forestofclarity

I feel these may have different goals. For many people, it is difficult to relax and open with a lot of pain and this may end up causing people to "harden" in a way that may be inconsistent with certain styles of practice that focus on opening, relaxing, and listening. On the other hand, this harder style may be just the thing for someone who wants a high pain tolerance and/or wants to be a fighter.

Hopefully you do now. Let us know if there are any issues-- it's buggy on my end right now.

I've actually been listening to Mark's stuff on the side. My plate is pretty full with practice stuff, so I'm not sure how far I will be able to incorporate his stuff or if it conflicts with my own practices. However, I thought I'd make a few comments to possibly promote some discussion. It sounds like his stuff is very Tantric. Bardon was one of the first paths I tried way back in the day, so it is interesting to see how someone has incorporated it into daily practice. I'm not sure if it is reasonable to segregate out the Elastic Force qigong stuff or not, because to practice his system would really be a commitment. I do like how he emphasizes the fundamental point of feeling into the various energies as opposed to just imagining them. I'd be curious if he has been able to demonstrate any external energy emission as opposed to body mechanics/fascia. The book is more of a skeleton than a set of explanations. I've noticed that each exercise listed in the book does have a correlating Youtube video that explains it. If I keep at it, maybe I'll start a list of videos that walk through the order. His marrow washing exercise is interesting because Waysun Liao teaches a similar method (which one can find in the Tai Chi Classics, or at least the older editions, not sure if it has been removed). I'm not sure if it is exactly the same, I would have to review the methods. Mark says it is for a short term boost, while Master Liao seems to indicate it is for storage. Bruce Frantzis claimed it came from White Crane and is used for power and can be destabilizing. I think it is interesting how Mark looks to store energy in the "akasha" which I haven't heard of outside of Tantric circles. A bit of a side note, but it seems both Damo and Adam Mizner studied with him. Damo seems to have scrubbed away any mention of him, and as far as I know, Adam acknowledges him as a teacher. I wonder what this is all about (or if it is just in my own imagination).

One thing I wish I knew earlier is often you will think of a teacher who gives you a practice. When I take refuge, I still think of my initial preceptor. In that case, I held out for 1) a monk; 2) I respected; and 3) who offered it in person. To my surprise that turned out to be Bhante Gunaratana, whose book actually got me started with meditation. I'm glad I did because I think about him a lot. When I practice formal and informal meditation, there is a flavor of my primary teachers in there. I also hear their voices, their teachings, their advice. Hearing the description is interesting. A lot of people with energy shake their legs like that when sitting, and I used to get reprimanded for it. "But I'm NOT doing anything," I would protest. "It just happens!" If I had to guess, it is a natural involuntary movement of the muscles that may trigger further involuntary movements (i.e. zifagong).

And to add on to this excellent statement, sitting in the view of no view doesn't mean doing nothing. It actually allows the space for dynamic expression or spontaneous action from a place of greater alignment as opposed to the haphazard habits of ego-mind.

You are going to get different answers depending on who you ask. Many say they are compatible, and many teachers and masters have been recognized across multiple traditions (such as Master Nan). Many Vajrayana teachers, lamas, and students also do taiji, qigong, and/or practice Traditional Chinese medicine and other modalities. Some of these people are very serious and some of them are new age mix-and-matchers. Less common are people who say they are incompatible on both sides. They also tend to presume their specific line/teaching/tradition is correct and all others are wrong, so it would make sense. These tend to be more serious practitioners in their specific tradition. Usually, it is said that Buddhists go from Xing to Ming and Daoists from Ming to Xing. I think this is on point in certain ways considering Chan and Daoism. However, it is also not really so clear cut. I don't think the three groups necessarily follow the same development pattern. I don't think even within the three groups there is the same development pattern or even widespread agreement. For example, a Gelugpa Tantric practitioner is going to have a different path than a Dzogchenpa. A lot of Daoists cannot agree on basic things such as what a dan tian is or what the elixer is. Between the groups, Vajrayaya people don't usually develop external qi emission and I haven't heard of people outside of Vajrayana going into thukdam. Classic Zen shares some with each, such as the development of the hara (with Daoism) and the focus on Xing (with Vajrayana). I think different people have different karmic links that will bring them to different schools. I think that each school has its batch of authentic and inauthentic teachers, but at core they are living traditions with established lineages.

The resources here are made by members in their individual capacity and is not an endorsement by TheDaoBums. Here is my eclectic collection of helpful resources I've found over the years. I have been practicing primarily in Buddhist circles since 2004, but I have also taken many courses on Taiji, Xingyi, and Qigong. I tend to learn in person and on retreat, but there are some books and videos that might be helpful as well. Concentration/Background: https://joy.tergar.org https://fullybeing.org The Experience of Samadhi by Richard Shankman Book Mahamudra/Dzogchen: https://vajrayana.tergar.org https://tsoknyirinpoche.org https://www.lotsawahouse.org/ Bon/Tsa Lung (Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche: Bon Dzogchen): https://ligmincha.org/ Awakening the Sacred Body by Tenzin Wangyal Tummo (Gelug): Advaita: Feeling the Qi: Daoism:

If anyone is interested in learning about tummo, the information is becoming more open. It is not a stand alone practice, but one part of a larger whole.

Sam Bercholz, the founder of Shambhala publications, had an NDE where he went to hell. In one location, there was a terrible and cruel tyrant who, during his life, has killed and tortured countless people under his reign. He was reborn in the shape of a mountain who was undergoing tremendous suffering due to the fires and discomforts of hell. Part of this was that his body was writhing and alive, composed of his followers who participated in the terrors. In addition, his body was ALSO composed of all the people who hated him, fusing together with him in their human life and the next life. In other words, hatred fuses us to the object of our hatred as much as devoted glee. Not saying this should be taken literally, but feeding negativity for negativity's sake seems pointless. If anything, the faults of samsara should fuel renunciation from its promises, compassion for those in ignorance, and a stark determination to seek enlightenment so one can truly benefit sentient beings. The knowledge of the suffering of samsara is presented as the first step of the spiritual path, not the last.

That is definitely an issue with increasing the power to the system. Whatever is there-- good, bad or ugly, tends to get amplified. This is likely one reason why certain traditions don't teach these openly without initiation and taking ethical vows and so on.

The old Kunlun craze was something--- the Lama DORJE THUNDERBOLT movie/website where he walked around in vaguely Tibetan robes evidently channeling qi into screaming women. That armies died in order to learn the mysterious Red Phoenix technique. People looking for dream initiation. Horror movies. Clones. Conspiracies of the highest order. I agree with what Sahaja said, but would add that involuntary movements are widely known across traditions and tend to pop up even during intensive concentration and Vipassana retreats.

I think that pain and suffering is an indication of a misalignment-- physical, mental, and/or spiritual. I also think that all three are connected and interdependent. Some pain and illness can be addressed in ways put forth here, and some of it has deeper, karmic roots. Suffering can always be addressed. Well said!

Mod Note: Off topic discussion moved here:

I thought Isaac Newton would be the most famous person to have studied Hermeticism.

The cash was generally for medical treatments, healings, pills, opening energetic channels, introductions, seminars, etc. This has come up a number of times over the history of TDB. I've had many conversations over the years, it's just something that stuck in my mind. In the esoteric arts realm, I've discovered a lot of times there are layered approached to teaching, with key teachings often not being transmitted at all or only to a few select students. Sometimes false or modified teachings are given, etc, especially to the public or Westerners. I remember that we had a whole discussion some years ago and the bottom line from Rudi was that if one couldn't emit electric qi and one's students couldn't emit electric qi, it didn't count.

Surrender seems to be a large part of it. It is not always clear what is being surrendered. Typically, it refers to the acquired mind (識神) or shi shen, the series of habits and ways of doings things that we've picked up over our lifetime or many lifetimes. Under it, the yuan shen (元神), is primordially free and connected to the larger whole. I often think of the TTC 48 on this (trans Derek Lin) Pursue knowledge, daily gain Pursue Tao, daily loss Loss and more loss Until one reaches non-action With non-action, there is nothing one cannot do Take the world by constantly applying non-interference The one who interferes is not qualified to take the world

It's the classic spirit of first hand experimentation and free inquiry that will not be limited by rules and limits. I think it is a good thing!

Classic Daobums answer! Thanks, I'll check it out when I have some time.

There is also a claim that this group teaches one to be a conduit rather than a generator, so very few ever develop the ability to emit qi independent of the teacher.

Does any of this ever involve large amounts of cash for treatments, activation of dan tian, etc.? I remember the earlier qi emission craze on TDB, and it usually involved very large sums of cash at some point.

There are several benefits: increased physical health, less need for food/sleep, mental calmness, less clinging, increased meditative stability, etc. It is not a matter of the dan tian per se but a healthy subtle energy system, of which the LDT is a part. However, in appears to me that if one cultivates wisdom, then the subtle body develops spontaneously. Some Buddhist schools are more direct or indirect depending.

I have gotten instructions from a Soto person that was very close to Damo's. And Meido Roshi teaches it, but his lineage also includes martial arts. He wrote a book with some instruction on it. https://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/meido-moore/hidden-zen.html

This is just the old "are we building it or filling it argument" that every system with subtle body practices has. From the article: I was noting in the Mark Rasmus thread about this also. Zen in my mind really starts at the root and then extends into the body, so I think this is a difference.

Thanks, I appreciate the solid discussion. My primary practice is Buddhist, but I have an on-again, off-again relationship with Taiji and Taoist practices. The mechanics of my Taiji are coming together, so I was wondering a bit about the chemistry. It is interesting to read your POV because it sort of mirrors the Buddhist POV I am familiar with, but Daoists seem to go from body up and Buddhist practice from mind essence down IME. I've seen about 4 approaches in Buddhist and Daoist teachings over the years: 1. Fixating practices. 2. Non-fixating practices. Like Zen. 3. Both. More of the Vajrayana approach. 4. Neither. For me, the breath and attention both naturally sank into the lower part of the my body on its own over time doing normal meditation practice. In Damo's teaching, it is similar--- there is no forcing or forming. Rather, the breath and attention naturally settles into the dan tian region. I've also found there are channels and formations that seem to build off this on their own. I haven't heard of any forcible-type paths, but I do think some of the Daoist teachers tend to be more fixation oriented. This seems wise and in line with most recommendations I am familiar with. I think this is an issue with some Daoists--- the energy increases and it agitates the mental habits.

Welcome!