Advaita Vedanta vs Buddhism

[Siliconvalley1]

Vajra would know better than I since I am just a beginner in Tibetan Budds

 

in Vajrayana you commune with Diety in a personal form, but its a form of your enlightened nature of mind. Wisdom exists as a quality of the true nature of mind and sometimes, the karmic obscurations like dirty clouds clear away and the sun shines forth and clear light and visionary dreams are experienced, or even waking life encounters. but due to your karma you still perceive this wisdom as coming from a separate source when in fact it is a quality of your true nature.

 

mindstreams are infinite, beginningless, and separate. and yet the qualities are the same: wisdom, emptiness, compassion. so a thought experiment, you have 2 Buddhas in the same room. they are separate mind stream, not the same, but they both have the same qualities of infinite wisdom. this does not mean that they are both connected to some source of wisdom, or God, but rather wisdom is a quality of the true nature of mind.

 

Okay! This is the Buddhist view. You think it's true based on what you think Buddha said and what another master said. But that is your reason, especially when talking of something as subtle and complex as enlightenment, to say "this is the only way and the right way". If it is right for you, so be it! But understand that these are Buddhist concepts and mean nothing significant to others. These need not be universally true, till proven by direct experience. And I would doubt if such an experience can ever be translated to words.

 

Hinduism is beautiful, it's a wonderful path and I experienced incredible states of consciousness, bliss, devotion, etc. But, later I found it's interpretation of these states to be lacking...

 

Your experience and true for you alone. There is probably someone else who has a similar experience with Tibetan Buddhism. We cannot make generic conclusions on this line.

 

Study it with an open mind leaving your Hindu interpretations at the door with your ego.

 

I wish you only followed your own advice

 

Have it your way, most people do on these boards, I find no one really changes their mind much, no matter how long one argues for. I changed my mind though, I did find and realize that the unanswered questions I had from Shaivism were answered through Buddhism. When you get to that place, it might not be this lifetime, you might find and ask more. What happens when you die? What will happen when you realize final liberation? Answer these questions? Only Mahayana answers these questions. Mahayana talks about the activities of enlightened beings, how enlightened beings manifest their powers to proliferate dharma and pacify the suffering. Shaivism mostly just says you serve people and then you die and go to Siddhaloka

 

Jeez! It would have been better if you stated only Mahayana satisfactorily answered [/i]your[/i] questions. Have you studied Pratyabhijna-Vrtti, or Shiva sutra vimarshini or Tantraloka (rare translations hooola...)? Have you studied Siddhasiddhanta Chandrika that talks only about after life? Yoga Vasistha is a very recent work and is hardly used by any traditional aspirant to study. It does not represent any particular tradition - neither the laghu or brhat vasistha - and your repeated naming of that book alone speaks a lot! Have you studied Panchastavi? Have you studied Svacchanda Tantra? I am surprised you did not find answers to these basic questions!

 

Well actually not Shiva because Chakrasamvara liberated Shiva before the Kali Yuga, but he still manifests as a worldly deity until his time to manifest as a Buddha sometime in the future where he will teach the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold noble path and dependent origination.

 

Seriously you believe in this bunch of myths and tales? There are a load of such tales depicting gory battles between Buddhist and Hindu deities, of Bodhisatvas accepting Hindu female deities - wives of other hindu male deities - as there sexual partners blah blah. I am surprised that you quoted this here as though this bundle of myth is of some importance! Some of those tales make a good fantasy movie.

 

I grew up my entire life Hindu, living in Ashrams and experiencing deep states of meditation, having kundalini awakening, etc.

 

Don't mean to get personal, but your claim to bring in authencity to your argument repetedly by claiming youve seen it all in Advaita/Shaivism - is an important thing to be considered here. There is nothing to refute here as you've not stated anything substantial from any of these schools here. But here is something I read ..

 

I was born in San Francisco, but moved around the country for the sake of higher learning (learning of myself), from New Mexico to upstate New York in an Ashram (spiritual retreat community)where I lived, worked and delved deeply into myself for almost 3 years, then NYC and Kansas City to Virginia, Oakland, Florida and more. I went to 3 different high schools in 2 different states in my youth, then went to college for a second and studied ceramics and basic art design. I taught ceramics at a summer camp in Connecticut called Bucks Rock Camp. For most of my life since 15 I worked in various restaurants from some 4 star classy joints to no star cafes until I started pedi-cabbing in NYC in 2004.

 

So does this describe your supposed "well-versed" path along Advaita Vedantaor Advaya Shaivism?

Edited May 28, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

When you see the Tao, which you will, then you will see what a foolish statement this is. In fact, you will see how foolish all statements are.

 

Where do you think you are going to?

 

 

I have seen the Tao directly, and then I transcended it. Not permanently, but I have that direct experiencing.

 

The Tao is a cosmic essence, sorry this also is dependently originated and without inherent existence.

 

I realized it was a mistaken interpretation of mystic experience and moved on.

[Pero]

Is this thread about Advaita and Buddhism or Hindu bashing? Mikaelz and Vajrahridaya, who seem to be one person, repeatedly have used the term Hindus in every inappropriate way possible.

 

 

Vajrahridaya=Hari (Hi dude, nice to see you haha) and not Mikaelz.

 

In fact, same has been told by Advaitins and Shaivaites about Buddhist realization.

 

Of course, every tradition refutes another.

 

Mikaelz:

but we're stuck in samsara and words are very important.

 

Important, for what? Certainly not for liberation!

 

Of course for liberation too. Without words you can't learn anything.

 

Pero:

you posting as SilliconValley1? Forgot your password or what?

Ha ha yes, haven't been around for a while and lo! I can't login any more

 

Perhaps you've forgotten that you have to log on with your email and not your username? That happened to me.

[Siliconvalley1]

Perhaps you've forgotten that you have to log on with your email and not your username? That happened to me.

 

 

Not that deluded in Samsara yet.

 

It does not work for some reason! Bodhisatvas have waged a war I guess, like the episodes in Manjushri mula kalpa or guhyasamaja tantra

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited May 28, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[steve]

Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes.

Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definations have vanished and no boundaries are seen.

So too with being and non-being.

Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.

One thing, all things: move among and intermingle, without distinction.

To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.

To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.

Words! The Way is beyond language, for in it there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today.

Hsin Hsin Ming (Verses on the Faith Mind by The 3rd Zen Patriarch, Sengstau)

 

Beautiful quotation... thanks for that

 

There is NO path to the truth.

Buddha's story was that he had to step off of all known paths and find his own way.

Now millions try to follow HIS way and lament how difficult it is.

All of the volumes of scripture are literally attempts to capture 'nothing' in words...

 

Ironic, isn't it?

[Siliconvalley1]

Edited May 28, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

'Siliconvalley1'

Okay! This is the Buddhist view. You think it's true based on what you think Buddha said and what another master said. But that is your reason, especially when talking of something as subtle and complex as enlightenment, to say "this is the only way and the right way". If it is right for you, so be it! But understand that these are Buddhist concepts and mean nothing significant to others. These need not be universally true, till proven by direct experience. And I would doubt if such an experience can ever be translated to words.

 

There is plenty of direct experience. Also, it can be displayed in words, the entire Buddhist cannon from the Pali, to the Sanskrit, the Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan.

 

Your experience and true for you alone. There is probably someone else who has a similar experience with Tibetan Buddhism. We cannot make generic conclusions on this line.

 

I do have the same experience with Tibetan Buddhism, just the interpretation is clearer and there is a subtler difference within about the experiencing. It's nice and quite deep, to go deeper.

 

I wish you only followed your own advice

 

I do, I'm pretty objective, if you actually prove me wrong, I'll concede.

 

Jeez! It would have been better if you stated only Mahayana satisfactorily answered [/i]your[/i] questions. Have you studied Pratyabhijna-Vrtti, or Shiva sutra vimarshini or Tantraloka (rare translations hooola...)? Have you studied Siddhasiddhanta Chandrika that talks only about after life? Yoga Vasistha is a very recent work and is hardly used by any traditional aspirant to study. It does not represent any particular tradition - neither the laghu or brhat vasistha - and your repeated naming of that book alone speaks a lot! Have you studied Panchastavi? Have you studied Svacchanda Tantra? I am surprised you did not find answers to these basic questions!

 

I have studied the Pratyabhijna, Shiva Sutras, Tantraloka, I remember reading much more but I don't remember all the names, but Siddhasiddhanta Chandrika sounds familiar. I've read south indian siddhar stuff a bit. Have you read the Vasistha's Yoga? It's quite terse. I have read the Svacchanda Tantra I think? Anyway, I found what used to satisfy my questions, but I realized that there were subtler questions not being answered. So, no I wasn't fully satisfied with what I read in Shaivite and Advaita texts.

 

Here's a link to some of what I've read, much of this many times even. Ananta Yoga Learning Center Link

 

 

Seriously you believe in this bunch of myths and tales? There are a load of such tales depicting gory battles between Buddhist and Hindu deities, of Bodhisatvas accepting Hindu female deities - wives of other hindu male deities - as there sexual partners blah blah. I am surprised that you quoted this here as though this bundle of myth is of some importance! Some of those tales make a good fantasy movie.

 

You haven't done much interstellar, inter-dimensional traveling have you? Oh yeah, mystical experiences are hallucinations, I forgot.

 

 

Don't mean to get personal, but your claim to bring in authencity to your argument repetedly by claiming youve seen it all in Advaita/Shaivism - is an important thing to be considered here. There is nothing to refute here as you've not stated anything substantial from any of these schools here.

 

Well, I listed a link of only some of what I've studied, as I've studied much, much more of Advaita and Shaivism as well as all other spiritual traditions.

 

But here is something I read ..

So does this describe your supposed "well-versed" path along Advaita Vedantaor Advaya Shaivism?

 

No it doesn't, but all the while I certainly studied and practiced.

[Siliconvalley1]

know Mikaelz and he does have some direct experiencing and is a good young seeker.

 

If we are handing out medals, let me give one to Dwai. He has loads of direct experiencing and is a very good, mature seeker.

[Vajrahridaya]

[steve]

There is plenty of direct experience. Also, it can be displayed in words, the entire Buddhist cannon from the Pali, to the Sanskrit, the Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan.

I must respectfully disagree - direct experience can never be captured or meaningfully displayed in words.

Only images are displayed in words and images are poor approximations of experience at best.

You can't drink the word water - you will choke on the paper long before you quench your thirst.

[Vajrahridaya]

If we are handing out medals, let me give one to Dwai. He has loads of direct experiencing and is a very good, mature seeker.

 

Sure, but he's wrong about his all is one claim.

 

He, nor you seem to understand dependent origination.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention, that I have received transmission from a genuine Shaivite Master and have gotten a hold of some secret Shaivite teachings.

[Siliconvalley1]

There is not much to argue right here. You say:

 

- I have studied it ALL, reached the summit of all its teachings, and discarded them.

- What I have studied - I am not stating anything here- I will throw a few names - and give the link to a online Text Repository! Remember, I have read it ALL

- And what I say is the only correct thing:

- Why? Because:

a. Hindus don't know stuff and their teachings are useless

b. Mikaelz, Buddha and some Rinpoche - in that order - say so! And sometimes Nagarjuna too.

c. My experience tells me I am right and rest is wrong - I am enlightened you idiots

 

 

Salute to Master Vajrahridaya...

 

Santi, you should seriously change your name from Vajrasattva to something else. Hatred/division and its opposite that you represent seem to have nothing in common.

[Vajrahridaya]

I must respectfully disagree - direct experience can never be captured or meaningfully displayed in words.

Only images are displayed in words and images are poor approximations of experience at best.

You can't drink the word water - you will choke on the paper long before you quench your thirst.

 

The words cannot totally describe or encapsulate the experience, but they can lead the horse to water.

 

Buddhas water troff is cleaner than the rest.

[Siliconvalley1]

Sure, but he's wrong about his all is one claim.

 

He, nor you seem to understand dependent origination.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention, that I have received transmission from a genuine Shaivite Master and have gotten a hold of some secret Shaivite teachings.

 

 

I get a feeling that YOU are the Maitreya Buddha! Who claims to have studied it all, and know it all

[Vajrahridaya]

There is not much to argue right here. You say:

 

- I have studied it ALL, reached the summit of all its teachings, and discarded them.

- What I have studied - I am not stating anything here- I will throw a few names - and give the link to a online Text Repository! Remember, I have read it ALL

- And what I say is the only correct thing:

- Why? Because:

a. Hindus don't know stuff and their teachings are useless

b. Mikaelz, Buddha and some Rinpoche - in that order - say so! And sometimes Nagarjuna too.

c. My experience tells me I am right and rest is wrong - I am enlightened you idiots

Salute to Master Vajrahridaya...

 

Santi, you should seriously change your name from Vajrasattva to something else. Hatred/division and its opposite that you represent seem to have nothing in common.

 

Your pretty extreme in your interpretation of me there Siliconvalley. I must question your sanity.

 

You really must feel threatened. You fall into ad hom's.

 

I get a feeling that YOU are the Maitreya Buddha! Who claims to have studied it all, and know it all

 

No, not ALL, but plenty.

 

Thanks for the compliment though. Maybe I am Maitreya Buddha??

 

Edited May 28, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Siliconvalley1]

Your pretty extreme in your interpretation of me there Siliconvalley. I must question your sanity.

 

 

I agree I am insane, have always been...thankfully not fanatic though

 

I am not threatened for sure, as I am open to investigating my belief system or practice - which is Taoism more than anything else - but tired for sure, reading through the last 6+ pages on this thread

[steve]

 

Buddhas water troff is cleaner than the rest.

 

And his Johnson's bigger too!

[Vajrahridaya]

And his Johnson's bigger too!

 

Could be, could very well be.

[steve]

As mentioned earlier, I have not read this thread in its entirety so forgive me and feel free to rub my face in it if this question has already been beat to death...

 

How is Dependent Origination different from Mutual Arising?

[forestofemptiness]

Ha ha! That's not the Tao!

 

I have seen the Tao directly, and then I transcended it. Not permanently, but I have that direct experiencing.

 

The Tao is a cosmic essence, sorry this also is dependently originated and without inherent existence.

 

I realized it was a mistaken interpretation of mystic experience and moved on.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ha ha! That's not the Tao!

 

The Tao is considered the unitive true nature of everything that both transcends and encompasses everything in a single field of unity. It is being and non-being, etc.

 

Buddhism transcends this.

 

 

 

 

As mentioned earlier, I have not read this thread in its entirety so forgive me and feel free to rub my face in it if this question has already been beat to death...

 

How is Dependent Origination different from Mutual Arising?

 

You mean mutual co-arising, like co-dependent arising? Meaning non-independence, but interdependence?

 

Then same thing.

[forestofemptiness]

1. No, not Tao. I can see how you might make that mistake, though. In the space of a single hair, there is the difference between heaven and hell.

 

2. Buddha taught the end of suffering, not the beginning of transcendence. If you truly understood dependent origination, you would know that all this transcendence is suffering.

 

The Tao is considered the unitive true nature of everything that both transcends and encompasses everything in a single field of unity. It is being and non-being, etc.

 

Buddhism transcends this.

[Vajrahridaya]

1. No, not Tao. I can see how you might make that mistake, though. In the space of a single hair, there is the difference between heaven and hell.

 

2. Buddha taught the end of suffering, not the beginning of transcendence. If you truly understood dependent origination, you would know that all this transcendence is suffering.

 

Transcends as in is deeper, more explanatory, a deeper view, a subtler comprehension. Does that clarify the meaning for you? Samsara is Nirvana to the realized, there is nothing to transcend.

 

Anyway...

 

I've read plenty of Taoism, and I've experienced plenty of states of meditation that are explained as being an experience of Tao, also just open eye experiences of direct cognition of a flow and oneness, bliss and sense of all inclusiveness. I now interpret these experiences differently with the help of Buddhist view.

 

So...

 

Tao Te Ching (TTC). (道德经 Dao de jing) The book does not specifically define what the Tao is, as a matter of principle. Fundamentally, Tao is undefinable, unlimited, and unnamable.

There was something undefined and complete, existing before Heaven and Earth. How still it was, how formless, standing alone and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere with no danger of being exhausted. It may be regarded as the mother of all things. Truthfully it has no name, but I call it Tao (TTC, chapter 25)

However, there are characteristics of Tao that are commonly noted and used to describe its functioning, particularly as guidelines for practicing te.

Tao is undifferentiated

All distinctions are actually relative comparisons bound together by their mutual reference. Thus (chapter 2) there is no such thing as 'long' except by comparison to 'short' and vice-versa; there is no such thing as 'being' except by comparison to 'non-being'. Because Tao itself has no shape or size, all comparisons fall within it, so there can never be 'real' differences. Often this is used to suggest a neutral, giving attitude - see TTC chapter 49.

Tao returns

"Return" is a complex concept: in one sense it is similar to 'nature abhors a vacuum' - "That with no substance enters there with no space" (TTC chapter 43); in another it reflects the natural cycles of the world (changing of the seasons, births of new generations); in yet a third it implies the natural return to quiescence that is the end result of all action (TTC chapter 14). This concept is often used to argue against forceful action, on the grounds that Tao (and its manifestations) will flow back, circumvent, and eventually undo any attempts to force it into a particular path.

Tao is subtle and quiet

The most important aspects of Tao are its unremarkable, unnoticed, everyday workings - "the softest thing in the world overcomes the hardest" (TTC chapter 43). Many places in the Tao Te Ching point out that dramatic, enticing or noteworthy events may catch the eye and assume significance, but that it is the slow, slight, unobserved and continuous movement of the manifestations of Tao that actually accomplish things. In this context, practitioners are cautioned to be unobtrusive, undemanding, and unsophisticated in their actions, and to know when to let go so that the unseen workings of Tao can carry the act to its completion.

Tao is simultaneously dispassionate and nurturing

Because all beings are manifestations of Tao, Tao - by definition - gives of itself wholly and completely to each. But by the same token, Tao is indifferent to the disposition of mere manifestations. Birth and death and life itself, from the perspective of Tao, are only movements and transformations of form.

 

It references a universal essence that everything is one with, no matter how beyond words it is, Buddhism doesn't agree with this doctrine. A reified non-conceptualness, that everything is a part of, is in no way compatible with Buddhist realization.

 

Try as you might, the Buddha refutes this as the real experience of liberation from Samsara.

[dwai]

It's totally appropriate because I am well versed in what Hindu's believe and how they interpret experience through a lifetime of study and direct experiencing through that framework, or dogma.

 

I'm not Michaelz, but yes I am Hari from E-Sangha.

Most Hindus at this point are of an Advaitin type, either Shaivite, or Vedanta. Unless you are a Hare Krishna. No one is really a total follower of Shamkya non-theism anymore.

 

Yes, all path's are good, but not all paths lead to the same place and not all paths lead to the extinguishing of personal unconscious recycling.

 

I am not Hindu bashing by the way, I actually consider it a beautiful path, but fundamentally wrong in it's interpretation of samsara and meditative experience. As well as it's interpretation of what liberation from samsara is.

I have much more than bookish knowledge. You assume too much.

You must not understand the Buddhas teachings.

I have read refutations and don't agree with them. They don't get it.

Only pratyakka Buddhas before the coming of this current Buddha. I actually have great gaurantees through direct glimpses. Stop assuming that you know my experience. You obviously feel threatened.

Yes, they are important for liberation, very much so. The Buddha made that clear that if you can't hear the dharma, you are lost, no matter how good of a meditator you are, you could get stuck in a formless state after death or get stuck in one of the mindless realms with just a refined meditating body, there are many places as exposed in the 31 planes of existence. It is important to meditate with the Right View, one of the 8 fold noble path.

No Ethnic groups being made fun of here. I just understand quite deeply how flawed the Hindu cosmology is, it's true to a certain point, but still samsaric. In all it's many branches and texts.

Right, but the refutation of Advaita Vedanta, (a new path and a new interpretation influenced heavily by Buddhism by the way, If one were objective about their history), is exactly what's going on here.

The Buddha debated. I know Mikaelz and he does have some direct experiencing and is a good young seeker.

Actually, the Buddha said himself that his teachings was in fact "New". The view that it exposes and it's way of using Tantra, is in fact, quite unique. Get a transmission from a genuine Tantric Master and get some of the juicy off limit texts. The view is exactly what's really important in Buddhism.

 

It's an entirely different state of interpretation from Advaita Vedanta, and thus the cause for spiritual experience is different as well. This, one can get from some direct experiencing and getting with a genuine master of all the wheel turnings. Which I am fortunate enough to have.

Not quite baseless in fact, considering the proximity of each other and the incredible similarities. They even claim the same date and place of conception on earth. But, Dzogchen has clearer practices and many unbroken lineages, as well as many more realizers. Not only that, it genuinely leads to the Jalus (body of light or rainbow body).

Well you must not be reading well. I've studied quite deeply Advaita and Shaivism and was raised Advaita Shaivite my entire life in fact and only left a few years ago, with much hardship to my psyche but I couldn't deny the experiences I was being shown that transcended my previous understanding. If you consider direct mystical experiences hallucinations? Well, I consider everything a hallucination, including you and me.

 

How exactly were you a Hindu?

By Birth? Or by association?

What is your lineage?

Being Hindu implies being immersed in the culture and tradition.

 

Mine is directly traced to Sage Sandilya. I was born into a family of Santanis who have always been thus. My family tradition is Shakta. My Grandfather was an exponent of Vedanta. My maternal grand-uncle is a Sanyasi and Advaitin.

 

Disclaimer: This is not to be construed as credentials that I want to flaunt around etc (lest I be accused of that). My purpose of posting this is to ascertain the level of "Hinduness" of Thunderheart. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is not Hindu by origin, but perhaps by association (perhaps one or both his parents were members of the New-Age movement etc)?

 

Re-cap of what I have posted:

 

emptiness as implied by the principle of dependent origination (meaning everything is connected to everything else and nothing can exist on it's own) establishes that all material things in this universe are empty (lacking own-nature and own-existence).

 

Anything that has a beginning and an end (ie time-bound) is a phenomena and all phenomena (which are objects of our intellect/mind/awareness) are empty (of self-existence and self-nature).

 

Buddist and Vedantic teachings talk about two-truths, Vyavaharika/samvritti Satya and Paramartha Satya (or Lower and Higher truths, respectively). All Material universe is in the realm of lower truth, as everything is time-bound and phenomenal. As a result, it is empty (of self-nature and self-existence).

 

Higher Truth is non-phenomenal (or devoid of phenomena) and is not time or space bound.

Being Higher Truth, Tao, Brahman and Sunyata is also emptiness, by virtue of being empty of phenomena. And since it doesn't logically make sense to consider plurality of these (since there is no objectivity to these in the phenomenal/material sense), it logically makes sense to consider these to be one and the same.

 

There is no causal relationship between Material universe (Phenomena) and Higher Truth (or Ultimate Truth). The relationship is a result of superimposition of categorical frameworks on the Higher Truth. So phenomena are a result of superimposing various categorical frameworks on Higher Truth or Brahman/Tao/Sunyata (B/T/S). So in other words, all phenomena and the material universe is an image, a reflection, an appearance. Hence they are empty. This concept is called Maya in Vedanta.

 

B/T/S is empty. But it is also the fount of all phenomena/objects of material universe by virtue of superimposition.

 

The Categorical framework being applied is by the observer which is objective consciousness. Once Yoga (replace with meditation/tai chi/ba gua/tao gong/what have you) is applied to remove the modifications of the mind, what remains is objectless consciousness. Because it is objectless, it is non-phenomenal. This is called Aatman in Vedanta. This objectless consciousness being non-phenomenal is Higher Truth. Being Higher Truth, it logically makes sense to consider Aatman and Brahman to be one and the same -- Emptiness.

Edited May 29, 2009 by dwai