Daniel

@Ajay0,

 

Was this intended for the "Abrahamic" sub-forum?

 

If so, please let me know if there is anything "Abrahamic" that you would like to discuss.  This is not a harsh judgement.  I'm not intending anything other than to understand what sort of conversation you would to inspire via the information you have posted here 

 

Best wishes from me to you,

 

-daniel- 

On 6/9/2024 at 9:57 AM, S:C said:

Great work at explaining this, thank you @Daniel! 

 

Many thanks. 

On 5/29/2024 at 7:57 AM, DreamBliss said:

 

More like a jolt to break through the blocks. Mainly because I spent so long working on myself I started to become self-absorbed, and nothing (and I mean nothing) I have ever done, outside of renouncing my former Christian faith, created any fundamental, meaningful and substantial change.

 

The best that I know of, based on what you have shared, would be a gradual untangling, not a jolt.

On 5/29/2024 at 5:10 PM, DreamBliss said:

Not far from Portland, OR

 

Greetings.  I am typing to you from NEPDX.  I'm a stone's throw from Laurelhurst Elementary school.

 

 

20 hours ago, thelerner said:

It was real and enjoyable, but does it matter?

 

My vote?

 

It matters when you share it.  Either in person, or like you shared it with us, in this thread.  At the very least, it matters to me.

On 5/29/2024 at 7:57 AM, DreamBliss said:

 

More like a jolt to break through the blocks. Mainly because I spent so long working on myself I started to become self-absorbed, and nothing (and I mean nothing) I have ever done, outside of renouncing my former Christian faith, created any fundamental, meaningful and substantial change.

 

I will keep you in mind if I happen across someone or something which fits within your parameters.  In the meantime, I wish you the very best.

 

Sincerely,

1 hour ago, DreamBliss said:

That would certainly short-circuit this unwanted inner tendency of mine to believe the physical world is all there which has left me unable to change my life in the big 3 ways: Fundamentally, Meaningfully and Substantially.

 

You're looking for a practice which produces fundemental, meaningful, substantial changes in an individual's life?  But, wisely, you would like hard evidence that the practice can (not will) produce these results prior to investing the time?

 

Edit to add:  But there is a specific roadblock or roadblocks which is/are interferring with this for you?  You're thinking, maybe, you need a sort of a "jolt" to skip over the roadblock or blocks?

 

@DreamBliss,

 

Thank you for your passionate inquiry.  I appreciate what you've written, and I think, I can't say for sure, but I think I understand what you're feeling.  If I understand, what you've written resonates deeply with how I feel in many ways.  Based on what you've written, again, if I understand properly, there is a great deal to discuss.  In my opinion, the items below are where the discussion should begin:

 

#1:

 

On 5/24/2024 at 8:59 AM, DreamBliss said:

This is not just what I want. I need this, for reasons I am not allowed to go into here.

 

Noted.  You need this.  It is not a want.  Details are not and will not be provided here.  I won't ask.

 

On 5/24/2024 at 8:59 AM, DreamBliss said:

Is there any sort of practice I can do that is guaranteed to bring results that challenge physical reality? I am open to anything.

 

This, my friend, if it is literally true, is a very dangerous position..  Anything includes a lot. 

 

Do you really mean it?  Anything?  Literally?

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

Wait, was that a threat to remember my feedback?

I hope not because then I won't be able to sleep at night.

 

Yes.  I am like a sponge.  I will very likely remember your feedback.

 

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Nah, I can barely remember anything now a days. 

 

OK.

 

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It almost feels like I am turning into a new man.

 

Reminds me of a song:  " ... feels like the first time ... feels like the very first time." - LINK 

 

Quote

 

Wait, was that politically correct?

 

I have no idea.  

 

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Wow, I am failing on all sorts of points.

 

You're doing fine.

 

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Maybe take a lesson from the story of the Zen master who says "Is that so?"

 

The neighbor girl got pregnant. Her parents kept badgering her to find out who the father was.

The girl say it was the Zen master who lived next door. The parents confronted him.

His only response was "Is that so?'. When the baby was born the parents brought the baby to the Zen master.

And told him to take care of his baby. He took the baby in and got what he needed from friends and relatives.

Year later, the girl could not live without her baby then confessed that the father was a boy in the fish market.

The parent went to the old Zen master and apologized. Asked for the baby back.

The Zen master said "Is that so?"

 

So, my response from now on will be, Not "Is that so?".

My response will be it was the boy in the fish market.

So, it is not my fault. It was the boy in the fish market.

 

Noted

On 5/21/2024 at 4:43 AM, Apech said:

 

So the original prophesy refers to a young woman but the Gospel writers thought this meant a virgin 'intacto' and so they made up the story that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Christ?  Because presumably they wanted to show that Jesus fulfilled prophesy and was indeed the messiah who was foretold.

 

That's not what I have in mind.  Is that in the article?

 

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That's quite interesting because there is quite a lot a vagueness about the Jesus family - for instance I don't think we get told what happened to Joseph, while Mary remains quite prominent.  Also Jesus is supposed to have brothers James and Judas (not Iscariot another one) - and also there is some suggestion that because Thomas means twin and he was called Thomas Didymus (also means twin) that he was also a (possibly even twin) brother of Christ also.  In the Gospel of John Jesus tells him (John) to look after Mary as his own mother.  

 

I agree.  

 

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Given there was a Jesus family, and possibly quite a lot of them, (although James is martyred ) what happened to the others and where did they go?  I think most of the apostles are crucified except John who presumably whisked Mary away to safety.  Which brings us to the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail idea that there is a hidden bloodline of Jesus somewhere in Europe.  I find this idea very appealing but one wonders what they have been up to for 2000 years.

 

Why would they be hidden?  If they're alive, are they in danger?  If they were to become public, would they be believed?   

 

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I am also quite keen on the mystery Jesus which actually picks up on some ancient myths concerning the sacrificed/wounded king - and pop up again in the High Middle ages in Arthurian myth (the Fisher King). 

 

Yes, the gospel story includes several elements which are considered by biblical critical scholars as common mythology motifs.

 

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Historically true or not there's no doubt that the Jesus story taps in to some deep narrative themes which underpin European culture.  The same narratives which Tolkien tried to revive in his works LOTR etc.

 

I think it goes further than that. The Christian bible is tapping into cross cultural, universal themes because its intended audience is not geo-specific.  If so, this explains why elements of the story and the lessons taught are found elsewhere and underpin the human experience. 

  

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In both Judaism and Buddhism there are paths running up mountains.  Whether or not these practice paths are ultimately ascending the same or different mountains is an open question.

 

If you are referring to the structure of our morning prayer service, I certainly agree that there is a "mountain" being climbed.  The ascension ( communion / reunion ) is real.

 

In Buddhism, the traveler realizes the path, the destination, and the journey, are all literally equivalent such that the feelings which indicate motion and ascension are illusory?

 

If so, they seem to be inverses in the category of alternative states of consciousness or awareness.

 

On 5/15/2024 at 7:14 PM, Apech said:

Why is Christianity such a strange religion? 

 

I wouldn't call it strange, but, I can understand why one would feel that way.

 

On 5/15/2024 at 7:14 PM, Apech said:

When you are confronted by it there are several things you are expected to accept:

 

- there is a supreme being who created the universe

- this being impregnated a virgin 

- the child grew up to perform miracles and so on

- he was crucified, died and then rose from the dead

 

Each of these are intended to line up with previously accepted Jewish prophecies.  However, the original prophecies are very different than how modern mainstream Christianity aggregates them.

 

Here's a good example regarding the "virgin" birth.  "Virgin" is in quotes because the original prophecy does not include a virgin.

 

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/chapter-18f-virgin-misconception-myth

 

Also, mainstream Christianity uses a method for prophecy interpretation called "Pesher".  The intent is to reveal a hidden prophecy which is scrambled and scattered throughout various texts.  Using Pesher to interpret prophecy permits a great deal of strangeness.

On 5/18/2024 at 2:11 PM, liminal_luke said:

 

I think of Jewish observance -- praying, studying Torah, keeping Shabbat, etc -- as practices meant to cultivate a person spiritually in a way that´s analogous to meditation in Buddhism.

 

If you are saying there is a correspondence, I trust your judgement.  I would also add that the practice, if executed regularly, includes grounding so that the individual is much less likely to lose their sense of self and context ( who, where, and when ).

On 5/13/2024 at 7:22 PM, Tommy said:

What do I think about this analysis? I think I am too old and tire. So, tl-dr  (too long- didn't read). My dementia is kicking in. I don't even remember being in this thread. Shalom. Or is it Namaste? Eh, aloha.

 

Thank you for the feedback.  I will keep that in mind for any future replies directed towards you.

 

Best wishes, sincerely,

 

-daniel-

On 5/2/2024 at 11:35 AM, S:C said:

Isn’t anyone? 
 

“Reading what is there” relies on “picking and choosing your meanings”, in my very humble opinion on this matter.

 

The verse as written is:  

 

Μὴ νομίσητε ὅτι ἦλθον βαλεῖν εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν· οὐκ ἦλθον βαλεῖν εἰρήνην, ἀλλὰ μάχαιραν

 

Μὴ -   Lest ( soft negation )

νομίσητε - think 

ὅτι - that 

ἦλθον - [ I ] came

 

βαλεῖν - "casting"? "Like a net?  From the root βάλλω. 

That's an interesting word choice.  "Net <--> Sword" is a sharp contrast.

 

εἰρήνην - "peace-as-a-consequence-of-unity"

Another interesting word choice:  from the root εἴρω = "bound / united".  It means "peace" but it is  peace that comes from a fundamental connection.  Strong's Lexicon indicates that εἰρήνην was the traditional Jewish Greek invocation on departure.  This matches the traditional hebrew invocation on departure which is:  Shalom.  Shalom is from the root Shaleim, which means "complete".  Also Salam in arabic.  Bound, united, complete, all of these are expressing the same message.  When Jewish people part ways, traditionally it is said:  "Be at peace, we are united, we are complete."  That is what is expressed by the word "Shalom" in hebrew and also the meaning of "Eirene" "εἰρήνην" in Greek.  It is a a true peace that can only be accomplished through inclusion.  As an aside:  there's also a Greek Goddess in their pantheon named "Eirene / Irene", the goddess of peace.  Perhaps there's an additional layer of meaning in this as well?  Jesus is saying that he did not come to bring either the traditional Greek version of peace?  And.  He did not come to bring the traditional hebrew version of peace.  He came to bring something different than that.

 

ἐπὶ - to

τὴν - the

 

γῆν - [ the physical ]  earth

Often a word chosen to translate the hebrew words Eretz and Adamah in the Greek Old Testament.

 

οὐκ - not ( harsh negation )

ἦλθον - [ I ] came

βαλεῖν - "casting" ( like a net )

εἰρήνην - "peace-coming-from-unity" ( see above )

ἀλλὰ - but

 

μάχαιραν -"slaughter-knife"

μάχαιρα has specific connotation. It only had one edge as contrasted with a ῥομφαία, a more elegant two-sided double edged sword.  There is context here that is needed.  The μάχαιραν is not an ordinary "sword" even though that is how it is translated into english.  It is a long single sided knife which was often used in ritual slaughter.  This can be seen in Homer's Illiad where the priest of apollo uses a μάχαιραν to slaughter the sacrifice.  In hebrew, this sort of knife is called a khaylif.  The knives used for ritual slaughter were ( and are ) exceptionally sharp and long so that the beast would be dispatched painlessly with a single deliberate stroke.   This is the ending of the statement.   This is what Jesus is saying he is bringing.  He is bringing a slaughter-knife to  execute a ritual.

 

---

 

According to what's written, the verse is contrasting the imagery of casting a wide net ( εἰρήνην / Eirene / inclusive-peace ) with executing a ritual slaughter ( μάχαιραν / Machairan / divisive-salvation? )

 

@Tommy, what do you think about this analysis? 

 

On 5/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Tommy said:

Yes, he did say it was necessary but he did not advocate violence.

 

To be clear, I do no think he was advocating violence either.  I wrote "he was not opposed to violence." 

 

 

On 5/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Tommy said:

He was fulfilling a prophecy.

 

Agreed.

 

On 5/2/2024 at 10:25 AM, Tommy said:

You are picking and choosing your meanings instead of reading what is there. Still, if that is what you need or want then so be it.

I think what I meant to communicate is being misunderstood.  I apologize for not being more clear.

 

 

9 hours ago, Tommy said:

Matthew 26:52-54 

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

 

... But how then should the Scriptures ( aka prophecy ) be fulfilled? 

 

Per Jesus:  The violence and broken hearts are necessary in order for the fulfilling of the prophecy.

19 hours ago, S:C said:

I don’t have any answers. Sorry.

 

Do you think that Jesus would have wasted words being repetitive?  When I read the greek scriptures, it seems to me that everything that is quoted of Jesus possesses many layers of meaning.  The meaning is concentrated and compressed into the words which is why they need to be unpacked.  That is the opposite of wasted and repetitive words.

On 4/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Tommy said:

Jesus did not come to bring peace or the status quo but to bring about change. Some changes are violent (not all are).

 

I agree.  Bringing about changes is "division".  It is a departure from the status quo.  It divides the way-of-life before, from the way-of-life after.  However, there are two statements being referred to in the quote brought to this thread:

 

1)  I have not come to bring peace.

2)  I have come to bring the sword.

 

These are not necessarily redundant statements.  Would Jesus waste words being repetitive?

 

On 4/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Tommy said:

So, telling his disciples to protect themselves amount to preaching or advocating violence?

 

He was not opposed to violence.

 

On 4/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Tommy said:

Is this what he taught to the general public?

 

He did not teach to the general public.

 

On 4/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Tommy said:

That his message to the people was to go inflict violence upon one another?

 

Jesus taught several things.  The story as it's written requires Jesus to be one of the "faction" of the transgressors.  Inflicting violence on the pharisee judicial establishment is a transgression.  It's a capital offense.  Ref:  Deuteronomy 17:9-12.  The pharisees are the "judges who [were] in those days" (אל־השפט אשר יהיה בימים).  Encouraging the violence guarantees that Jesus will be "of the transgressors, allocated" (את־פשעים נמנה) from the suffering-servant prophecy written in Isaiah 53:12.

 

The violence is part of the plan.  Here are the verses from Deuteronomy 17 in a spoiler for reference.

 

 

On 4/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Tommy said:

Then why heal the one who is injured?

 

Because of the prophecy.  When did the healing occur?  Is that sort of healing permitted at that time?  Jesus had already been warned not to do it?  Agreed?

 

Luke 13:14 (NIV)

 

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue leader said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.”

 

Lev. 23:39

 

אך בחמשה עשר יום לחדש השביעי באספכם את־תבואת הארץ תחגו את־חג־יהוה שבעת ימים ביום הראשון שבתון וביום השמיני שבתון׃
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep a feast to the Lord seven days; on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
 

The healing occurred after the passover seder ( "the last supper" ) which is legally on the 15th day of the seventh month which is a "Sabbath".  Healing is not permitted on this day according to the law of God unless there is a risk of imminent death, or, unless there is a woman in labor.

 

Jesus healed that individual, in that time and at that place, so that he [Jesus] would be "of the transgressors, allocated."  Isaiah 53:12.

 

ETA:  In order for the plan to work, the entire plan, all of it it needs to occur on the night of passover.  Most do not know the prophecies well enough to realize this.  Jesus is attempting to execute a rather complicated ... maneuver, for lack of a better word. 

 

29 minutes ago, Tommy said:

He did not advocate violence.

 

Jesus is quoted in Luke ( NIV ):

 

 ... if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’ ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

 

In context, in Luke 22, Jesus is directing his disciples to arm themselves and, yes, be violent to prevent their capture by the established power structure, the pharisee judicial system.  The verse referenced is in Isaiah 53, the famous "suffering-servant" prophecy.  In order to adopt the station of the "suffering-servant", among other things, Jesus needs to be "את־פשעים נמנה", literally "of the transgressors, allocated".   If the disciples do not fight back, then the disciples are no longer transgressors.  In order to take the station of "suffering-servant", the disciples need to be actively antagonistic to the decree of the pharisees in violation of biblical law.  The pharisees are coming to seize the disciples with violence.  They cannot submit.  They will need to react violently.  Submitting to the pharisee prison and the pharisee death sentence peacefully does not fulfill the prophecy of the "suffering-servant".

 

Later in the chapter, there is violence.  The disciples use the sword, but Jesus heals the one who is injured.  Jesus, in theory, could have could have prevented it, but he did not come to bring peace.  The violence is necessary in order to repair it.  That is an important concept in Christianity.

2 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Sword could mean cutting through delusion/ignorance.

 

Wouldn't that bring peace?

 

" ... do not think that I came to bring peace ... "

11 hours ago, S:C said:

Differentiation. 

Seems contradictory to the approach for reuniting with God, no?

 

The Christian bible is, top to bottom, dividing or differentiating between those who are reuniting ( salvation ) and those who are not.

 

On 4/4/2024 at 1:04 PM, S:C said:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

 

this has been wondering me for years now… what is the meaning of this sentence, is it related to perception?

 

The sword = division.

 

From the same chapter: (NIV)

 

32 Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

 

^^ Division ^^

 

From chapter 13:  (NIV)

 

“The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them."

 

^^ Division ^^

 

From chapter 3:  (NIV)

 

I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

^^ Division ^^

 

The Book of Matthew in some ways is the most "Jewish" of the gospels.  The prophecies of the Jewish Messiah are at first catastrophic, a period of division, which is resolving into a perfected world.  "... do no think that I bring peace .... but a sword." 

 

@Apotheose,

 

Thank you for the reply.  I'm going to reflect on what you wrote.