputes how much juice he can project.

 

--Or fasting (being a more extreme example), people who want to fast for whatever reason often have a hard time dealing with the uncomfort...and thats fine, but they should keep complaining about how they need to fast and all this nonsense or how fasting is "bad" just because they failed at being able to handle the stress of it.

 

Myself, I've done plenty of fasting. I did my first week-long fast when I was fifteen—under supervision of a nurse.

Edited August 22, 2010 by SFJane

[Astral_Anima]

Jane, this is cute. I mean all these one liners . Making fun of people is so much more fun than making points isn't it? Cause thats what this is all about

 

Clearly spirituality needs to be defined. POWER and ALIGNMENT are not one in the same. John Chang smokes and drinks and eats meat, doesn't mean I think any less of him, he's one bad mofo, very powerful if what he claims to do is true. HOWEVER, power doesn't mean anything in terms of what kind of person you are. "good" people have power and so do "bad" people. (i hate subjective terms like this, but just use their traditional meanings for now). If spirituality is the attainment of power then lets agree, if it's the attainment of "good nature" lets agree, but clearly we should define this and then make a new post so this never happens again, lol.

 

--edit-- Had to throw this in. I know your going to make an ass of yourself and say "oh now your saying john chang is "bad" cause he drinks and smokes and eats meat". As a preemptive counter to save you any further embarassment, no this is not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that his lifestyle is very "ordinary" yet he is still in attainment of many powers. The point is that you don't have to be a saint to have power, u just have to be a saint to use your power without hurting others or yourself.

 

--Ah..it's about goals then.--

 

Yes. It all depends on what you want to do. If one is trying to kill everything living thing on the planet, who's to say following compassion or religion or anything is right for them?

 

--How did I ever miss what a sage you are? Apparently my meditation knowledge is shit. Any chance you can be my new teacher?--

 

Again you take snips of my sentances without looking at the context. notice when you add the small snip you singled out and add the sentance RIGHT after it "It's through life's challenges that we cultivate character", you can see i'm saying meditation doesn't mean dick in regards to cultivating character. When I say "anyone can meditate" i mean it doesn't matter if you meditate you can still be a mocking prideful douchbag

 

--Lasting pleasure? I thought all things like sensory inputs, sensations—were ultimately temporary. To place value on the temporary and transient, like sensations or emotions—is that wise?--

 

While it's true emotions are indeed temporary one can gain a type of "permenant"(in the sense of until you die (maybe after too, who knows)) pleasure by living up to a goal or standard or sum kind of achievement. For crude example, lets say you saved the world. You can look back on that for a LOOOOOOONG time and derive satisfaction from it. fapping?, ehhhh i don't think so

 

--Multiple orgasms even? At will? Can you do this?--

 

Does it matter if I say yes? Would you merely take my word for it? If you want to see if it's possible investigate for yourself.

 

--Healing and helping others is a better investment of your energy than simple masturbation—did I get that right?--

 

IF you're trying to cultivate character/compassion/good nature (again there's that word good...i'm just to lazy to elaborate though...again just use traditional subjective meaning for now <sigh>) then YES!

 

--Have you transcended any thing in your life yet? If so—how so? I happen to know a thing or two about overcoming (or transcending, if you like) limitations--that is why I ask.--

 

Very few in comparison to what i'd like. So far it's all mental stuff.

 

--You are taking this all on faith then? Have you tested to see if it's true?--

 

I'm in the process. Although I don't think it HAS to be, but it certainly would make things easier theoretically. (that is i don't think you HAVE to be vegetarian to go to breatharian, but it seems to help for sum to gradually work into it)

 

--What does any of that have to do with vegetarianism and spirituality? Are we talking about chi gung now? I only mentioned it—because you said-- “you become what you imitate” and I wanted to know if that applied to chi gung as well as say—vegetarianism.--

 

Uggghhhh, you stated in your very own post

You do seem awfully concerned with the finer details of the spiritual practices that others are doing.

And i responded with

As for looking to what others are doing, yes I look to what others have done so I have a method. Tell me would you like to try to do chi-kung without ever seeing anyone else or studying with anyone else? How about you just move your arms and legs around and just see what happens I'll stick with the tried and true.

. That is the relevance. You made a statment which inquired as to why i look to others for guidance instead of being the Captain Maverik Sara Palin you apparently are (haha, see i can be immature too ).

 

As for all the little one line humorous mockeries that fail to make any point or rebuttle other than you disagree and you REALLY like showing it...i'll just leave that as an identification of your character for everyone else to see

Edited August 22, 2010 by Astral_Anima

[goldisheavy]

Hey all,

Vegetarianism seems to be a common "requisite" for many spiritual traditions. Certain Buddhists, the Essenes, Hinduism, Certain Yogis, holders of the Light and Sound Meditation, etc. I was just reading this article...

 

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/essays/veg.asp

 

...which makes a few interesting points about spiritual life in general. Thought it'd be fun to share. Love to hear sum opinions on this since it's still a rather controversial topic.

 

-Astral

 

I tried to be a vegetarian, but in the end, being a vegetarian has disturbed my mind rather than pacified it, and there were other problems. The reason my mind was disturbed is that every meal I had to take special steps and make special considerations. I had to check if there was a presence of meat or not, and I had to look for things to order that didn't contain meat, which is a pain in the ass. This would be less of a problem if I cooked at home, but I don't, and I consider cooking a big waste of time most of the times, because I don't love the process of cooking enough. I enjoy cooking but not enough to do it every day. So to summarize the point in this paragraph, my mind was disturbed enough that switching to a vegetarian lifestyle has made me miserable, and I had to stop it.

 

Plus, there was a bigger problem. The bigger problem I have is that, we as people, have a long way to go learning to treat each other better. Just like I laugh at someone who saves a penny and wastes a dollar (penny wise, dollar foolish), I also laugh at myself when I try to save an animal while relatively speaking participating in wasting the lives of countless humans. So I need to worry about the state of humanity first and foremost. When we can clean that up, I can focus on other animals next. Hitler was a vegetarian, for example.

 

I respect vegetarians though, and as long as they don't annoy me or try to appear as holier than though, I believe their arguments have some merit. I also think that farms that produce meat can be improved and can be run more ethically before all of us switch to a vegetarian lifestyle.

 

That said, I think in some future life I will probably become a vegetarian.

Edited August 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Brian]

...

[Ramon25]

What is so damn spirirual about foregoing food all together? What is Lasting pleasure? A constatnt state of bliss? With no outside influence? damn that would really suck. again I guess its the denying the body thing, I hope that falls in line with your goals. If it even is possible to have lasting pleasure. How about eing fullfilled with life? thats more doable, more intergrated. no offense, but becoming Libarted has always seemed like pretty selfish and cowardly, no? You know kind of like running away from anything difficult and not wanting to expirience it again? I mean thats all well and good and we should probably learn to live our lives that way, But "libaration" is kind of extreme huh?

[Sahaj Nath]

good discussion!

 

 

i'm pretty much in agreement with SFJane and YaMu. and given their respective levels of energetic development, i would say that i am in pretty good company.

 

 

ESPECIALLY if you have an awakened Kundalini and you're trying to function in society, few can do that on a constant vegetarian diet. i certainly could not. in the earlier stages of the process there was just no way i could have gone without meat.

 

i think guru g and her students are really straight-forward in this video, so i thought i'd share it. when there is a conflict in my practice of... life, my default is ALWAYS to keep to the natural flow of things. and i found meat eating to be quite natural for me, and crucial in keeping my health and sanity at one point.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wKWvLSZ72U

 

there are two other videos, but the sentiment that gets across in this first one is sufficient to make the point.

 

 

i know there are other folks here with awakened kundalini as well. i'd be interested in knowing their experience with this.

 

btw, i should probably mention that i was a vegetarian for 3 years. i didn't feel weak or diminished in any way. Until Big K decided she had other plans for me. my nervous system needed meat. i wasn't really allowed to have an opinion about it. but that was my experience.

 

 

EDIT:

 

the second part is pretty good, too.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukcb3M2fFso&feature=related

Edited August 22, 2010 by Hundun

[Astral_Anima]

What is so damn spirirual about foregoing food all together? What is Lasting pleasure? A constatnt state of bliss? With no outside influence? damn that would really suck. again I guess its the denying the body thing, I hope that falls in line with your goals. If it even is possible to have lasting pleasure. How about eing fullfilled with life? thats more doable, more intergrated. no offense, but becoming Libarted has always seemed like pretty selfish and cowardly, no? You know kind of like running away from anything difficult and not wanting to expirience it again? I mean thats all well and good and we should probably learn to live our lives that way, But "libaration" is kind of extreme huh?

 

Hey Ramon25,

-- Foregoing food allows you body to heal on the level of fasting but without the pain of hunger (that is bigu, or sungazing), it makes you more aware, more alert, you tend to sleep ALOT less, and you tend to have alot more energy (or so the story goes). Alot of us spend a good portion of our time just surviving. I'd like to spend more time helping people. However I can't help anyone if I can't help myself . Another reasons comes from the Jains who respect ALL life. They don't even like the idea of eating vegetables, i'm pretty sure they only eat fruits and maybe sumthing else, i'll have to double check.

--Lasting pleasure is the kind that comes from inside and doesn't leave.

--If you are fulfilled then don't change anything.

--Becoming Liberated isn't running away, it's being free (thus the definition of the term ). Running away would be attaining liberation then killing yourself or going to a mountain and spending the rest of your life meditating. Perhaps I should throw you into a dark smelly pit with nothing but a bucket and the occasional diseased rat, then give you a latter out and tell you not to take it or you're running away

--and yes i'm an extremist and no i'm not trying to force my extremism on someone. But apparently my sharing a diff side of the story has gotten SUM people *cough* *cough JANE *cough* quite Irate. Almost as if me even bringing this up is an attack on their lifestyle, which it isn't.

 

Goldisheavy- I can respect where you're coming from. Humans should indeed be treating humans MUCH better. Whether we start with animals then go to human or start with human then go to animals is probably irrelevant (maybe i'm wrong), However you're right to bring up that focus, thats it's not just animals it's compassion to living things in general.

 

Also you're right in the sense that it's hard to consider thiongs on a large scale. As a vegetarian I had to question whether the soup broth had chick-base, if the frech fries were fried in beef fat, if meat was put in the tomato sauce thats covering my pasta. I eventaully just chose to get my own food and not eat out or let other prepare stuff 4 me. I pretty much just eat fruit now. But I definately understand where you're coming from. Since it's not a cultural thing (especially in the US) it's hard to find reliable sources and support for vegetarianism.

[Astral_Anima]

Hundun- Good imput, I hadn't even considered the case of Kundalini. However I do have to question whether what they were experiencing was a "good' thing or not. For example...the "Shakes". They saw the shaking as bad, however in Kunlun the shaking is supposed to be the PURIFYING of the nerves and body...and isn't that what kundalini is supposed to do? Also when people the people said they ate meat they felt it going "down". It IS supposed to go down, but it's supposed to go down the front channel. In Kunlun the energy is raised, the "blissful heat" is raised up, but then you let it flow down the front, not eat something to put the energy back in your lower chakras. Honestly it just seems these people didn't know how to let the kundalini do wat it's supposed to do. Perhaps one NEEDS to get out of society for awhile if they choose to awaken kundalini. I wont deny that you're nerves will probably get sum heat (pardon the pun) however i'd like to bring up the subject of detox.

 

In physical detox usually one deals with sum very uncomfortable feelings before the inherent "cause" is removed. For example many people who do long term fasts, if they've had any broken bones, will experience pain in that area for awhile. People will suffer headaches from taxins being released in the bloodstream (or so the theory goes). In emotional detox you may re-experience some painful emotions from the past, perhaps traumatic stuff will resurface.

 

In any case eating meat which seemly just forces the energy back down into the lower chakras, doesn't seem to be the answer, especially if you become dependant on eating meat to keep the energy down. It seems to me like these people just don't know how to let kundalini do it's thing. Perhaps lerning kunlun would help, lol.

 

Oh and for the record, i'm kinda pro-kunlun now. After reading the book and a few more experiences i think i better understand it.

 

--edit--

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/shamanism.html

 

For those without the time or too lazy to read, here's a paragraph...

 

The answer is clearly yes. Shamans are not alone in becoming better after a psychological disturbance. Over 2,000 years ago Socrates declared that "our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift." (Lukoff, 1985) More recently the eminent psychiatrist Karl Menninger observed that "some patients have a mental illness and then they get weller! I mean they get better than they ever were....This is an extraordinary and little realized truth."(Lukoff, 1985)

 

Fortunately, it is becoming better recognized. Responses to stress can span a spectrum from regression to growth. This spectrum extends from pathological regression (at the negative extreme) to resilience (continued normal functioning) and even to posttraumatic growth (also known as stress-related growth, positive adaptation, and thriving).(Linley & Joseph, 2005)

Edited August 22, 2010 by Astral_Anima

[metal dog]

This weekend metal dog made some of his nutrient dense meat cake.

 

I make a large amount and freeze some for the next six months supply.

I eat this meat cake once a week, but not primarily for epicurean reasons, but as a nutrient dense addition to my diet from real food...rather than any kind of protein powders or commercial supplements. But I do find it is delicious.

 

I take a huge amount of beef bones (beef marrow, knuckle bones, meaty rib and neck bones, and one calves foot)and place in a large stock pot and cover with cold water. I add 1/4 cup of organic unfiltered apple cider vinegar to the pot and let the bones sit for an hour in the vinegar and water (this begins to leach the minerals out of the bones). I add 3 each of chopped onions, celery stalks and carrots. Bring this to a boil and then simmer while skimming off any scum that rises to the top of the water. I then add some fresh thyme from my herb garden and some crushed dried green peppercorns.

I let this simmer anywhere from 12 to 72 hours and reduce it down to about six cups worth of concentrated stock. And at the end add a bit of fresh chopped parsley from my garden to finish it off.

 

The result is a white liquid with a yellow type of fat floating on the surface...what I call..."The Medicine".

 

The stock contains the minerals of the bone, cartilage, marrow such as calcium, magnesium and potassium.

This stock adds hydrophilic colloids, gelatin and a very healthy fat to the diet.

 

I then take this stock and use it to cook three cups of organic whole grain brown rice. And I set this aside.

 

I then take some beef (or sheep) heart, kidney and liver and cut it up into small pieces. Place in a glass dish and cover with the juice of three lemons and a little water. Let these diced organ meats sit in the lemon juice for 24 hours. As this will clean the organ meats and make them tastier with a good texture. Strain out the juice and grind the organ meats in a blender or food processor into a paste.

 

I then add this past to some quality ground beef. All the meat I buy comes from free-range, pasture fed, healthy cows. I mix 30% organ meats with 70% ground beef. I then add the cooked brown rice to the meat and organ mixture.

 

I then saute' six each of finely chopped carrots, celery stalks and onions in butter and add some black pepper, salt, fresh thyme, basil, oregano and dried hot chili pepper flakes.

 

I add the cooked veggies to the meat, organ meat and rice mixture.

Add six eggs and a cup of whole cream to the mixture and stir it up well.

 

This makes about 25-30 pounds of meat cake.

I then break it down into separate loaves and bake each meat cake at 350 for about 90 minutes each in a glass dish with a little water added around the meatcake to keep it moist while it cooks. 15 minutes before it is finished I top it with a mixture of tomato paste and a little organic maple syrup (just to sweeten it a bit, much better than a ketchup).

 

The rest of the meat cakes I bake up, slice and freeze. This amount will last many months to come. It is a convenience food as well and only take a short time to reheat. I never give myself the excuse to buy some processed crap from the store, especially time constraints.

 

A nutrient dense item suitable for a dog like myself.

 

My Kundalini thanks me and The Ancient High Ones would be most proud.

[passenger1980]

I've read a lot of non-sense in this thread.

 

First, Hitler was not a vegetarian, it's a myth, and if he was, good for him. The truth is that he just loved animals, that's it. Second, vegetarians don't hate plants, most of us actually love "nature". You can't be just carnivore and don't eat plants, but vegetarians try to do the least damage possibly while being alive. Do you people take into account how much plants your animal needs to eat before being butchered?. Also a pig is more intelligent than a dog actually, not that if matters anyway though, but i certainly can't see a major difference in slaughter a pig and a human baby if you ask me. Is it better to slaughter a pig because it is from another species?...i relate more to the human baby of course, but like many of you said, that is a construction of the mind right?

 

To summarize, vegetarianism should be about compassion and nothing else, for both plants and animals if you want, but you clearly not need meat to survive or thrive (look at how many noble persons and athletes were/are vegetarians). Your will is stronger than all your mind tricks, if you truly want to become a vegetarian, you can. Meat does taste good, and i understand how meat eaters can't let go of that. But there wouldn't be any arguments here if meat wasn't as tasteful as it is. That's the bottomline.

 

Morality plays a huge part in the spiritual life and path.

[The Observer]

I don't know how relevant this is but I've been a full time vegetarian for a few months now and it's helped me lose something like 50 pounds, which is alright considering I was a bit overweight before.

[Ramon25]

good discussion!

 

 

i'm pretty much in agreement with SFJane and YaMu. and given their respective levels of energetic development, i would say that i am in pretty good company.

 

 

ESPECIALLY if you have an awakened Kundalini and you're trying to function in society, few can do that on a constant vegetarian diet. i certainly could not. in the earlier stages of the process there was just no way i could have gone without meat.

 

i think guru g and her students are really straight-forward in this video, so i thought i'd share it. when there is a conflict in my practice of... life, my default is ALWAYS to keep to the natural flow of things. and i found meat eating to be quite natural for me, and crucial in keeping my health and sanity at one point.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wKWvLSZ72U

 

there are two other videos, but the sentiment that gets across in this first one is sufficient to make the point.

 

 

i know there are other folks here with awakened kundalini as well. i'd be interested in knowing their experience with this.

 

btw, i should probably mention that i was a vegetarian for 3 years. i didn't feel weak or diminished in any way. Until Big K decided she had other plans for me. my nervous system needed meat. i wasn't really allowed to have an opinion about it. but that was my experience.

 

 

EDIT:

 

the second part is pretty good, too.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukcb3M2fFso&feature=related

 

Im not sure if you missed my post? I also have an awakened kundalini and CANNOT function without meat, and I usually need more red meat than anything. When you have kundalini, your energy is CONSTANTLY on, the catharsis is hard to stop, so meat helps to ground, to slow the process and it allows the energy to intergrate before another balst of self insight. That has been my expeirience. Just to mention by the way, my wife is a vegatarian, she saids that its helps here connect more to her energy. So it all depends on what is needed. Also I am aware of what you meant astral by the lasting pleasure comment. What I meant is that I dont think that is easily attained and I am not sure it is real. thats all. well have different definitions of liberation.

[Brian]

...

[SFJane]

Much depend upon what the deities would prefer and what cosmic order you would like to establish in your consciousness. If you want higher energies to work through you and manifest in yourself, you need to make your body and mind suitable for their activity. If you want to keep the demons away, you need to do things that would not let them establish themselves in you and become stronger. You would not feed them with the food of their preference that would eventually over power and silence the deities.

 

I know a few places where talk like that could get you force-medicated with drugs that would quickly shut down the frontal lobe firing that you allowed to occur to come here and type it. Also--I highly doubt you personally, Astral--have any experiential knowledge with demons or deities and the cosmic order of your head. You do a lot of telling, but no real showing. You talk--but how much of this stuff have you personally experienced and lived--compared with reading it from some text? You sound like so many New Age fortune-cookie types I've encountered before.

 

I don't know why anyone here practices "spirituality" however most people seem to do it for some kind of recognition, identification or fortification of the "soul" or "spirit". Some people do it to change and live simple happy lives. Some people do it for liberation from the pathetic human condition. Either way in the traditions above if one eats meat it doesn't kill them but it slows their progress.

 

I don't think the human condition is pathetic at all. I am rather fond of my condition--frankly. And I am going to tell you right now—that eating meat or not—had nothing to do with the speed of my progress. Nothing.

 

Long time ago-- when I first got seriously into energy cultivation, I did what a lot of you have done. I read everything I could find about the nature of energy. I happened to find some Bay Area New Age magazine when I was about twenty-one that had an extensive article on 'vibrations'.

 

Now, I first learned of the vibrational quality of chi from BKF's book, 'Opening the Energy Gates of your Body' when I was fifteen years old. I continued to encounter the notion of qualities of vibration from yoga books, other books, books on healing. Books like the 600 page 'Vibrational Medicine' by Richard Gerber MD

 

I found a chart in that New Age magazine that supposedly gave a vibrational level for foods and substances. I don't have—or remember—that chart in detail. I don't remember what the unit of measurement was supposed to be either—it was some new age version of watts or volts or broadcast range. But it went kind of like this:

 

CV where CV= chi-volts or chi vibration frequency (making that part up)

 

Fresh apple off the tree 300

Week-old uncooked organic veges 250

Frozen slab of steak 150

Black coffee 120

Smoke from a cigarette 70

 

That was not—exactly--how the scale went. But the theory was:

Low vibrational=dead stuff=lacking in chi= bad mmkay.

High vibrational stuff=alive stuff=more chi=stronger super powers.

 

Real simple—right? What is your goal? Mine was to be as good as—as powerful as—I could be. So, I was super interested—nay obsessed—with making my chi go over 9000 CVs anyway I could.

 

I would set my glass of osmotic filtered water in the sun to 'charge up' with solar rays before drinking it. I would scan apples and mangoes and berries with my awareness, dissolve them with my intent and circulate energy into them—before ingesting them. To maximize on my live, hi-vibe food and substance intake needs.

 

I was so proud of myself—for doing all the right things. +1 spirituality point for going veg. +1 spirituality point for quitting smoking cold turkey. +1 spirituality point for projecting healing chi into my own food to attune myself to it and purify it energetically before I ate it. Etc.

 

Then one day, I finally became acquainted enough with one of Bruce's more senior students. We were sitting around in his apartment getting ripped off his bong. I summoned the nerve to ask this guy something I've wanted to ask Kumar myself.

 

“Hey man, what does the Big Guy eat anyway?” I expected Taoist 5 Element nutrition, dosha regulation, macrobiotics--something. Wouldn't Bruce, as a recognized martial art, chi gung healing and meditation master—want his chi to be maxed out at all times? So I eagerly awaited to hear the great secret of Bruce's diet.

 

“Bruce? He eats like a pig. He eats everything.” Well—holy slap in the face! I thought I was doing everything right. And although I heard my friend say it—I denied it. I ignored it. I was still too hung up on my vibrational chi experiments and was not willing to simply abandon the fruits and knowledge and sacrifice of all my experiments—the fasting, the juicing—all of them. Despite hearing the words that meant my favorite teacher and Taoist role model was in essence, a dietary garbage disposal--I stubbornly clung to my energy food diets. I still had to find the answers for myself. I still had to prove that this vibrational stuff mattered.

 

For years after, I didn't change a thing. I still picked my produce--'intuitively'. By palming fruits and veges and feeling/sensing/hearing/seeing it's aura. Then one day, poverty happened. I lost my job. Couldn't afford vitamins, organic food and amino acids. I couldn't pick and choose energetically correct food. I had to eat what I could afford. That meant some processed food sometimes. Ramen. Mac'N'Cheese. It meant eating produce that wasn't certified organic and pesticide free. That sort of thing. And here is what I found.

 

My body order, skin, breath, urine and stool all became a little bit more aromatic, but that was really it. My punching power was not reduced. My dissolving ability was not weakened. My healing chi worked just fine. I could do fa jin just as well as I ever could. Simply put—most of the benefits of a dead energy free/high vibe diet were in my head. I believed that it would make a difference—and so using my bias—I made heavy use of what is called 'selective thinking' and 'confirmation bias' to selectively notice and confirm that a high-vibe, organic, meat-free diet was really minmaxing my chi frequency.

 

It took me—about ten years—to personally find out for myself why Bruce can eat anything he wants, and still be a powerful Taoist master. About six months ago, I started eating pork again. After a fourteen year hiatus from it. I started with a tiny piece of bacon—about the size of a pea. I carefully monitored my chi, my dan tiens, my internal organs....nothing. No major downgrade of energy. Then I ate a one-inch slice of bacon—repeated the internal awareness and biofeedback monitoring. Again—no degradation of my abilities and senses. Then I ate a full piece of bacon. Just one. And again. No major changes.

 

Your internal amoeba-nature will tell you what you should eat if you stop telling your amoeba what it ought to be eating. There is one benefit that I find useful about going vego, fasting or juicing if you intend on doing some sitting. When you fast--your body is not wasting body chi on digestion. That is, the energy requirements needed to digest a feast of kings in your belly is considerable. That energy is taken from your body's chi-battery reserve. You will find also, that you can feel inside yourself better, when there is no food in your gut. So energy conservation, freeing up chemical digestion processes and increased internal clarity--is why I would fast for cultivation.

 

So it is that--in my humble onion--the benefits of vegetarianism relating to cultivation are largely in your mind. The only person counting +1 spirituality points for being vego and patting you on your back for doing good—is you. Buddha is not watching and smiling. If there's a G O D, he/she/it could hardly care—since the rest of creation can eat whatever. There is no virtue attached to going vego—except that which you project onto the act with your pesky over-active frontal lobe. End of line.

Edited August 23, 2010 by SFJane

[metal dog]

mmmmmmmmmmm...this...this...SFJane...I just can't read enough of her...

 

Edited August 23, 2010 by metal dog

[passenger1980]

I totally agree with you, passenger1980! I see some gotchas, though...

 

First, a minor technical correction -- it is certainly possible to live on an all-animal diet.

 

First is the damages argument. Are you saying that the criterion for food selection should be based on total biomass destroyed or by volume or by count of individual entities or cumulative energy consumed or what? This is a significant detail, I think, in establishing the framework because that same framework must then be applied to selection of which vegetation is deemed morally edible, too. Is a sunfish more moral to eat than a tuna because it converts energy into biomass more efficiently? Is a cashew less moral to consume than a bamboo shoot? Is grass more moral than an apple? What if you have to eat for 16 hours a day to get the content you need because you are eating low-energy stuff like grass?

 

Or is the criterion complexity? If so, is a slug more or less complex than a watermelon?

 

Or perhaps the criterion is intelligence or sentience? If so, we need to objectively determine the intelligence or sentience of each species (plant, animal, virus, fungus, whatever) and establish a morality scale so that people can judge their impact. Or we could just remove animals and animal products and simplify things -- except that introduces complications, too.

 

For instance, what if I start a "farm" in which I raise only brain-dead pigs, perhaps by introducing a hormone at conception that prevents brain development beyond the stem. Are those animals off-limit? What about the studies that suggest plants may sense injury, may communicate and may feel empathy (or something akin to that)? Are some plants more aware than others? If I pick a mushroom, does the entire subterranean organism suffer?

 

What about collateral damages? If I choose to cultivate some plants (or animals) at the expense of others, what is the moral calculus for that decision? If I turn a field into a vegetable patch, have I not selected a "winner" species to the detriment of others? I mean, field mice and frogs and crickets used to live in that field but I have taken it upon myself to replace them with eggplants? I thought I valued the animals more highly than the eggplant? Or is it that I value the human more than the animal? In either case, for the sake of the field mice, frogs and crickets, I need to plant that field with the crop that most densely concentrates biopotential (energy) for my consumption with the least impact on the the existing ecology, right? Well, that's the opposite of the cumulative energy consumed approach above but that's OK (the planet's energy cycle is not a sealed unit but rather comes from the sun's nuclear-powered radiation). What if, however, it turns out that a herd of cattle, eating grasses that I cannot directly consume but having little impact on the field mice, frogs and crickets, does less damage to that field's ecosystem than my planned crop of eggplants? Is it then more moral for me to eat cows or eggplants? Or should I intentionally select one species of plant at the potential extinction of several species of plants and animals?

 

We're just scratching the surface here, too. Not only is the foodstuff issue more complicated than this, but it extends far beyond just what we eat. For instance, most of the US paper-goods industry is supplied by sustainably managed pine forests (much of it here in the South) that provide extensive habitats for wildlife as well has reprocessing massive amounts of carbon dioxide into oxygen (at providing lots of jobs). The conservationist effort to "save a tree" is purely noble on face value but it becomes muddled when you realize this means replacing forests with housing developments and Wal-Marts.

 

The same sorts of complications arise when virtually any "feel-good" issue you wish to mention and, ultimately, it usually does truly boil down to what makes the individual feel good about themselves. When a significantly large percentage of the local population reaches the same decision, we say that "we" believe X or Y but that may not be universal. For instance, in the US, eating cats or dogs is generally abhorrent but that is not necessarily the case among other "local populations" and would be subject to change within our own population if the situation changed sufficiently.

 

Don't misunderstand me -- I'm not saying cavalierly destroy living things for your own pleasure or even for your own sustenance without a thought for the impact of your actions or for the origin of your materials. I certainly don't (although I think most of the world does, human or otherwise). I'm just saying the devil is in the details...

 

Well i think you are reading too much into that. Information is always good, we always need good information before making decisions. The problem is that we should not rely only on the intellect. All those questions have answers already from emotions and experience itself and not from science and the intellect.

 

A butcher certainly is supressing its compassion when killing, just as i would do, that's not good. He has to do its job and it's an ugly one. There is fear in the animal, blood, violence, death. The butcher himself experience emotions that disturb the mind. All these are not present when you pick an apple from a tree, at least if you do it carefully. So it's about the experience itself, that's where the answer lies. My example of the human baby or the pig, is not about who is more important or more valuable. To the universe, they are basically the same, the problem is that our mind reacts different to the killing of each of them. That's where morality comes into play.

 

I think we all agree that plants and vegetable life are live beings and should be respected, and they are as important as animals, we all have a place in this planet and we couldn't survive without them. So, if tomorrow science would say that plants do actually feel (i doubt they would feel the same way as animals though) i would still be a vegetarian, because it doesn't change anything. My compassion is not less for plants because i don't eat animals, i can't live without plants, if i could i would.

 

Also if you check the health food pyramid, meat products are a small % in our optimal diet, so being a 100% carnivore may not kill you but it won't be healthy at all in my opinion, as opposed to a vegetarian diet.

 

All your points are certainly valid ones, thinking about all things we consume and use is great, but you'll always lose that battle, you will always do some harm. I am aware that plenty of the vegetables i consume involves the killing of million of insects for example. But the bottomline should be that living a simple life, without much wasting and crazy consumption will benefit us all. Rocks, trees, plants, animals and humans!

[Guest paul walter]

I am intrigued -- to what blood type or metabolic type tests are you referring?

 

Not quite sure what "sword" you are talking about, actually. If I were presented with evidence even strongly suggesting that homo sapiens was not omnivorous, I would probably become a herbivore. <shrug> All that I've seen, however, suggests the opposite.

 

My teeth, the position of my eyes, the design of my stomach, the length of my intestines, my digestive enzymes, my flora & fauna, my chemistry -- all indicate that my biological machine runs on a diet that includes animal. Cows & rabbits? Not so much. My dog thinks he's an omnivore too, by the way.

 

As to my use of the words "personally", "think" and "suggests" -- I guess I was speaking Southern. I would suggest that you think about that, personally.

 

 

 

Hi A Seeker. The sword is simply who we think we are at any given moment i.e. meat eater, vegetarian,etc etc.

For the 'types' hypothsis see Metabolictyping.com and the other sites that deal with it- some give questionairres to fill out to determin your 'type'. The blood thing is just the old Peter D'Adamo Eat Right for Your Type thingy. The D'Adamo idea has largely been superseded by developments in directions such as that of metabolic typing. Also see Agartha's posts dealing with diet on other threads 'dealing' with the vego question. Paul

[Guest paul walter]

It's all about cultivating moral correctness and collecting bonus +1 spirituality points to club over other people's head with isn't it? Self-congratulatory pride. That is what you are cultivating in your heart-mind. Your words indicate that you are not cultivating stillness or magnanimity, inclusion or acceptance.

 

Edited for earlier silliness.

 

No, Jane (or SF?)I 'm actually not like that. I'm not your average vegan either--e.g. it came 'naturally' to me as part of 'spirit' evolution (didn't know what "vegan" was/didn't know any vegans til years later/wasn't influenced by literature/ persuasion etc(unless one counts the TTC ); didn't get into animal rights etc; have always worshipped plants not animals (gratitude/relationship); don't believe in animal rights (or any rights for that matter--they're only needed when there is no respect/freedom/self-regulation). I'll PM you with some more comments about previous post to me cause I think it's more honest 'one on one'. P.S. still recovering from a Dawkins doco on 'alternative' health that was on the other night: The Enemies of Reason Part 2- The Irrational Health Service ...no surprises there, he's the Penn and Teller of Rationality (of course it would help if he didn't go for the clinically insane practitioners most of the time and actually showed an interest in results based medicine). Paul

[Gerard]

I haven't checked out this thread but let me add something to the discussion: spiritual realisation goes beyond sex (not the topic of discussion) and meat consumption.

[Guest paul walter]

I tried to be a vegetarian, but in the end, being a vegetarian has disturbed my mind rather than pacified it, and there were other problems. The reason my mind was disturbed is that every meal I had to take special steps and make special considerations. I had to check if there was a presence of meat or not, and I had to look for things to order that didn't contain meat, which is a pain in the ass. This would be less of a problem if I cooked at home, but I don't, and I consider cooking a big waste of time most of the times, because I don't love the process of cooking enough. I enjoy cooking but not enough to do it every day. So to summarize the point in this paragraph, my mind was disturbed enough that switching to a vegetarian lifestyle has made me miserable, and I had to stop it.

 

 

Yeah but Gold, this is just like saying my society is the standard by which I measure my 'potential'/goal. Believe me, after the first 20 years you get used to the rigours of looking under the salad leaves for bacon bits . I suppose it's like any othe 'practice'--if you would like to try to see what it has to offer and you give up from annoyance/convenience then it doesn't really say anything about vegetarianism but about the vegetarianee. So I suppose I'm asking why post this when it has nothing to do with diet as such. Paul

[Guest paul walter]

What is so damn spirirual about foregoing food all together? What is Lasting pleasure? A constatnt state of bliss? With no outside influence? damn that would really suck. again I guess its the denying the body thing, I hope that falls in line with your goals. If it even is possible to have lasting pleasure. How about eing fullfilled with life? thats more doable, more intergrated. no offense, but becoming Libarted has always seemed like pretty selfish and cowardly, no? You know kind of like running away from anything difficult and not wanting to expirience it again? I mean thats all well and good and we should probably learn to live our lives that way, But "libaration" is kind of extreme huh?

 

 

You're on the wrong side of the fence (and proud of it?) to understand the concepts you're dealing with here Ramon:"bliss", "lasting pleasure", "outside influence". It's not like that. Being bored and in constant need of stimulation to assuage that boredom is a problem not a 'virtue' (can't you feel that?). The irony is of course "lasting pleasure"/ "fulfilled with life" can only start to become real concepts the more you take away the world you are positing. But since that is in no way a part of the cultures we live in then who's to know? Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

good discussion!

 

 

i'm pretty much in agreement with SFJane and YaMu. and given their respective levels of energetic development, i would say that i am in pretty good company.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukcb3M2fFso&feature=related

 

 

Except this thread and the whole vego thing that people often try to discuss here isn't about "energetic development"--that's one of the big probs with TTB- it seems to mostly come down to "he who has the most phenomena wins"...

[Guest paul walter]

This weekend metal dog made some of his nutrient dense meat cake.

 

 

Thanks for that . Remind me to post my recipe of vegan raw nut/chia/algae 'bake' on MEATLOVERS.com or some other such relevancy

[Guest paul walter]

Im not sure if you missed my post? I also have an awakened kundalini and CANNOT function without meat, and I usually need more red meat than anything. When you have kundalini, your energy is CONSTANTLY on, the catharsis is hard to stop, so meat helps to ground, to slow the process and it allows the energy to intergrate before another balst of self insight. That has been my expeirience. Just to mention by the way, my wife is a vegatarian, she saids that its helps here connect more to her energy. So it all depends on what is needed. Also I am aware of what you meant astral by the lasting pleasure comment. What I meant is that I dont think that is easily attained and I am not sure it is real. thats all. well have different definitions of liberation.

 

 

So apart from the 'rightness' of whether one wants to feel like this with kundalini always on etc (I myself became vegan when my energy reached a peak through heart-mind connection -walking six hours a day on a few handfuls of bits and bobs, mostly for the sheer pleasure of movement/being alive--also, i feel one should be grounded without inputs otherwise it's simply a bad drug trip maybe?) what do you think is the 'meaning' for the rest of the population that doesn't have their kundalini running and consume animal products the way they do? Says much about 'our' culture, no? I imagine most need to have their head in the clouds with spiritual practice to the extent that this culture I'm in does nothing but pull you back to the ground (whether through diet or any other attatchment). Paul