no-self and free will

[3bob]

There is an electrical transformer,

 

On one side of that transformer and running around

in the circuitry of the universe is a little electron,

 

A time comes when the little electron takes a long journey back through

the universes circuitry and attains to the side of this transformer that powers the universe,

 

The transformer has infinite power flow yet that is not quite enough

for the electron so he crosses over and out of the transformers copper windings

and into its empty electro-magnetic field...which

is somewhat disconcerting because now he is no longer an electron.

 

If he gets stuck in that field, then he proclaims its emptiness,

If not then he crosses all the way over and reaches "none other".

 

Om

Edited August 13, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

...expcet for where my wife put them

 

Yeah, well, that's a different story and I suppose we shouldn't talk about it. (Don't want to get you in trouble. Hehehe.)

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

3bob: It must experience both in order to reach the Buddhist realization of emptiness. Emptiness isn't the simplistic idea that nothing's real or nothing exists. (

) "Emptiness" is a direct translation of Shunyata. This word has different semantic connotations in Sanskrit, where it signifies something akin to "neutrality". It takes considerable intellectual effort just to understand the real concept of Shunyata, let alone realize it in everyday life. It's nothing like getting stuck with a fixed, narrow label that one has slapped onto all phenomena after a certain stage of spiritual practice, more like searching for, identifying and then adopting the most flexible, beneficial and rational framework within which to contextualize one's experiences.

 

If I ever discover a better view than the Buddhist Right View of DO-Emptiness, I swear I'll drop it without a moment's hesitation.

[Marblehead]

There is an electrical transformer,

Om

 

I just finished playing with some electrons. Added two more solar panels to my solar system and now the little puppies are collecting the sun's energy, converting it into 12VDC and this converted energy is powering a water pump.

 

I love electricity if it doesn't cost too much.

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

Meh, if you want to find out how reality works, you go take a closer look at said reality. If you see that it's ultimately causal and non-deterministic at once, then reality is ultimately causal and non-deterministic at once irrespective of what anyone has to say on the matter. Case closed.

 

What can I say? Seems simple and obvious to me.

[beoman]

Meh, if you want to find out how reality works, you go take a closer look at said reality. If you see that it's ultimately causal and non-deterministic at once, then reality is ultimately causal and non-deterministic at once irrespective of what anyone has to say on the matter. Case closed.

 

What can I say? Seems simple and obvious to me.

 

Just one issue: maybe you seeing it that way is a deluded view? how do you know it's true? in this case maybe it's helpful to talk about it.

 

But otherwise, I agree. It is simple: just go see for yourself. I think the problem we get into here is when we try to figure it out without investigating it, then we get into all kinds of quagmires and philosophical mind games.

[3bob]

3bob: It must experience both in order to reach the Buddhist realization of emptiness. Emptiness isn't the simplistic idea that nothing's real or nothing exists. (

) "Emptiness" is a direct translation of Shunyata. This word has different semantic connotations in Sanskrit, where it signifies something akin to "neutrality". It takes considerable intellectual effort just to understand the real concept of Shunyata, let alone realize it in everyday life. It's nothing like getting stuck with a fixed, narrow label that one has slapped onto all phenomena after a certain stage of spiritual practice, more like searching for, identifying and then adopting the most flexible, beneficial and rational framework within which to contextualize one's experiences.

 

If I ever discover a better view than the Buddhist Right View of DO-Emptiness, I swear I'll drop it without a moment's hesitation.

 

Nac,

I didn't say or imply anything about nihilism. Did you see it that way? If so I'm not sure why? Also, I don't have an all consuming need for intellectual labyrinths, or the percieved corrected-ness of juggling concepts related to same. (although & granted such does have a time and a place)

 

So no biggy man, I have nothing to prove or make complex - which is pure, simple and happy.

 

Om... p.s. imo the "four-fold negation" also does a good job of describing what it can not describe when it comes to "emptiness", thus not nihilism or its counter-part - per-se.

Edited August 13, 2010 by 3bob

[Lucky7Strikes]

Man this is why human language sucks... cause you say as the "I" and "free will" are let go of, *one* actually is *inclined* to deeper practices. But those starred words directly contradict the quoted words right before them.

 

 

Ya I'll just practice till I can do that =).

Well, conditions begin manifesting towards practice. So there is just practice, no one really practicing. The Dharma is in a way a gift.

 

But you can apply this to just about anything. A basketball player, an accountant, a poet, etc. becomes who he is due to causes and conditions that have shaped his "will" to arise and so forth. But the difference is their world revolves around a never ending cycle of grasping. Yet just like them, Buddhist, Taoist or whatever practices his arts because he is inclined to due so.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[3bob]

I just finished playing with some electrons. Added two more solar panels to my solar system and now the little puppies are collecting the sun's energy, converting it into 12VDC and this converted energy is powering a water pump.

 

I love electricity if it doesn't cost too much.

 

Peace & Love!

 

sounds like good wattage and karma to me

[nac]

Just one issue: maybe you seeing it that way is a deluded view? how do you know it's true? in this case maybe it's helpful to talk about it.

You can't prove or disprove empirical claims with absolute logical certainty due to their very nature. All you can do is note: this is what I sense, and if it's interacted with in this fashion, then this is how my sensation and associated contextual deductions change every time. Moreover, do I sense that all other people notice the same phenomenon? And science has this in the form of mindbogglingly huge databases of evidence, because in the real world, it's impossible to know things with any degree of certainty beyond it. In fact, the concept of "proof" only makes sense within two highly specific domains of knowledge: mathematics and logic, neither of which are directly concerned with phenomena arising in the world of sense, but with meta-phenomena. When people say otherwise or demand non-logical and non-mathematical proof, they're projecting habits of mind learned from these limited, toy domains into areas where they are inapplicable. Nowadays, this is called the ludic fallacy. It's what Plato did with his philosophy of all-encompassing objective idealism inspired by Euclid's geometry. Therefore you asking for incontrovertible "proof" that my view is not deluded rests on an implied logical fallacy.

 

Since nothing beyond the scope of these two subjects can have either concrete proof or disproof of absolute validity, even science, which is based on an empirical epistemology, is only relatively (but increasingly) true: http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm Such non-objective topics (including specific views) are always subject to reinterpretation and reevaluation, like this:

 

I didn't say or imply anything about nihilism.

I'm sorry for implying that you did.

 

A linguist explains how epistemic relativism applies to natural language, which is far out compared to science: http://www.zompist.com/rants.html#63

 

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevance_theory

 

Please read the science link and the first language one, if at all possible. Thanks.

Edited August 13, 2010 by nac

[gendao]

What part of the mind is it that receives "random" thoughts that are not obviously "you" actively & logically thinking?

 

Where do your "random" thoughts "out of thin air" really come from?

 

Are you the sender, receiver or both, here?

Edited August 13, 2010 by vortex

[Marblehead]

sounds like good wattage and karma to me

 

Yeah, I'm not sure about the karma part but it does reduce my electricity bill substantially.

 

And yeah, it is clean energy too.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

What part of the mind is it that receives "random" thoughts that are not obviously "you" actively & logically thinking?

 

Where do your "random" thoughts "out of thin air" really come from?

 

Are you the sender, receiver or both, here?

 

Nice questions. Where is our resident brainologist?

 

Peace & Love!

[nac]

What part of the mind is it that receives "random" thoughts that are not obviously "you" actively & logically thinking?

 

Where do your "random" thoughts "out of thin air" really come from?

 

Are you the sender, receiver or both, here?

Huh?

 

I'm confused, is this directed at me?

 

PS. Still dunno if this is directed at me or not, but I'm about to leave, so just in case it is, none of this is relevant to Buddhism. There might be some misconceptions on your part because Buddhism is totally down with logic.

Edited August 14, 2010 by nac

[Birch]

"So where the hell am I?! "

 

 

Can I suggest: Don't mistake yourself for the feeling of your heart beating.

 

Or the wind on your chin

And the sun attacking your window pane

Nor the people you meet and tell you who you are

 

Nor the light in your eyes

The ground under your feet

Nor your feet

 

But DO mistake yourself for all of it, and everything and anything you care to mention

[JustARandomPanda]

note I wouldn't read into my experience as anything particularly special.. except for the cruise ship thing maybe. but the rest I feel like could happen to anyone. i know if I read these things a few months ago i'd be like "woa crazy!!!@!!##" but now it's like "ah just some stuff happening".

 

and yeah lots of questioning on my side as well. that's why I started this post eh? what kinda stuff has been goin on w/ you?

 

 

I'll send you a PM about the truly weird stuff that's happened if you wish. I'd prefer not to mention those publicly as TaoBums is renown for being a hostile place and I've come to see there is validity to that claim. But I can list a few of the lesser things.

 

 

• While meditating something handed me a huge chi ball (which I swallowed since my mouth was open). I felt that chi ball pass down my torso, divide into 2 chi balls and pass down my legs, out through the soles of my feet, reunited into one chi ball and then about a yard out from me literally swept the perimeter of what felt like a giant eggshell. It literally felt like the chi ball was wiping clean the inside surface of this Aura-Egg. I freaked because I could physically feel one of those mystical auras I've always heard and read about.
• While lying in bed at night about to drift off to sleep a huge chi ball - about the size of a basket ball - fell from the ceiling - hit my heart chakra and then flooded my body. It was cold as hell - like a blast of Arctic wind - which is how I know it was external/environmental chi. Environmental chi - to my knowledge - is cold. It was over 100 degrees outside but this chi was so cold I had to turn off the A/C and crawl under some blankets as I was shivering and my teeth were chattering.
• Once when just relaxing but not meditating my body seemed to start up on it's own and I began to feel chi sweep in curly-cues and spirals all around my face, feet and legs.
• Once I HEARD my heart speak to me! As in - with English - with a SEPARATE VOICE coming from my heart region - not my head!!!! When it spoke my heart chakra started up in overdrive. It gave me a lesson about Love! So of course now when I hear or read about someone saying their heart spoke to them - well for me it is literal! I freaked. I suspect for people with fully opened heart chakras it may well be a common occurrence. Now I finally understand why the Chinese say there are separate spirits that inhabit the major body organs. I think those ancient TCM sages were telling people those spirits are literal, not metaphorical or symbolical like I'd formerly thought. I got empirical proof that at least my heart is a separate, aware and highly intelligent something on its own.

That's just a little bit. Probably common among qi gong practitioners and meditators but to a noob like me quite mind-blowing. And that's tame. I haven't even touched on the weird stuff.

[Marblehead]

"So where the hell am I?! "

 

Only you can answer that. Just don't lie to yourself, Okay?

 

But DO mistake yourself for all of it, and everything and anything you care to mention

 

Exactly!!! Way, way, way too many aspects of what makes us 'us' to be able to put a fingure on 'it'.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I'd prefer not to mention those publicly as TaoBums is renown for being a hostile place and I've come to see there is validity to that claim. But I can list a few of the lesser things.

 

Hey! Lighten up on us. We haven't been all that bad lately. Hehehe. (But you are right, things like that should go to PM.)

 

Peace & Love!

[beoman]

I'll send you a PM about the truly weird stuff that's happened if you wish. I'd prefer not to mention those publicly as TaoBums is renown for being a hostile place and I've come to see there is validity to that claim.

Ya sure let's take it to PM. I am renown for being curious =P. and not so hostile.

 

[*]Once when just relaxing but not meditating my body seemed to start up on it's own and I began to feel chi sweep in curly-cues and spirals all around my face, feet and legs.

I believe this happens to me too. I can't tell if it's chi but I feel some strange sensations all over my body.

 

[*]Once I HEARD my heart speak to me! As in - with English - with a SEPARATE VOICE coming from my heart region - not my head!!!! When it spoke my heart chakra started up in overdrive. It gave me a lesson about Love! So of course now when I hear or read about someone saying their heart spoke to them - well for me it is literal! I freaked. I suspect for people with fully opened heart chakras it may well be a common occurrence. Now I finally understand why the Chinese say there are separate spirits that inhabit the major body organs. I think those ancient TCM sages were telling people those spirits are literal, not metaphorical or symbolical like I'd formerly thought. I got empirical proof that at least my heart is a separate, aware and highly intelligent something on its own.

Oo neat, I didn't know that could happen!

 

Sounds like whatever it is you are doing, it's causing you to see reality in a different way. keep it up, I'd say, could lead to interesting places =). But also from what I understand, if you want to reach enlightenment, don't get caught up on them or treat them as having real substance, at least while you're meditating, or you'll just solidify them as something artificially real without progressing.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'll send you a PM about the truly weird stuff that's happened if you wish. I'd prefer not to mention those publicly as TaoBums is renown for being a hostile place and I've come to see there is validity to that claim. But I can list a few of the lesser things.

 

 

• While meditating something handed me a huge chi ball (which I swallowed since my mouth was open). I felt that chi ball pass down my torso, divide into 2 chi balls and pass down my legs, out through the soles of my feet, reunited into one chi ball and then about a yard out from me literally swept the perimeter of what felt like a giant eggshell. It literally felt like the chi ball was wiping clean the inside surface of this Aura-Egg. I freaked because I could physically feel one of those mystical auras I've always heard and read about.
• While lying in bed at night about to drift off to sleep a huge chi ball - about the size of a basket ball - fell from the ceiling - hit my heart chakra and then flooded my body. It was cold as hell - like a blast of Arctic wind - which is how I know it was external/environmental chi. Environmental chi - to my knowledge - is cold. It was over 100 degrees outside but this chi was so cold I had to turn off the A/C and crawl under some blankets as I was shivering and my teeth were chattering.
• Once when just relaxing but not meditating my body seemed to start up on it's own and I began to feel chi sweep in curly-cues and spirals all around my face, feet and legs.
• Once I HEARD my heart speak to me! As in - with English - with a SEPARATE VOICE coming from my heart region - not my head!!!! When it spoke my heart chakra started up in overdrive. It gave me a lesson about Love! So of course now when I hear or read about someone saying their heart spoke to them - well for me it is literal! I freaked. I suspect for people with fully opened heart chakras it may well be a common occurrence. Now I finally understand why the Chinese say there are separate spirits that inhabit the major body organs. I think those ancient TCM sages were telling people those spirits are literal, not metaphorical or symbolical like I'd formerly thought. I got empirical proof that at least my heart is a separate, aware and highly intelligent something on its own.

That's just a little bit. Probably common among qi gong practitioners and meditators but to a noob like me quite mind-blowing. And that's tame. I haven't even touched on the weird stuff.

 

Yeah baby... I've had ALL these experiences, literally, but with slight personal nuances in proliferation. RIGHT ON!