steve

RAOTFLMFAO Thank you for that

Your comments about Manitou's relationship are just a reflection of your ignorance and lack of life experience. Often, the only people who can understand and support each other are those who have experienced similar trauma. That is why there are support groups for traumatic experiences (veterans, rape, murder, PTSD, cancer, depression, addiction, and on and on...). A non-addict can never understand the pain and suffering of an addict fully, hence they usually are unable to ride out the hellish ups and downs associated with living with a recovering addict. Recovering addicts are generally the best support possible for each other. That is fact, your opinion and my opinion don't matter.

No one needs to say it, all you need to do is open your eyes and mind and heart. The Tao is not something that you or anyone else defines with words or opinions. The Tao is that which is, all around us and inside us, always. Your desire to hide from your heart, society, and the opposite (or same) gender is also part of the Tao but does not cause money, sex, marriage, career, family, children, etc... to cease to be a part of it. If those things were not part of the Tao, you would not exist, nor any of us. You need to get out of your mind and into your life a little, if you can't see this already.

I look at attachment as having a quality of identifying with, linking one's happiness or fulfillment to the outcome. Dedication can be present, a conscious decision to remain focused and involved, without linking it to one's happiness. In this way, attachment and dedication are different for me. I think the Dalai Lama is both dedicated and attached. He is human after all. I think all humans have attachments. Some try to recognize and let them go, others don't. They are never gone entirely, IMO, just more subtle, less consuming, or better hidden. Please do not live your life according to my expectations or standards. I've never asked you to do that intentionally, and if I have done so unintentionally, please forgive me and disregard that message. It is never selfish for me to live my life exactly as I see fit. Selfishness arises when I expect others to live their lives as I see fit. My responses to your posts have mostly been with the intention of helping you to see aspects that you may have overlooked or not yet seen. Furthermore, your comments or the way in which they are delivered have the distinct quality of communicating to others that they should be living their lives according to your expectations and standards. I am simply sharing alternative perspectives to this. You have a telling way of projecting your dissatisfaction with self toward others. It is very clear in your posts. You have been telling everyone on this forum, in a relatively abrupt and rude manner, that their ways are crap and yours is the only way. Now you tell me that you shouldn't live your life according to my expectations when I never suggested that you do so. Can you see what's going on there? The first step on the path to cultivation, enlightenment, whatever word you like, is to look carefully at yourself. This can be done anywhere - India, Tibet, New York, prison, it doesn't matter. You're not doing that work at all yet, you're just looking outside yourself. Trying to find the best system, guru, place to learn. All that is fluff. Wherever you end up, with whatever guru or method, you will ultimately be faced with the task of looking deeply at yourself and getting to know what you/that is. "I can think. I can wait. I can fast." Siddhartha by Hesse

If all is impermanent, then realization is impermanent. If any realization is permanent, then ALL is not impermanent. This is the trap - to believe Buddhahood to be the one permanent thing, Buddhists cling to a goal of attaining it. Even that must be let go for us to approach liberation. I think this is addressed by the koan - If you see the Buddha in the road KILL HIM! Now I'm not a Buddhist, mind you, and I'm not at all well versed in scripture and doctrine and metaphysical debate so you can argue circles around me. But I believe this is a critical and subtle attachment that many Buddhists get stuck on. And I don't mean to imply that you are stuck on it because I really don't know you at all, but I think many are.

Nicely said

You're right, even Buddhahood is illusory, if it's all impermanent, its ALL impermanent. That's the irony. But it is still worth the game because its not about the end. Its not about whether things last or not. Its about the fact they are now. Life is now. Living is now and now is eternal. It is always now, never tomorrow and never yesterday. So you live forever if you live NOW. To use Alan Watts' beautiful analogy, you don't go to the symphony just to hear the final chord. You go to listen to the music, each note and the transition to the next. Its about the rhythm and the intervals, not the notes. Another great story - Once, Mullah Nasruddin bought a violin. And he began to play. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... Same note, same string, over and over. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.... After a few hours his wife was at her wits' end. "Nasruddin!" she screamed. NEEE.. Nasruddin put down the bow. "Yes dear?" "Why do you play the same note? It's driving me crazy! All the real violin players move their fingers up and down, play on different strings! Why don't you play like they do?" "Well dear, I know why they go up and down and try all different strings." "Why is that?" "They're looking for "this" note! And he picked up his bow and resumed his playing. NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE....

Some nice comments in this thread - awareness, mindfulness, non-judgement - beautiful stuff.

Amen. Life is precious exactly because of death. Beautiful things like family, children, friendships, lovers, are precious because they will be gone someday. It is the way of things - Taji. If you choose not to live because you fear death, if you choose not to love because you fear loss, what a dreary life you will lead. I feel sorry for you but I do understand. An insulated life in a little safe, padded box doesn't seem like it will be painful or threatening but life is not without pain or loss even for the masters. And why so much talk about the masters anyway? They are themselves, we are ourselves. It is not my goal to become them but to become me! And no one can show me how to be me but me.

Double post

Yeah, I agree there are others (and I'd love to hear some of your group-huggy thoughts, seriously) but I also like to remind myself of the negative reasons as well - otherwise, I might get a big head!

Thanks Kate - yup, a small fissure is now forming just above Bai Hui - I thought it was opening due to successful cultivation but methinks it's just cranial swelling... Apech's last post does a pretty good job addressing your questions but I'll add a bit more. 1. I agree that scientific reporting does not consistently and explicitly address the Heisenberg effect and that's for a few reasons - a. in science, something that is a basic principle and universally agreed upon is not restated with each new experiment. It is assumed that everyone recognizes this principle to be in effect and affecting all experimental results - b. To my knowledge we have not really figured out how to deal with the observer influence effect entirely. Depending on experimental design there are some very elegant solutions and in other systems they are just there. The bottom line is, as Apech emphasized, that the scientific method still works and gives reproducible, predictable, measurable, and applicable results. 2. Excellent point and I do think there is a lot of truth there. I see it every day. And in the medical profession, there are very strong measures in place to try and identify any time someone is receiving any financial support from any commercial source. This is disclosed at every gathering of researchers and in every peer reviewed journal. And of course it still has an effect on what people study and the results. We'd be blind and foolish to claim otherwise. Every human being is affected by influence, whether it be external or internal. Money is a potent influence as is prestige, self-expectations, and job security, and so on. I agree with Apech that the majority of scientists are truth seekers and try hard to limit distraction and corruption in their work. Some will always be present and some are very prone to it. Similarly, Daoists and other followers of empiric and experiential methods are equally likely to be affected by external and internal influence. At least in the scientific world it is usually easily recognizable and often measureable as in junk science (Immortal4life is an expert on this) and large scale corruption (ie big Pharm and the US Congress). Sadly, it is often much more harmful in this arena. Daoists and other empiric "scientists" on the other hand, have absolutely no way of measuring, testing, or demonstrating their discoveries in an "objective" fashion - that is, a demonstration that is independently verifiable, reproducible, and having predictive properties as in the requirements of the scientific method. All internal experience could be a product of our imagination or an implant from an alien or communication with spirits, ancestors, immortals, etc... It cannot be verified for or against. It is a gratuitous assertion. If you think that our expectations, hopes, and dreams are not reflected in our internal experience during Daoist meditation (and any other method) then you are kidding yourself. That doesn't mean these experiences are not "real" or valuable but everything we see and experience and cultivate could simply be a product of our expectations - no way to tell yea or nay. My Daoist meditation teacher forbids his students from discussing their progress with each other early in their training for just this reason. This prohibition is loosened as time and skill progresses. And just like in science, Daoist methods produce results, even though the methods have all the weaknesses I mentioned. I couldn't agree with you more on this point. Many of our technological advancements have the ultimate effect of throwing nature out of balance and changing human kind, mostly for the worse, in my opinion. Sure, our lives are easier, we have more food, less disease, live longer, and so on. But is this really human? We are anxious, poisoned, neurotic, and physically weak. We are overfed and underactive. We work ourselves literally to death for a goal that we never quite reach. The earth is so dramatically out of balance that it takes all of our resources to try to maintain this imbalance (ie overpopulation fed by engineered food and water sources which cause further imbalanced overpopulation and so on - a vicious cycle). So I agree with you completely on this point, Taomeow. And many of my colleagues and friends do as well. I think many of us see this and are making positive changes in our lives to address it. It can only be addressed on an individual basis and perhaps some day a critical mass will be reached and real, large scale change will occur. And perhaps not. Our world truly is sick and dying and I don't believe technology can save us. I think it is more likely to destroy itself - an example of nature policing herself and restoring balance. This is why my current favorite quotation comes from Jiddu Krishnamurti and I'll paraphrase it - It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to such a profoundly sick society.

One can be lonely in a room full of friends. One can be completely immune to loneliness without any human contact. No need to bother with imaginary goals. Life is practice. Poetry is practice. That's the secret you may find after spending a few decades in a cave. How much time do you think Chia spends training when he's creating 36 DVD's and writing dozens of books? You're quite entertaining, BOL, thanks for your contributions.

I'm not an -ist of any sort, although my work is in the scientific arena and my philosophy/psychology/cultivation in the Daoist arena. That said, I feel obligated to address the above as I think they mis-characterize Western science and Daoist "science." 1. Science has recognized interdependence and the lack of objectivity since Heisenberg in 1925. This has served as the foundation for Quantum mechanics and some of the most important advancements in the 20th and 21st centuries. Certainly this effect is often intentionally ignored as it is often not significant enough to effect outcomes and results. Pretending there is objectivity, as you assert, is not a limitation in scientific advancement - I think that's pretty clear by the results. On the other hand, I agree in the importance of acknowledging the spirit in my own life but it is not measurable in such a way as to incorporate it in the Western scientific method currently. There are plenty of Western scientists exploring this area, however, such as Amit Goswami, John Hagelin, David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and many others. 2. I think it is inaccurate to say the "science" is on any payroll. Certainly dollars play a critical role in many of those using the scientific method and enormous corruption exists. Nevertheless, the method itself is effective when properly implemented and I think it is unfair to accuse the entire discipline of corruption. There are many people devoting their lives to real scientific inquiry with intentions as pure as the purest Daoist sage. I have worked with many personally. 3. The scientific method is so rigorous that no unifying theory has yet to be found. Nevertheless, the scientific method is damn effective (for better or worse) and that is beyond reasonable challenge. The lack of a unifying theory does not negate the method - to the contrary, it reinforces its validity, consistency, and integrity. The unifying theory in Daoism would not qualify as a theory in terms of the scientific method. It works in the realm of Daoist thought, metaphysics, cultivation, ritual, and so on but is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word. It cannot be submitted to observable and reproducible experimental design therefore it is empiric and experiential. Comparison of Western scientific methods and Daoist methods is meaningless - apples and oranges. In fact, I believe that the universe will forever elude a unifying scientific theory. I don't think that the human mind and it's methods of classification and communication are capable of capturing the nature of reality in an equation. That said, string theory is pretty damn interesting stuff. All that said - I would agree with your co-creation leanings. I respect the power and value of science and I despise how it is exploited for profit and power. I respect the power of Daoist cultivation and investigation (and Buddhist, Christian, and Jewish as well) and I similarly despise how they are exploited for profit and power. The spirit or soul or whatever we call it are real and experiential and cannot be captured by experiment.... yet. That's OK, it doesn't lessen science or the spirit.

BTW, Dune is a magnificent book. Probably the single best sci fi book I've read. The movie was good but doesn't come close to doing it justice. Originally, Alejandro Jodorowsky was going to direct the film but it was canned due to his eccentric approach and the cowardice of his producers. Check out this link for an interesting read - http://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/jodorowsky.asp

Please let me know what you think of Cloud Atlas when you finish it. I'm currently reading The Voice of the Fire by Alan Moore. He's famous for graphic novels (Lost Girls, V for Vendetta, From Hell,...). This is a very cool book (though not sci fi) that starts ~ 6000 BC and marches forward in successive chapters to the present. All stories being set in the region of Northampton, UK. Very good so far.

At the recommendation of a friend, I"m going to drop some of my frequently worn clothes in a pile in front of my house so that my neighbors think I've been taken up!

Seeing the connection of all things can be equivalent to recognizing that all things are illusory in my view. What are "things"? "Things" are defined by boundaries. These boundaries are created by the mind to help it deal with the whole, which is largely incomprehensible and very tough to deal with from a practical point of view. Once the underlying connection is felt, the boundaries no longer exist, and so "things" no longer exist. The thing has no inherent is-ness, it just just that which is defined by a bounary. Same for the self. The question of whether there is any-thing vs no-thing, wave vs partical, DO vs Brahman, and all that is another topic that I feel is ineffable and not worth too much attention. After all, what does it matter? Here we are, we are matter, we are holograph, we are illusion, we are strings, we are God. Just words. We are or we are not, that is indisputable, no need to name it. I think this is a wonderful statement and worthy of emphasis - "At this point in time my own view is that logic and faith(s)--including in the Tao--need to be set aside as soon as practicable in one's developmental process. Rather than believing of disbelieving particular principles or teachings, one needs to learn to suspend both belief and disbelief (at east temporarily) in favor of just becoming available." I would make one comment on it - I think faith is different. To me, faith is the "just becoming available." Most people use faith and belief interchangeably and they are very different. Belief is the hope that the explanation you are attached to (and is not yet verified(able)) is correct. Faith is having the confidence to let go all beliefs and all logic and expectations and being open to what remains as being what it is - the truth, reality, whatever you want to call it. Faith is the courage to let belief go and accept what remains - being available to the truth.

No one can pull you down unless you permit it. Pay attention to how you feel when interacting with others. Why does the behavior of others threaten you? Do you have so little control? So little choice? By focusing so much on practicing something else, somewhere else, at some time in the future, you are wasting so much valuable and precious time and opportunity. You can be starting your practice right here, right now. The future doesn't exist, it's your mind playing games. The nature of the mind is that here and now are never enough, there is always this need for something else, something more. We always need to become something we are not. That's why we have come to dominate the planet - it is a very effective tool. But when it comes to true insight into reality, it is a distraction. If you bother to take the time to look at this very carefully. Look at your thought process, this constant need for something else, something better. See if you can have an insight into this. This is where you will find your answers, whether in a cave in Tibet or at the peak of Hua Shan. The path leads inward, not away.

It is not automatic for me to smile upon eye contact but it's something I've worked on for a while and it's a lot easier now. It allows you to see how deeply guarded some of us can be.

I look at wabi sabi as a quality of beauty that is related to something that is unattainable, removed, distant, mysterious, and so on. It has a bitter-sweet quality. A classic example is the beauty of a remote mountain valley that I can never reach but only imagine and long for.

Wabi sabi - I spent a glorious few days visiting my daughter on the West Coast. Returning home I am filled with the contentment that she is enjoying herself and growing into a wonderful young woman, and I am filled with the profound longing to be with her - to hug her and see her smile.

How can you conform to the nature of God and the universe without first being aware of it? Without being deeply aware of life and yourself. Your closest connection to God is inside, not outside (although, in reality, they are the same, inside is just easier to feel, hence all of the meditative techniques including prayer among the spiritual disciplines). "To Love thy God with all thy Heart, all thy Soul, all thy Mind, and all thy Strength, and to love thy neighbor as thyself." Beautiful quotes - the first part is from the daily Jewish prayer book and originates in Deuteronomy - way before Jesus. The second part - Love thy neighbor, is from Leviticus, also long before Jesus. I would bet these same sentiments pre-date Judaism as well. This stuff is very basic and inherent in all of the great traditions. Awareness is not an end result or an achievement or even a state of being, it is an activity, a practice. Awareness is to pay attention with your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, fingers, heart, and consciousness to everything that is in you and everything that is around you. Pay close and diligent attention. Watch your relationships. Watch your behavior and your thoughts and feelings. How you react to others and situations. To understand yourself and your relationship to others. To say that I am using circular logic is a ridiculous and gratuitous assertion. I simply never thought it necessary to spell out what awareness means - sorry about that. I assumed that everyone participating in our discussion understands what awareness means - my error. Now, since we are talking about methods, how does one follow the nature of God and how does one follow the nature of the universe? How does one know the nature of God and the universe to follow it? Do you know the nature of God and the universe in order to follow them? If we are being honest, you will answer that this way is defined in a book, in words. Not possible. The nature of the universe and the nature of God can never be captured in words - that's just human ignorance and arrogance. Only one way - to be AWARE. That is the first step (and really the only necessary step). What is love? Define it for me please. You still have not defined your terms: soul back of the image, image, Love principle, and so on. How can there be love without awareness? How can I love my neighbor if I am not aware of him and aware of our relationship? That would be a superficial love indeed. It's easy to say, I love, but you must feel it. To love without awareness would be forced and artificial and insincere indeed. True love only arises when we are fully aware of our interconnection and interdependence with others. This cannot occur in un-awareness. And when that awareness is present, love arises naturally and effortlessly. I agree with you that there are keys to the truth in the Christian scriptures (and the Jewish, Islamic, Daoist, Buddhist,... as well). On the other hand, I think that you need to look at it differently. You're too wrapped up in belief in keywords and phrases. It doesn't help. You need to look at reality, not a book. It will take a while but with patience you will see the truth. Then there is no need any more to believe because you will know. The ultimate goal is to see and feel the truth. The connection of all things. Their relationship to God (if you like to use those particular 3 letters of the English alphabet). You cannot do this without being aware. Yes, you need to find love but you will never understand love without awareness, you will only be using empty words and concepts. Why is it that so many of us are trying so hard to discuss this with you when you are so clearly set on your path? It shows that we love and would like to help. But is it really our place to do so? I wonder about that sometimes. As always, peace and good luck on your path.