steve

I'm going to speak of faith in the sense of religious faith - a belief in something in the absence of or contrary to available proof. I am not speaking of confidence or love. This type of faith to me is a weakness. It's a desire to follow an authority in the absence of knowing. A need to believe in something gratuitously, with no possibility of verification. An unwillingness to question or doubt. Faith is something used by those with authority to exploit others. It is a mechanism by which people can be manipulated. I try not to believe in things. If I can know something, there is no need for belief. If I cannot know something, belief is superfluous and is usually of little value. I'd prefer to know or remain agnostic and doubt, until the opportunity to know arises. If you investigate the process of thought very deeply and patiently over time, most things can be know and there is little need or benefit for faith and belief. Just my limited view... I don't intend to offend or insult any one.

It sounds as if you expected something to change - why?

If you are referring to "Who am I?" and so on, from Buddy's original post - that line of questioning is the central method in Advaita Vedanta - a part of Hinduism actually, not Buddhism. Buddhism arose from Hinduism but took the inquiry in a different direction for the most part. Furthermore, anyone with any real interest in true spirituality and awakening must face those very questions at some point in their development... That is the point where a teacher or guru is no longer of any value. These are questions only the individual can answer through persistent investigation. These questions completely took me over after practicing Dao cultivation for about 3 years. In fact, I put my practice on hold for a while. Once I dealt with these questions satisfactorily, I got back to the cultivation regimen but it took a while and a lot of work. Camus wrote that whether or not to commit suicide is the only true philosophical question. I believe that "Who am I?" is the only true spiritual/philosophical question because "I" ask all the other questions, including - should I commit suicide?

You are correct. In terms of the cultivation practices I would guess that only a small percentage of the members of this forum train in traditional systems with supervision by experienced teachers.

Funny, all this time I thought it was the hat...

Mantis, What are your goals? There are many, many systems. Followers of each will speak of their strengths, others may speak of their weaknesses. They all have something to offer to your thoughts, your ego. The part of you that has you convinced that you are lacking something. Can you find out what it is that you are lacking? Where it is that you want to go? What you will do when you get it or get there? Who is it, really, who needs something or needs to go somewhere? Meditation of any variety is useful if it allows the thoughts to quiet and allows you to investigate how the mind works. I think that the first question is, what is it that you want? The question will generally give you the answer if you study it deeply. Good luck, Steve

Right now I'm running a poll in this sub-forum on how frequently people would like to read new books. I plan to close the poll on Sunday and that will determine how frequently we'll read new books. My thought would be to select a new book ~ 6 weeks before it is to be discussed. That gives everyone 2 weeks to obtain the book and another 4 weeks to read the book before we begin discussion. You don't have to complete the book before discussion begins but, depending on the book, that could be advantageous... I do plan on trying to divide up each book into chapters or sections and discuss it in parts (as I've already done for the first book). In most book clubs, the participants read the entire book before discussing it. Please check back on Sunday or Monday for the final word. Obviously, the fewer books we read per year, the more time we can take with each. Also, we can always modify the logistics as we go along... PS - My feet can be quite numb when necessary...

I like the freedom of posting on and off topic. I'd be bored with strictly Daoism discussion - even if we could agree on what that means. Sometimes, a particular topic gets discussed to death and I just tune out if it doesn't interest me. I think that keeping the discussion unpredictable, lively, and organic through more freedom is much more in keeping with my interpretation of the Daoist spirit than it would be to restrict or try and direct the discussion. The forum isn't so much about the subject of Daoism as it is a group of people leaning in a Daoist direction hanging out together. At least that's how it appears. Furthermore, I've learned nearly as much about what Daoism means from Indian, Japanese, English, and American sources (most not writing or speaking on the subject of Daoism at all) as from Chinese (Daoist) sources and practices. That sounds ridiculous (and I may be) but it's the truth. Daoism is not contained within the word, concept, culture, or belief system. The word is NOT the thing. This is why the inner cultivation aspect is so critical. Daoism goes way beyond the concepts and ideas (which are thoughts) and can be found in absolutely everything.

To all members who may be interested in participating in the Tao Bums online Book Club: We are currently running a poll to determine how frequently to review new books. Please take a moment to vote for your preference in the Book Club sub-forum. The poll will continue until Sunday 2/17. Thanks for your interest.

Thanks Sean! I should've thought of that...

So far it looks like one book every other month will be the decision. It's been 5 days now since the poll started and I'll arbitrarily select Sunday as the closing date so that we can move forward. thanks to those who took the time to vote.

From the poll so far it looks like we will end up reading one book every two to three months. I'll give the poll at least a full week but it looks like our second book won't be discussed until May, at the earliest. Please keep that in mind as you think about selections for the next book. I will start a new thread once we determine the final results of the poll and will outline some new dates for making the selection and so on... Most likely, we will pick the next book in mid March so the 2-3 weeks it takes to get it, for some of us, will still leave us 3-4 weeks to read and prepare.

It sounds like an intense experience. Every time I have a sensory hallucination of some sort during or after meditation, my teacher tells me to ignore it and return to the first point. All of these images are created by the thoughts and are distractions. They are the product of our conditioning, desires, expectations, fears, and so on. As the thoughts quiet, the deeper ones come forth and can be pretty intense and unexpected. It's certainly possible that your experience was other than that but that has been my training so far....

Hi Jesse, Here are a few questions regarding inner cultivation for the Dragon Gate Sect Master: 1. Who is it that is practicing cultivation? If I recognize that "I" am just the thought that has chosen to act as overseer to the other thoughts, what is the benefit of cultivation and who benefits? 2. What are the names (preferrably Hanzi, pinyin, and English translation) of the points of the microcosmic orbit that the Dragon Gate students develop in their practice? Is it possible to give a summary of the points and in what order they are introduced? What are the siginificance of each of these points? Is he able to give us an overview or summary of the process of cultivation from the beginning to the higher levels? 3. What role, if any, does martial training in taijiquan, taijijian, or other martial arts play in his tradition? 4. What role does standing or walking meditation play in his tradition, if any? 5. Is there a specific diet that he recommends for those of us living in the real world and trying to maintain our cultivation regimen? 6. Does his tradition teach any physical exercises (qigong, martial,...) for physical fitness, internal health, and so on? Questions for the White Cloud Master: 1. What is it that defines a Daoist historically? What I mean is, what is most important and what is shared by Daoists in the historical context? Is it a belief in certain gods? Is it political beliefs? Economic beliefs? Philosophical beliefs? Culture? Language? Or is it the practice of internal cultivation? 2. How confident can we be that the current Daoist traditions truly reflect the traditions that existed prior to the beginning of the 20th century? So much was destroyed or forced undergroud by the wars and cultural revolution of the 20th century that many believe the old traditions were lost and the new versions are reconstructions. 3. Is music used in the traditions on a regular basis? If so, is there any way that we can find samples? 4. What is the current relationship between the Daoist temples and the general population? Is Daoism currently playing an active role in the lives of younger Chinese? Thanks very much for this opportunity Jesse! Can ask you a question, Jesse? What are you currently doing and how is it that you have come to have this opportunity? Best regards, Steve

My first clue was through reading Waysun Liao's book about the Taiji Classics. In the beginning he advises using the imagination. It gradually becomes more and more accessible with practice. Chanwu's advice is very good.

Which style do you sing? The high stuff or the low stuff? How in the world did you figure it out?!

Great link, I always wondered what the hell a rabbit with a pancake on his head meant. I guess I just felt foolish asking the question! I love the new avatar!

Excellent question - I think that the question itself is what is most important and is where you will likely find the answer for you as you ponder it ... I can only speak to my experience: I've been derailed from my Dao meditation practice a few times. Sometimes very painful, frightening, or unpleasant feelings, memories, images arise. On occasion they have been disturbing enough to cause me to stop for a while. It has really shaken up my life at times. I talk to my shifu and eventually get back on track. More recently, I've been exploring the "I am" question for about a year and reached the point where it seemed foolish to continue to practice the Dao meditation because, after all, who is it that is practicing? for what purpose? That sort of thing got me off course for months. Again, I've come back. Can't really say why - it seems that it feels right. Good luck with your search - that's really all that counts in the long run.

The other funny thing is the number of "Daoists" from Wudang now settling around the world to carry on their Daoist traditions. I think you need to take many of them with a grain of salt. Some may be legitimate, others are probably less so...

You must be looking at the same lake I can see outside my office window... Jane - pretty slick... assuming the extra syllable was intentional...

Consumer consumed Observer one with observed Green lake cold and deep

Has a book club ever been tried on the forum? I think it could be fun and valuable.