Cleansox

4 hours ago, angstg said:

I had posted earlier in 2020. 

Still having a focus on retention? 

In the most likely order:

1) You are joking, because you know the entertainment value of starting a thread like this. 

2) Semen retention is harmful for the acquired mind. 

3) Gosh, you are now a power walking this earth. 

The book Foundations of internal alchemy by Wang Mu is a not to bad introduction to the subject. 

Following the Wuzhen Pian, rinsing saliva and stuff like that might be a part of preparatory steps, but are not part of the method for becoming a celestial immortal. 

On the other hand, in methods closer to the Yellow Court Classic it can be included, you can always look up Stuart Alve Olson at valleyspiritsart.com for books on the subject. 

Nathan Brine is selling books on the subject, I haven't read them but I am sure they will satisfy your curiosity. 

Some would argue that Nei dan is based on methods that differ from most qigong styles, but that is at best a dead-end subject. 

My guess is that it depends on the teacher, which LMP lineage you are enquiring in. 

They differ. 

14 hours ago, dwai said:

 

can anyone say “my Kidney had a realization” or my “liver had a realization” or even my “heart had a realization”? Imho, saying that the “body” realizes is an absurd proposition. Realization can only ever be in the mind. 

Perhaps you have studied the theory of your method so much that you close yourself to other possibilities?

Of course, I agree with what you have written above. That is not what it is about, at least not in my practice. 

Just as there are persons who do "mind only" and end up with dissociating from the body, there are persons who lay their focus on the post heaven aspects of the physical body and end up with, well, whatever. 

None of that is, in my personal view, relevant to this context, the context that relates to the quotes from tibetan buddhism I used and the Liu Yiming quote that was posted in this thread. 

Rather, realization is layered, and using traditional methods that include what the above mentioned quotes refer to increases the chance that there is realization in layers that practitioners might try to avoid. 

Is the goal of this to become light? 

Is the goal of a mind only method to become telepathic or see things? 

I'm sure some people have those as goals, and we can spend time arguing how any of these methods could turn into a side-door. 

I guess I could always explain what I mean when I use those terms, but unfortunately my tea kettle just came to a boil, and my tea is in the making. Writing in a way that does the subject justice would take some time, and my tea would be spoiled. 

27 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Or am I missing something?

A milennia of dogma and bickering, so not really 😁

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

But the objective needs to be clear, and the assumption of causality needs to be clarified as well — practice will not produce realization. It builds the conditions which makes realization easier. Realization happens only in/via the mind. 

And yet, there are traditions that claims that the process that leads to a full body transformation is also a process that deepen/complete/(add term that says the result is more useful) realization. 

So the objective is realization, and I guess that the signs when one "sheds the husk" is a confirmation on the success of the above process, not a goal in it self. 

I put in an "I guess" there, because I have no knowledge of how other traditions set up their goals. 

There shouldn't be an attachment involved, although for others in any tradition, having a senior in that lineage leaving with a light show is definetly a confirmational sign that one is part of a tradition based upon good practice. 

As you are aware of, this subject has been discussed for a milennia or two, and most of the older traditions have spent a considerable time to sharpen arguments that supports the view of that tradition. 

If someone believe that realization is Mind only, that someone shouldn't spend time on those methods that involve body transformation. 

And the other way around, if someone believe that including body transformation is a good idea, by all means invest time in that. 

And, the practice is fun. 

Just worth mentioning. 😁 

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Where do these dualistic impressions occur? And where do they cease? 

The question is not whether or not one work with the Mind. The question is, if one leaves a rotting corpse behind, have one fully realised that everything is Mind? 

Or has one dissociated oneself from the physical aspects of the body, and just flipped the dualistic coin so the other side is up? 

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

Never denied that body needs to be worked on - but only as a preparatory step for meditation. 

See above. 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

Ah the allure of becoming immortal and maintaining doership 

So, one might as the question "what is the purpose of developing a rainbow body"? 

Becoming an energy blob that retain ones personality, so one can control later generations of ones lineage or family? 

Or, "... whereupon, in a way greatly superior to meditation on emptiness alone, the dualistic impressions of apprehended and apprehender cease." 

The work leading to this kind of transformation is seen, by the traditions that do it, as "the ground for actualising the inner state of union". 

It can be laid out in a more childish way:

A: "Everything is Mind."

B: "Prove it." 

Is it necessary to do a full body transformation? 

Who knows. 

Why not let the choice of path be just another individual choice. Both sides believe that their choice is excellent. 

Historically, it has been argued about. 

I made a review of that book in another thread. 

If one likes Qianfeng Pai and Taoist Yoga, it a good read. 

1 hour ago, awaken said:

The alchemy recommended books for beginners
You must read the Wuzhen chapter

/... ... /

It’s okay if you don’t understand the Wuzhen chapter, just look at Liu Yiming’s "Wuzhen Zhizhi", this is the book I can find closest to the original intent of the Wuzhen Chapter. 

Would this be the translation by Thomas Cleary? 

Understanding reality, which includes the commentary by Liu Yiming. 

I would recommend reading the Xiuzhen houbian (cultivating the Tao) first, Liu Yiming is hard reading but the later introduces one to his way of thinking about terms, before diving in to the Wuzhen Pian. 

Do you really think that the Facebook translator can translate texts about Nei Dan so it becomes useful for western students? 

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi cleansox! :-)

Just curious ... did you practice the sitting ming gong or the standing moving form?

Yo!

In the tradition I practice, this is done through static standing. 

We also have moving forms and most of the standing forms can be done seated, shifting from standing to seated has both pros and cons. 

The main methods, at least for a householder where time is an issue, lies in the standing, but I also do the core moving methods every day. 

The standing positions should not (and when seen, would not) be confused with the most well known zhan zhuan associated with martial lineages, the purpose and energetics is different. 

I'm sure that other lineages have developed other ways of accessing the same mechanisms. 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

Each posture is like a physical yantra or talisman, it has particular characteristics. Simply being in that posture makes the energy flow in a certain way. When you go into the void in a standing posture, these energetic characteristics are more noticeable and very powerful.

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength. 

Add: And depending on where one is in ones practice, the characteristics of said posture changes. 

It can take one through the different layers of the aquired bodymind: Skin, sinew, channel, organ, marrow. 

This would mainly be the preparation phase, so I would not call it internal alchemy because no yao/dan has been produced. 

Some positions, or as in my practice, some specific aspects in these methods, activate the River Chariot and the Reversal of Water and Fire. This is described in most of the texts referred to in my ppd, and together with a shift in awareness this lays the Foundation, a phase that ends with the production of yao/medicine. 

Continuing this, the change in awareness continue, and with that, the process of transformation starts up, but now guided from the replenished yuan jing/qi/shen. 

At this stage, things take care of themselves, as long as I retain proper awareness. 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

But like you mentioned, it's different processes.

The main difference would be my middle pharagraph, which is brutally simplified here but as I wrote, there are quite a few texts devoted to it (although in severely metaphorical language). 

That part I could not see in your description, and it is considered a major stepping stone in some traditions. 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

However, I would be very interested and curious to know now; can you shortly explain your view of the alchemical process in your tradition? 

So I posted an overview above, somewhat simplified ("reversal" is a somewhat large concept, and the firing times in my tradition is more like baking, an apt similie sometimes used by @freeform, which I interpret as including "bathing"). 

13 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

Be blessed
 

And you 😁

17 hours ago, freeform said:

I really need to learn from your methods of avoiding circular conversations 😂

Both true yin/yang and, since that is a part of, the reversal process, deserves a good presentation including visual aids. 

When faced with doing it on my smartphone => avoidance mode. 

And some of these aspects are rarely spoken about in clear language outside of schools, a tradition which also makes me hesitant... 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 @Cleansox

Yes, like you said, there might be some differences in how we view internal alchemy, and how the systems we practice view it.

Yes, so far we are in agreement. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 How will you connect with the state of your conciousness from before you were born?

You use your current state and work from there. 

By building and strengthening your foundation (here understood as the health of your physical body), you're strengthening your jing. Through this continued strengthening, you can access, connect to and experienceyour jing from before you were born.

And here we part. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

You use your acquired jing (current physical state of health, your body), to access your jing from before you were born.

Hard to tell here, because this gives you an image of a process, but the image I get of this is different from how I understand it. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The posture looks somewhat like the fetal position. When you relax in the position and stand for a prolonged time, and if you get the transmission of this state from your teacher, you can enter into and connect with the state of your jing from before you were born.

Totally different from the process I have studied. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The good thing about qigong and meditation is that once you're able to reach "the void", you have access to all of these three (jing, qi and shen from before birth) as well as everything else.

As I understand it, qigong + meditation = yin shen, not the transformational process involving JinDan. 

The Zhan Boduan/Zhong-Lu makes quite a big thing out of this. 

3 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

So, when you access the void, everything is already in there: your jing/qi/shen from before birth, the 5 elements in their optimal form etc. You can know everything.

That's the big advantage if one is good in meditation. If you can reach the void (through a transmission of it from your teacher), you can start to enter into the void every day. Then everything happens, just like the Dao De Jing says "the sage does nothing, yet everything is accomplished". 

Why then have members of Daoist internal alchemical traditions a history of critisizing Buddhists (and other daoists) who focus on sitting in the void? 

So I hear you, and I see the differences between what we do. 

2 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 @Cleansox

the alchemical principle of jing to qi, qi to shen, and shen to dao using the liver as a concrete example.

I am aware of the fact that there are several ideas about what internal alchemy is, a couple of thousand years of development in a rather large country has that as a result. 

This messes with a discussion like this, because in what I study the above wouldn't be internal alchemy at all. It is "just" a refinement, not a transformation. 

It is based on post heaven energetics, and might constitute the preparation phase going in to meditation, but if you have followed the somewhat unclear discussions on the subject the above would lead to a yinshen, not a yangshen. 

Add pre heaven bla bla bla, a hint of the super secret Ming method, an unwarranted use of the term "reversal", and that would explain why we see this so differently. 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Next thing you know, they’re sucking off strangers to access the Dao 

I can take one for the team and be that stranger... 😁 

I believe @Desmonddfhas written about this, probably in the Grotto section.

I would say that if a person still nourishes sexual desire, and just keep a lid on it, the body will evacuate old semen just like all old manifest substances are evacuated or broken down and re-used (with a loss of energy in the process). The "energy" one feels in the process is, at least partly, frustration, which is activated energy without a proper release (that is the physiological explanation, not TCM). 

So to retain jing, as discussed in earlier threads, one works on desire, not only sexual but also desire for money, fame, and so on. One also works on ones mental patterns that create worry, fear, and so on. 

Thus one retain jing. 

I would be less inclusive using the term internal alchemy, but I do not expect others to have my bias on that part. 

Good to know how you use the word, thanks for the clarification. 

Which of these would be the internal alchemy tradition? 

Zhongxian Wu? 

He mentions internal alchemy in TienGan DiZhi, methods heavily based on visualisation. 

Not my cup of tea, but I am sure it works fine for someone more visual than me. 

40 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

@freeform
"Holding your breath is a key secret ingredient to internal alchemy"
/... ... /

 or simply not true that it's actually an important part of alchemy. 

If you generalize like this, people will disagree. 

Evidently, people from different lineages share the opinion that breath holding isn't an important aspect of internal alchemy. 

More nuanced, you can always write more about which systems breath holding is important, and then the rest can fill in "this is not how it is done in my tradition". 

I have also encountered breath holding in martial related qigong, mostly in primitive versions of Iron Shirt. They also included high pressure compression of the abdominal space, something that probably should be restricted to people whose arteries and abdominal fascia are in good condition. 

On 2021-07-24 at 6:22 AM, Yueya said:

Liu Yiming’s perspective on correct and incorrect Neidan practice.

You just inspired me to read Cultivating the Tao (Xiuzhen houbian). 

Maybe I will resonate better with Liu this time. 

12 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

@Master Logray

 @virtue  @Cleansox @Master Logray
Breathing is related to the qi. 

Of course breathing is related to the qi, noone is disputing that as far as I can see. 

And breath holding, in some contexts, is a relevant method of practice. 

Short time breath holds/breathing out against resistance while in a low pressure isometric contraction is a very important practice when dealing with stress related reactions, the physiological research on that is clear. 

The above is depending on the practitioner also doing regulatory breathing, i. e. actively releasing the sympathetic reaction dealt with in this kind of practice. 

If one fails doing this, because one fails to get the parasympathetic aspects right, one of the long time conseqences is believed to be renal failure because the blood pressure system might get stuck in a higher pressure balance point. There is somewhat lack of research on that, for obvious reasons. 

With longer breath holds, the diver response kicks in. It is regarded as the strongest autonomic reaction we have. Because of what it does, I wouldn't personally recommend that while doing strenous isometric practice. 

Breath holding/stopping also have interesting effects on the mind, which also makes it useful. 

And I still disagree with breath holding being a key ingredient in internal alchemy, at least in the Chinese versions.