takaaki
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Everything posted by takaaki
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You truly are devoted to your vocation as a teacher. I am indeed fortunate. I hope you will be patient with me in the study of the Tao Te Ching. My approach is different and probably influenced by family elders. They had always told me that all book learnings, especially the Chinese classics, must have practical relevance. To that end, self-mastery and statecraft were their only areas of focus. My western education drummed into me the same attitude towards learning: execution. The difference between being a success in life and a loser is the ability to make economically-viable ideas work. This is why I would rather see 道 as a Way (of action) than as a proper noun, a name for a mystical thing. In this regard, I hope you will give me some leeway in interpreting the meaning of the verses.
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ChiDragon, Chapter 1 seems to me to be an appropriate opening Chapter to the Tao Te Ching. In this Chapter, 道 does seem to be used as a proper noun; and because of this, you said that 道 may not be translated as "Way". By making it a proper noun, 道 takes on a form of something mystical; especially if it cannot be either defined or perceived. So, I would like to question the basis of argument, if any, for treating 道 as a proper noun. Is there any undeniable evidence of 道 coming across as a proper noun anywhere in the 81 Chapters of this Classic? The idea of a mysticism associated with the Tao Te Ching doesn't appeal to me because it is inconsistent with traditional Chinese scholarship. I regard the Tao Te Ching as a scholarly work of practical relevance as all Chinese classics truly are. Treating 道 as a proper noun is giving the breath of life to a pictograph, a linguistic symbol. Is this a wise thing to do?
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Hey Shanglung, I withdraw my invitation to join in the fray. There will be no continuation of my debate with any forum member on any subject. If you like to study the classical Chinese form of the Tao Te Ching in the 道家学说 forum, please join in. The tea will be on me.
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Yes, quite clear. As a visitor here, I shall defer to your cultural sensitivity. I apologize for hurting your feelings.
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Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to your culture. I regret hurting your feelings and apologize for my lack of sensitivity. -
Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
Ok, I now understand where you are coming from. Since I am a visitor, I will curb my tongue and defer to the culture of forum members here. I shall henceforth restrict my postings to the study of classical Chinese only. Please convey my apologies to forum members who have reported to you that their feelings have been hurt by my lack of sensitivity. -
Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
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Why don't you join in the fray and say what you truly feel but not the words of one who kneels? I think you have much to contribute to the discussion. And I do look forward to your participation. Your well-meaning answers pack Tao power. It is too potent for newcomers to Tao Heaven. It is best you don't use full Chi force. Even a light shove from a Tao Master can break bones and rupture internal organs of the beginner.
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You seem upset by Shanlung's replies. This is a good opportunity for you to practise the Way of the Tao Te Ching. 1. Extinguish your rage before it grows stronger, it is easier to put out a small fire. (Chapter 64). 2. Developing the strength to control your rage is smarter than developing the force to control Shanglung. (Chapter 33). Try it.
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I think Jesus, like Lao Tzu, is folklore. But what is the point you have been trying to make about me viz a viz the "American Taoist"? I don't understand exactly what you are accusing me of. Please be direct and clear so that I get it. Using your Jesus example, are you saying that I am creating this idea of the American Taoist for the purpose of distorting and ridiculing the image of Americans and Taoists?
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Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
Good lord! That was exactly what I thought Dawei could be: a westerner with a Chinese wife. My English (which is flawed with wrong tenses) is better than his. So, English can't be his mother tongue. He must be European. I have to admit that he sure can give you a run for your money arguing about the ancient texts. His ability at doing that gave me the impression that he could be a Chinaman. -
I am not proving that you lied. It could very well have slipped your mind. But I needed to prove that I did not put words in your mouth. Even then, if I have misunderstood your words, I apologize. Lifted from Post No. 143 in "The Way (道)of Living": Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:12 AM takaaki, on 20 Jan 2013 - 00:02, said: Is it important to you that those three treasures you identified above are precisely what the Chinese text says? Even the Chinese themselves are not in agreement on what the Chinese text says. Now you are getting personal. Hehehe. No, it's really not important what the original (whatever that is) text says. What matters to me more than anything else is how does what I have just read apply to my life. There is much in the TTC that doesn't effect my life as I have no desire of ruling the world. But I do want to find the best ways to life my life with the greatest amount of freedom possible and without causing contention with others.
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Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
Yes, very nice. I wish we have some fine 龍井茶 to add to our enjoyment of this lesson. It is unfortunate that we cannot make ourselves understood to our western members who insist that Classical Chinese is not inaccessible to them. Dawei (is he Chinese?) is compounding the problem by his unsympathetic attitude towards our reasoning making us look like stodgy Kung Fu masters intent on keeping Chinese treasures within China. The biggest culprits are the Chinese intellectuals like John Wu, Gia Fu Feng, and Lin Yutang whose translations are ridiculous from my point of view. But they are luminaries with great stature in the west. I know, and I will leave you to get this across to our beloved Marblehead in your patient diplomatic way. The Chinese don't have sole possession of human wisdom. To assert this would be truly mad. Even bees have possession of the Tao wisdom, that we Chinese don't have, to live harmoniously together (in their hives) and cooperate effectively. And they don't need classical Chinese to access the Tao Te Ching! I do not maintain that classical Chinese is the key to unlock secrets in the Tao Te Ching. Actually, its vault of wisdom is empty. What I have been saying is this: the key to unlock the secrets of classical Chinese is the Chinaman and no other. -
With 1.3 million mouths to feed, the Government of China has to root out wasteful superstitions. And the climate at Tsinghua University's School of Humanities and Social Sciences is not as conducive as that in the West?
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You have stated before, when I asked, that it was not important to you even if the English version of the Tao Te Ching that you use has no connection to the Chinese text. I considered your answer intelligent even though I had doubts you realized how clever your answer was. No, I don't believe the Chinese have sole ownership to intuitional human thoughts. My Doberman is sharp and knows my every move even before I become conscious of it. Your above comments show that I still have not been successful in making myself understood. I won't flog a dead horse. Let's blame it on lousy ability at communication. I see myself as Jesus preaching to the multitude. Time and time again, the multitude would get riled and upset and want to throw me out. I have come to understand Jesus' difficult time with the Pharisees and high priests who were incensed with him the way the folks here are with me. But what I cannot get is how come a smart guy like Jesus got himself nailed to the cross? I am sure he was smart enough to know when to stop riling the mods in Jerusalem. And you say?
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Scholastic Study of the Received Version of the Tao Te Ching.
takaaki replied to ChiDragon's topic in 道家学说
Yes, the lettuce wrap is good. I like to put a piece of Chinese sausage (imported from Hong Kong) in the wrap to kick it up a notch. Wax duck and preserved meat (pork belly) are must haves, and a noodle dish for longetivity. Last but not least, a western touch: X.O. Hennessy Cognac for Yum Seng or Chines New Year can never be right! I would never tell the French that the Chinese can also produce as good brandy as the French. Why won't they accept that English can never capture the Chinese Tao Te Ching? Anyway, let's study. I would like your review on Chapter 42 with regard to your interpretation of the following lines: 8. 唯孤、寡、不穀， 8. Are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain. Only Loneliness, Celibacy, Unkind, 9. 而王公以為稱， 9. Yet kings and dukes take these as their names. Are used by the kings and dukes to address themselves. English words are very specific in their meanings. Thus, orphan is just that; and widow is widow and not spinster. However, 孤 is not "orphan" although it is used for denoting orphan in vernacular usage. A closer meaning is "being alone". The same applies to 寡 which is not widow. It is more like "removed from social rank" that she had before as a wife, a person with social significance in Chinese society. A king or emperor would have the pronoun of 寡人, a royal personage removed from the general populace and has no social rank because, in his case, he is above the common herd. It is true that people hate to be left out (like orphans), without social status (like widows), and have no economic relevance in society. And yet, this is exactly the lot of the aristocrat - an exclusive life apart from the maddening crowd and spared the horror of having to work for a living. What do you say? -
So, what you are essentially saying is that the English-speaking world is saving the Tao Te Ching from being destroyed by the Chinese. How wonderful. I rest my case.
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It is quite alright to remove me from the forum which is privately owned. The owner has the same power of ex-communication as the Catholic Pope at the Vatican. I have stated my truth that the English version of the Tao Te Ching is not the Chinese version in terms of a fundamental moral message. I am neither trying to sell the Chinese version in this forum nor to invalidate the English version that forum members use for discussion here. It is fun to reflect on the English verses and, to some, they offer philosophical solace. To me, as a Chinese, I feel the need to preserve the dignity of the Tao Te Ching, a serious text with a powerful message to rid society - not just among Chinese but wherever people live together - of ignorance and put an end to social injustice. I wanted to point this out to the world here, and elsewhere. And for this, I am accused of being disrespectful. Disrespectful to whom? To those who are practising intellectual imperialism? Imperialists are not just westerners stomping into China, they are also people who would invade Chinese literature, anglicize it and not only appropriate it as their own but also put their stamp of authority on the distorted Classic and proclaim it the real stuff. And this is not disrespectful?
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Disrespecting members? Can you produce the incriminating posts that support the accusation?
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No. You are a nice guy. You want to join the Tao party. You will have many like-minded friends here.
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You are really good. I need to check you out. I can't believe there can be more than one of me.
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Good point. I really love it when people ask scholarly questions. We must not let the bad guys in.
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We found you!
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I don't do translations. How can I when I have repeatedly stated that it is not possible to do that with the Tao Te Ching. I just wanted to compare the Chinese text with this quaint nursery school-like statement of "Tao produces One, One produces two, two produces three...."
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I didn't mean to be disrespectful. Throwing the Dao into the rubbish bin is another way of saying keeping the mind free from any influence. You need to specify which version of the Tao Te Ching you are referring to. I suppose you are talking about one of the English versions. The Tao Te Ching, in Chinese, is reflective composition thick in metaphors using characters each of which has multiple meanings. For example, over in the Tao Te Ching forum on the study of Chapter 10, two verses were translated into English as follows: In the opening and shutting of heaven's gates, Are you able to play the feminine part? ChiDragon, a Chinese, guided by his reading of the Chinese text, said that the above verses meant to ask whether one, in perceiving the outer world through the gates of one's senses, could stay unperturbed. Aaron, a westerner who is an authority on the Tao Te Ching having studied it for twenty years, guided by his cultural background, said that the above verses meant to ask whether one could play the woman's part in sexual intercourse. I reiterate my assumption that you are again referring to the English version of the Tao Te Ching. The Chinese version, which was written in ancient China, is steeped in Chinese culture and uses things, found only in China, as metaphors. "Tao" and "virtue" are as peculiar as chopsticks and dim sum. You would insist that you have western equivalents for eating implements and food snack and proceed to prove it by producing a set of knife and fork and a hamburger. There is nothing wrong with studying the English version of the Tao Te Ching. But why would you insist that the English Tao Te Ching is the Chinese Tao Te Ching? I don't know what to call you but I am sure no American, no matter how naive, would be dumb enough to tell me to my face that the hamburger he stuffs into his mouth is a dim sum.
