The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism

[Easy]

Or maybe he means Anthony C. Yu's translation of "Journey to the West"?

Maybe "Journey to the East" is also very good... Sort of like the journey to the west,

but everything is the opposite. just funnin', that's all...

 

Best wishes from Iskote...

 

 

...its the dyslexia.

[goldisheavy]

This thread has arisen out of a lively debate over the philosophical / religious aspects of Taoism.

 

I can see here that we are witnessing the inherent pluralistic nature of Taoism (i.e. Taoism has various monastic sects (Quanzhen, Longmen, Wudang, etc.) as well as philosophical and folk religious aspects).

 

I know Marblehead maintains that Taoism was a philosophy which then became a religion. In one sense he may be correct in that Taoism wasn't "formalized" until late in the Han dynasty, well after the time of the philosophers Laozi and Chuangzi. However, he has still been unable to produce anything beyond his own opinion to give credibility to his claim.

 

On the contrary, it can be seen that philosophical Taoism is the latecomer and is perhaps a Western distortion of true Taoism within the cultural Chinese context. Please review:

 

THE TAOISM OF THE WESTERN IMAGINATION AND THE TAOISM OF CHINA: DE-COLONIALIZING THE EXOTIC TEACHINGS OF THE EAST

Presented at the University of Tennessee

20 October 1997

Russell Kirkland

 

The problem that Kirkland and others like him will have is that they cannot eliminate Zhuangzi from Taoist ethnography (or there a better word? spiritualography? philosography? or philosophigraphy?). And Zhungzi is very uncompromising and very clear in his approach. He attacks dogmatism of any kind, questions rituals and norms and so on. And he's considered the most important person in Taoism right after Laozi himself. You just can't sweep that shit under any rug.

 

In reality we cannot know what happened long time ago. What we have is our recent past and all the thoughts and records and legends and myths that our recent past grants us. That's it!

 

What's important is this. Instead of establishing what happened or didn't happen back then, what is most useful right now? And right now the most useful thing is something like Zhuangzi's contemplation of phenomena. Religious Taoism is a lot less useful or maybe even harmful. It might be one of the things that Zhuangzi would be horrified of if he saw it develop. It would be a perversion of his thinking. The same thing is mirrored in Lieh Tzu.

 

In Lieh Tzu there is a very good description of an enlightened society. I think it was some emperor who put everything aside and started meditating and contemplating 24/7 when he had a dream. In his dream he saw people who were like cats. No one followed anyone else. No one could be said to be wiser than the other. No one argued with each other and tried to prove anything. And yet any member of this society could perform any phenomenal feat whatsoever. These people had limitless abilities and there were not organized in any way. There was no goverment and no bureaucracy and yet there was spontaneous harmony. I am probably screwing this up somewhat, so if you want a perfect description of this, try to read any translations or originals of Lieh Tzu (pinyin Liezi) you can get your hands on.

 

So if you take 2 of the 3 topmost Taoists, you can get all kinds of hints against religion and against formalities, against bureaucracies and so forth. And almost the entirety of Tao Te Ching is a testament against religion. I was going to pick a quote but then I realized I'd have to pick too many. It's just incompatible with religion from top to bottom.

[rene]

GIH - bang on. Top to bottom.

[Marblehead]

Just noting that the posts here have been read.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

And almost the entirety of Tao Te Ching is a testament against religion. I was going to pick a quote but then I realized I'd have to pick too many. It's just incompatible with religion from top to bottom.

Heya GIH ... I agree with you on this. I think we have to appreciate that even within the so-designated "religious" branches of Taoism there are plural aspects.

 

It all depends on where you draw the fuzzy line between philosophical and religious Taoism.

 

For example, the Quanzhen school (in my experience and study), whilst falling under the religious banner, has pursuits of cultivation (see post above) as it's focus in order to achieve one's integral nature rather than the trappings of the orthodox communal Taoism. But by rights I have to accept that it does indeed still fall under the category of a religion.

 

Personally I believe that in the West there is excessive aversion to Taoism as a religion due to our bad experiences with Western religion. Thankfully I was never brought up in a religious atmosphere so I have been able to engage the religious (read this as "spiritual cultivation") aspects of Taoism without the emotional baggage.

[Marblehead]

 

It all depends on where you draw the fuzzy line between philosophical and religious Taoism.

 

 

For me Nietzsche had already drawn the line for me as I read Nietzsche before I read me first TTC translation.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

For me Nietzsche had already drawn the line for me as I read Nietzsche before I read me first TTC translation.

 

Peace & Love!

Don't hold back on us now Mr Marblehead How does Nietzsche draw his fuzzy line?

[Marblehead]

Don't hold back on us now Mr Marblehead How does Nietzsche draw his fuzzy line?

 

That is actually funnier than most people would ever realize. Hehehe.

 

Actually, his fuzzy line went all over the freaking place. I guess that's the most beautiful part of it all.

 

He actually tried to get a little spiritual off and on but it just didn't sit well with him. Of course, he loved Greek Mythology and that's kinda' spiritual.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

That is actually funnier than most people would ever realize. Hehehe.

 

Actually, his fuzzy line went all over the freaking place. I guess that's the most beautiful part of it all.

 

He actually tried to get a little spiritual off and on but it just didn't sit well with him. Of course, he loved Greek Mythology and that's kinda' spiritual.

 

Peace & Love!

A beautifully fuzzy answer which in no way enlightens me to how you personally draw the distinction between philosophical and religious Taoism. Hehehehe!

 

Exactly what "beliefs" would you subscribe to or what practices would you have to do to classify, in your mind, someone as being a religious Taoist?

[Tao99]

A beautifully fuzzy answer which in no way enlightens me to how you personally draw the distinction between philosophical and religious Taoism. Hehehehe!

 

Exactly what "beliefs" would you subscribe to or what practices would you have to do to classify, in your mind, someone as being a religious Taoist?

getting pregnant might be a good place to draw the non-fuzzy line

[Marblehead]

getting pregnant might be a good place to draw the non-fuzzy line

 

Thanks buddy. That really helped. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Easy]

[rene]

[Marblehead]

A beautifully fuzzy answer which in no way enlightens me to how you personally draw the distinction between philosophical and religious Taoism. Hehehehe!

 

That's my 'Way'. Hehehe. I start with muddy water and if it is not irritated it gradually becomes clear. Actually, I am pretty good at making generalized statements without stereotyping or limiting (unless I am talking with V.).

 

Exactly what "beliefs" would you subscribe to or what practices would you have to do to classify, in your mind, someone as being a religious Taoist?

 

A fair question. To me, religion implies a deity. So anyone who holds to the concept of a deity would be a religious person. Many Buddhists get off the hook on this one as they do not consider Buddha to be any kind of god.

 

A second criteria would be a set of dogma that a person must follow in order to attain 'whatever'.

 

I really don't consider the Alchemist Taoist as Religious Taoists unless they hol to either of the two above. The same goes for the MA Taoists.

 

So, bottom line, any belief system that restricts the individual's freedom, places demands on the individual for acceptance, or makes the individual a herd animal I would call a religion.

 

I welcome all questions regarding anything I have said here. I'm sure the waters are not clear yet.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Now I am writing here as if there is an agreed upon distinction between the words "religious" and "spiritual,"

 

I agree. Religion and spirituality are two different concepts. The two can be discussed together or they can be discussed separately.

 

Good post.

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

Well interestingly enough if I was to follow your definitions of religion then I wouldn't be in a religion

 

But as I always do I kinda like digging into a word to know what it really means.

 

re⋅li⋅gion (rɪˈlɪdʒən) [ri-lij-uhn]

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

 

So my checklist for the Taoism I study:

 

* A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe - Yes

* The creation of a superhuman agency or agencies - No not really as Tao is considered to be a process of universal manifestation ... though interaction with subtle beings is incorporated

* Involving devotional and ritual observances - Yes

* Containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs - Yes in that virtue is the natural result. Virtuous deeds / modes of behavior are outlined to point practitioners in a harmonious direction.

* A body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices - Yes

 

So, according to this checklist based on conventional definitions, the tradition of Tao I study is 80% a religion.

 

[Zenshiite]

Consider, if you will, the possibility of being anti-dogmatic and yet practicing rituals that many would consider "dogmatic." Sufis are reknowned for their ecstatic poetry that seems unorthodox to outsiders, and even the strict exoterics within the Islamic tradition, and their criticism of the exoteric clerical establishment... yet they are also well known for their devotions. Not only the required bare minimum prayers, fasting etc of a Muslim, but above and beyond that in the example of Muhammad and his household. Extra prayers, extra fasts, lots and lots of dhikr(invocation/remembrance).

 

I think one might have to take this into account. The Taoism of Lao Tzu and Chuan Tzu didn't come from nowhere, especially since they were using terminologies and appealing to ancient Chinese legends that their philosopher peers of different schools were also using to hark back to an idyllic age. Confucianism lends itself very handily to "going through the motions" with no heart and no reflection. These are the kinds of things you see mystics and theosophers criticize in all cultures and religions. Is it not possible that Chuan Tzu was fully engaged in religious practices that would later become infused into what would become known as "Tao Jiao" while remaining critical of those that engage in similar practices without introspection, contemplation and true presence of heart/mind?

[Stigweard]

I have created a poll for this topic:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/Is-your-Taoism-a...ion-t11882.html

[Zenshiite]

Another thing, as an outsider so to speak, I think one would be somewhat accurate in describing Confucianism, Taoism, Mohism and even to a certain degree Chinese Buddhism as schools of thought within one ancient Chinese folk religion. As all, to the degree I've had access to their works, seem to operate off many of the same basic assumptions and foundational legends/myths.

[Stigweard]

Another thing, as an outsider so to speak, I think one would be somewhat accurate in describing Confucianism, Taoism, Mohism and even to a certain degree Chinese Buddhism as schools of thought within one ancient Chinese folk religion. As all, to the degree I've had access to their works, seem to operate off many of the same basic assumptions and foundational legends/myths.

My research, as limited as it is, arrives at the same conclusion.

 

[goldisheavy]

Heya GIH ... I agree with you on this. I think we have to appreciate that even within the so-designated "religious" branches of Taoism there are plural aspects.

 

It all depends on where you draw the fuzzy line between philosophical and religious Taoism.

 

For example, the Quanzhen school (in my experience and study), whilst falling under the religious banner, has pursuits of cultivation (see post above) as it's focus in order to achieve one's integral nature rather than the trappings of the orthodox communal Taoism. But by rights I have to accept that it does indeed still fall under the category of a religion.

 

Personally I believe that in the West there is excessive aversion to Taoism as a religion due to our bad experiences with Western religion. Thankfully I was never brought up in a religious atmosphere so I have been able to engage the religious (read this as "spiritual cultivation") aspects of Taoism without the emotional baggage.

 

I think it's easy to distinguish religion from philosophy.

 

1. Do they worship Laozi, Zhuangzi and Liezi as deities? (yes - religion, no - philosophy)

 

2. Do they actually bother to read and understand the writings of Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Liezi? (no - religion, yes - philosophy)

 

3. Do they focus on selling charms as opposed to explaining the inner mechanics behind charms that would enable all people to make their own? (yes - religion, no - philosophy) (To give you an equivalent from another religion, for example a Christian uses a relic of some saint to heal without explaining that faith itself is what heals and you can have a faith in the chair and also get healed... in other words, you don't have to believe in anything even remotely Christian to get healed, but rather the mind itself heals you, your own beliefs heals you.... so Christianity disempowers the person while empowering the group dependence)

 

4. Do they foster self-reliance or do they create perpetual co-dependence? (fosters self-reliance - philosophy, fosters perpetual co-dependence - religion) (and here I note that it's good and natural for people to help and share, but this is not what I call co-dependence. Co-dependence is a group dynamic that is manipulative where one member of the group tries to manipulate the rest of the group to his or her advantage and appears to be stuck in that modality, afraid to live in a different way)

 

Of course things do not have to be black and white. Nothing stops a contemplative person from engaging in some religious activity and nothing stops a religious person from engaging in some contemplative activity.

 

The reason I value the Taoist sages is because of what they said. It's not because they fly high above us in the sky and if we pray to them all will be better. Everything we need to make our lives better has already been revealed by the three sages. If people only pick up those books and read them, that knowledge can be immediately put into practice. One does not need to hunt far and wide for a Guru or join a religion to benefit.

[forestofemptiness]

If I remember back to my course on existential philosophy, Nietzsche's line wasn't fuzzy at all--- he came down hard against religion as applied to the Overman. According to the Overman theory, the Overman would be physically, emotionally, and mentally supreme. Religion would weaken him/her with its arbitrary limitations.

 

I think there is a kernal of truth to that. Religion, like everything else, grows from one thing (a realization) to another (a rigid, set structure.)

 

Don't hold back on us now Mr Marblehead How does Nietzsche draw his fuzzy line?

[Marblehead]

 

So, according to this checklist based on conventional definitions, the tradition of Tao I study is 80% a religion.

 

 

Yea!!!!!! Stig is a Religious Taoist!!! (Of course, we already knew that.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

If I remember back to my course on existential philosophy, Nietzsche's line wasn't fuzzy at all--- he came down hard against religion as applied to the Overman. According to the Overman theory, the Overman would be physically, emotionally, and mentally supreme. Religion would weaken him/her with its arbitrary limitations.

 

I think there is a kernal of truth to that. Religion, like everything else, grows from one thing (a realization) to another (a rigid, set structure.)

 

Hi Forest,

 

You're spoiling my fun. Hehehe. (I agree with you but please don't tell anyone.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Stigweard]

I think it's easy to distinguish religion from philosophy.

 

1. Do they worship Laozi, Zhuangzi and Liezi as deities? (yes - religion, no - philosophy)

 

2. Do they actually bother to read and understand the writings of Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Liezi? (no - religion, yes - philosophy)

 

3. Do they focus on selling charms as opposed to explaining the inner mechanics behind charms that would enable all people to make their own? (yes - religion, no - philosophy)

 

4. Do they foster self-reliance or do they create perpetual co-dependence? (fosters self-reliance - philosophy, fosters perpetual co-dependence - religion)

Interesting GIH ... by your definition of a "Religion" I would be, in each case, part of a philosophy.

 

So we can see that the terms "Religious" or "Philosophical" Taoism is totally dependent on where you individually draw that shifting line of distinction.

[rene]

So we can see that the terms "Religious" or "Philosophical" Taoism is totally dependent on where you individually draw that shifting line of distinction.

 

Yep. That's called cherry-picking.

[Stigweard]

Yep. That's called cherry-picking.

Which is kinda why I am trying to establish some sort of consensus agreement of what we can call "Religious Taoism". Even on the sliding scale there are differing "extremes" of religious activities.