Integrated

@Mskied

I see the usual suspects are up to their usual business.

It has a quality of deja vu now...

 

I like many of the arguments you make, makes a lot of sense actually.

 

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The unfit can rule too, if their numbers and methods are Good enough to convince the mighty to lay down their arms.

 

But I'm going to give you a little challenge, isn't this just fitness on another level?

If one is unfit one doesn't make it, if one makes it one is fit.

Meaning that fitness has more to do with the environment than anything else.

 

This environment is particularly testing, as many here is basically doing their best to grind you down.

Are they monsters? In a way...

I liked the point you made about art, people who try to set standards on others self expression of art,

are really quite oppressive people; it wouldn't be wrong to term it predatory.

 

@Mskied

Personally I feel like I'm on my own path, playing my own game.

Sure it involves others, but I have more or less defined what moves are valid in encounters with them.

Of course every day something new happens, and new possibilities open.

Every day the ideas I had about the game gets challenged.

 

But as long as I know my path and I play the game as best I can,

then I have no regrets, I don't want anything in particular either.

Within limits of course, I'm not about to profess myself an enlightened saint or anything.

Rather I often find myself within a flow and others are baffled that someone could even wish to take my path.

 

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To be normal is the ultimate aim of the unsuccessful.

Carl Jung

 

If one isn't being weird and out there in contrast to everyone else on a normalized path,

then one is profoundly unsuccessful and ultimately have failed oneself.

Only by going on some epic adventure by ones own design can one ultimately find what one want and needs.

Sure there will be trials, issues and setbacks, and objectively one can get into all sorts of troubles.

Yet if we don't do that, then life is more or less nothing.

 

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Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.

Helen Keller

 

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

.......... Uranus..........

 

Pluto...............Neptune

 

 

 

Saturn  |          |  Jupiter

 

..............  SUN ..............

 

 

 

..............Mercury.........

 

................MOON .........

 

Mars ........................Venus

 

 

I showed it to one astrologer that is into Kabbalah and  they said 'So what, that is your basic astrological set up' - everyone knows about that !  .    

 

Yeah astrology was never my thing, so I put little stock in the planets.

Interesting to know that they have a basic setup like that.

Though my interest in it is still low, probably because I feel it is wrong on some level.

 

The though just hit me that the movement of the planets could be compared to the shuffling of the Tarot deck.

Then whatever tale the planets tell, would just be like a Tarot spread.

If that is indeed the way they do it, that would be funny, and would remove much of my skepticism.

19 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

The truth is that I disdain the idea of angels, demons, kabbalah and the whole esoteric knowledge being a "metaphor" for "self-improvement".

 

For instance, the idea that Angels aren't "beings made by god which create the universe", but "ideas which relate to the supraconscious".

 

Just wait until I can "cast fireball". Then I'll get some of you guys and take you to see a real angel, not a metaphor. If you want, of course. Then maybe I'll feel less triggered by it.

 

Goddamit people, stop reducing the world to shadowork and psychophylosophy!

 

"Humans without soul" doesn't mean "humans without the will to live" or "humans with an ego/mind this or that way", means "humans without LITERAL souls"!

 

At least if you're talking Blavatsky or Crowley, which are the sources of this!

 

Yeah I get that you have a totally different stance on how stuff like this works than me.

Yet since I haven't walked in your shoes, I cannot really take on your frame.

 

For me, many of the things you say take on a level of impossibility.

This may be because I'm very much mired in the western frame of mind.

As Jung said about the problem.

 

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In these matters one needs a great deal of psychology in order to make it palatable to the Western mind.

Carl Jung - The psychology of kundalini yoga

 

Maybe you are able to metabolize this information in another way,

and hence don't need psychology to make it accessible to you.

That is good for you, but for me, I'm too comfortable in an abstracted take on things.

I may never touch the matter as you do, but I derive great benefits regardless.

 

Even though I may not think about the Angels/Demons in the same way,

I do see the carnage they generate regardless, their imprint is just as much there for me to see.

I just chose to approach them from a different frame, so to speak.

As you yourself said, they don't really give a shit about us and our agendas,

so why should I care about how I approach them, if they don't give a damn either way?

I suffer just the same, if I go down one or another path.

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I am referring to the schema I outlined in my post on page 2  You must have read it as you 'thanked' it .

 

 Ah right, hmm....

 

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.......... Uranus..........

 

Pluto...............Neptune

 

 

 

Saturn  |          |  Jupiter

 

..............  SUN ..............

 

 

 

..............Mercury.........

 

................MOON .........

 

Mars ........................Venus

 

 

Well from what I know of the planets, that makes little sense to me.

I guess you are trying to show some dynamic what should be going on, but to me it seems pretty random at this point.
I may not be familiar enough with all the nomenclature you use nor the planets themselves as placeholders.

Testing testing...

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.......... Chokmah..........

 

Malkuth...............Kether

 

 

 

Binah  |          |  Chesed

 

..............  Tiferet ..............

 

 

 

..............Hod..............

 

................Yesod .........

 

Geburah ........................Netzach

 

Well okay, I guess I see certain patterns now.

Though I have forgotten what you where trying to say that I misunderstood.

 

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I assume you are talking 'Jungian   'shadow  and that definition that includes the whole unconscious.  In that case, I find the suggestion of   dispelling it, or wanting to dispel it or even talking about dispelling it rather odd .   Perhaps what is meant is making a better working connection with it ?   That is why in my 'psychological astrological tree' the  Sun is linked to the Moon (surrounded by the three main drives and the 3 inner personal planets ) through Mercury  and why a central motif of hermetics is the Sun and Moon conjoined , in some way . 

 

Ah okay, perhaps, it makes sense that Mercury/Hod generates a shadow, as it is a big driver for action.

The Geburah <-> Netzach connection is interesting, and I guess I can see that.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Okay.   I think that function , lets call it 'the cover up'   can be conscious in some, semi in others and a full blown unconscious reaction in others . 

 

I also know that to casually reveal one's 'shadow' and strip of the ' mask of niceness'  is very socially confronting and perhaps ' socially inept'     .... as I do that sometimes .  Which opens up another whole cans of worms  .....  why DO  that  ... when most do not .

 

Yeah.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yes, individually and collectively  ( also in a short and long time frame * )   .  Hence Harpur's view on the changing metaphor of the experience; Goddess, Fairy Queen, Virgin Mary ,  Space Alien Woman .  He cites an experience related by 'people'  and then told to other groups, they all are certain what is described fulfils their definitions for   either the Goddess, fairy Queen, etc  .  Then the explanation is given from the people that told the story; they where certain they had been visited by 'their ancestors'.

 

And on an individual level also as we develop and change these interactions might take on different meanings and   'constructed .forms' of  'interaction'.   Jung himself had some pretty fantastic ones ! 

 

 

I read a great book once who  title eludes me .   The 'complex range' here was history and  how these  above 'interactions' have changed over time ( from ancestors  to Gods , to demons and angels through to good and bad aliens ... 'blues and grays' or whatever the division is )  according to developments in human technologies  and culture of the times .

 

So the rule set should not be formed from the projection, but by similarities throughout the projections  .

 

Well sure on a superficial manifestation level, one could sort similarities and such.

But when we have concepts like Sefirot that show the structures they jump out of.

It doesn't really matter to me what forms the cultural zeitgeist is spewing out at any given time.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Good question !  It just seems the propensity of some to enjoy that and for others to fear it.   Where does THAT come from? . I am tempted to answer ; 'because it feels so good afterwards '      but that doesnt explain the impetus.  One of the higher imitations is 'Annihilation' (P.I.) ,  it comes after the degree that allows entry into the Lodge, so in the Lodge are 'the unannihilated'  and the 'annihilated'  and those 'beyond'.  The  P.I. are stripped of their rank, insignia, motto,  weapons tools, whatever. They have  a concealed (or no) identity. Their robe is all plain black and covers the face. They are , or try to emulate 'Mr Nobody' .   I felt very comfortable in that position, as did one of my 'brothers' .  Yet some fear ot so much they dont go near that and stop at the 'glorified' level before it. Even stranger, some go on through it and afterwards STILL maintain their magical ego identity ...   evidence that ritual and ceremony alone is  just a adjunct too change .

 

I also experienced the same dynamic when I was involved in practices of 'annihilation'  in Tibetan Buddhism  ( Kargu Karma  and their Chod meditations ) .  Perhaps one made the other more 'comfortable' ?   But no, as I go back I see a pattern .  I even remember my mother being very worried about me  and relaying a dream she had about me as a child ;  the family is out at a picnic or something, the shy darkens, a storm approaches, thunder rumbles , lighening all around, earthquakes, the earth heaves up and splits open revealing a huge chasm into the bowels of the earth. Mom and Dad usher the children to safety, running away to a sfer place but I break off from them, run towards the hole in the earth, turn, smile, turn back and jump in. ... Mother awakes from her 'nightmare' , very concerned about ' me ' - the type of person I am .  Now this mother was very straight, didnt even understand what the word psychology meant, VERY simple intellectually and a devout and practising catholic .  So, where did THAT dream come from ?

 

Can I have a propensity to 'annihilation'   ?  Or do I think my ego is so strong it will survive it ?       

 

Maybe not, as I do not have a strong belief in 'life after death'.

 

People fake for all sorts of reason, usually because of status.

Once something becomes important in a group, because it is "higher",

then you can bet that half the members are trying to figure out ways to take shortcuts to the esteemed position.

 

Personally I don't care much for groups like that,

whenever the hierarchy gets too high and one have to jump through hoops,

I'm usually looking for the exits.

Sort of like the cat in animal farm, when the pigs take over.

I come back if things calm down though.

 

The dream of your mother makes sense, knowing what you have been up to.

 

Your ego seem fairly strong from this side of the internet.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Thats an interesting observation .  Fanatacism seems mostly an unbalanced outcome of the path of Bhakti Yoga, devotional practices, rituals of worship.

 

Might be so.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Nope .

 

Well I always assume people don't, as it is a rule of thumb that is right in a majority of cases.

Even when they don't admit it also.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Well, the Tower seems to encapsulate what you are inferring  to , if I read you right .

 

Yeah pretty much.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Depends on where you draw the 'mind's' boundary ... and definition of mind [ see level / circuit 8 of exo-psychology where 'consciousness is non-local' .  But generally, of course,  and in normal consciousness , no, it is not possible.

 

Okay, well yeah if one wants to drag in stuff like genes or collective unconscious,

then obviously there is no end to it in the personal conscious and personal unconscious.

Yet I don't really bother to pester myself with such concepts in this discussion of wholeness.

It is enough I think to be whole on ones own playground first.

To be one with everything, although arguably a higher and nobler ideal by some standards.

Strikes me as something that is beyond the spirit of our time.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

I dont think it WAS  useless .

 

Well you are welcome to your opinion.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

I think I would get bored if I had all the pieces of the puzzle .

 

Yeah, I guess I'm just tired of certain dynamics, and when I see similar patterns I just fire from the hip.

Compared to a lot of people who have an air of "enlightened BS" you are kind of okay.

Not that counts as a bridge in my eyes though.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yes. I see personal evolution (when it is working) as an ever rising widening spiral. We can get back to where we where before, but we should be changed by the 'revolution' .

 

There is always something new to take hold off to figure out.

It just depend how much time one has to sacrifice for it.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yes, interesting .  Time has run away with me though ... gotta split to make a meeting .

 

Time waits for no one!

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

That would be VERY ironic  !       ... I think that is a 'typo'  .

Okay first off!!! LOL

The card DAMMIT!!! The card!!!

@Nungali

Okay you really followed me into a lot of rabbit holes here.

 

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I assume you are talking 'Jungian   'shadow  and that definition that includes the whole unconscious.  In that case, I find the suggestion of   dispelling it, or wanting to dispel it or even talking about dispelling it rather odd .   Perhaps what is meant is making a better working connection with it ?   That is why in my 'psychological astrological tree' the  Sun is linked to the Moon (surrounded by the three main drives and the 3 inner personal planets ) through Mercury  and why a central motif of hermetics is the Sun and Moon conjoined , in some way . 

 

Yes I usually adopt a Jungian frame on things, mainly because I had a long period under his spell, so to speak.

So that perspective is more evolved in me.

 

I assume that you are referring to Tiferet - Sun -> Yesod - Moon -> Hod -> Mercury?

If so, I can get aboard that understanding of it, the moon being a form of shadow.

From a Jungian point of view I guess we could say that it is the opposite attitude of the same function.

Though that is more or less me equating that shadow to be say an Introverted feeler taking on an Extraverted feeler mask.

If you get where I'm going with it,

a sort of direct compensation of the main attitude function to cover up the main flaw of the personality.

In the case of the example used, extraverting feeling, rather than face the repressed thinking.

This is of course me trying to fit such a system in with Jung, and has certain intuitive leaps without empirical backing.

Though from watching myself and others, it seems to fit pretty well.

 

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So there are two aspects here ( and also they are in psychology )  ; the whole content of the unconscious or  the main drives in the unconscious  . And within either or both of those, another two aspects , the general (or whole ) unconscious and those 'animal tendencies and programmes  from early evolution ... that generally constitute the 'Id' ... the 'lower programmes'    ( a study of exp-psychology helps here ) .  Here, with training and understanding, any drive (or force) can be  balanced  and harnessed to the work at hand .

 

I suppose what is meant by the above quote and Jung's writing relating to it is that many do not want to admit the power over us of these unregulated and unbalanced drives. Most of us play civilised ... until the button is pushed or the thin veneer is stripped back, then, as has often been said , Man behaves worse than any animal !

 

This ( across the field ... ie. of time and locations) is the essence of initiation ;  An animal (human ) with all its drives and conditionings is born and the preliminary initiation is an 'adoption' into a tribe or group. Then they must be made into a 'social animal', learn to regulate their primitive drives and conditions and go through individuation - learning about their individual identity and their collective social identity, the trade offs and advantages of this  ( what you must give up , eg 'selfishness' and what  you will gain  eg. ' support and sharing ) Thats the first level of initiation/s - the 'animal child ' has learnt to be a  human 'culturally and socially'.  The next level, they are initiated  into 'magicians' , they have learnt to integrate  their unconscious , individual and collective .

 

Now, imagine what happens when people start doing the 2nd without the first  !     A big mess.

 

Hmm well sure, the Freudian Id issues is certainly baked into this issue,

though I think it is psychologically slightly more complex.

As I think Freud was projecting his own psychology into his theories,

in other words assuming that everyone had the same complex constellations as himself.

 

Which in some ways are the issue I'm trying to point at here.

Because at the end of the day, we have built up different complexes in our encounters with the world.

And these in combination with how the "planets/archangels" (whatever you want to call them)

influence us, shapes our perception and reaction to the world,

in such a way that one cannot just think in terms of one psychology.

Hence any traditional rule set, is just a projected result of a certain mode of being,

and only those that fall into the same complex range, will relate to that mode of being.

While others, like @Desmonddf or even the OP of this thread, will naturally have a lot of disdain for it.

 

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Yes, I do realise this is not a popular view in today's world .  Many seem to think that the right to be heard and express one's view  is the same as  '  I have the right to be right '

 

And that is the crux of the issue isn't it, everyone flows from a different sun.

A different will manifesting in Tifereth, and from that will, they demand the right to be right.

Of course if they confront Geburah and face down Binah and Chokhmah.

Then of course there comes a difficult choice at the gates of Kether.

Because to make the realizations of those levels into a permanent feature, means abandoning the sun of Tifereth.

Which is a huge sacrifice that would cast the whole lower level of the tree in shadow.

Hence why people float around in the abyss in torment forever,

as their fragile ego is not strong enough to cut the chains to Tifereth.

And really why would one do so?

Jung brings up examples of people who have switched everything around and embraced the opposite.

Origen with his self-mutilation, Tertulian with his denouncement of reason.

And finally Paul who have the vision of Jesus in the desert that turn him into the thing he chases, namely a heretic.

 

All three are bitten by an almost fanatical urge towards their new orientation, because the sacrifice of their previous sun,

means that they have so much to prove to themselves, to make sure that the sacrifice was really worth it.

I'm not sure then if fanaticism could have it's root in being thrown into one's repressed opposite then.

Which would in some ways have more in common with the anima/animus concept rather than the shadow.

 

Now having said all that, I'm fully aware that my stance of this bears a quite clear mark of subjectivity.

A subjectivity that to you will seem unfounded and hence just plain wrong.

But that is my own connection to Netzach -> Venus, and which is most easily reached via the Moon in Yesod.

Via the path that is represented by the Tarot suit the star, or the path from Malkhuth

which ironically is represented by the Tarot suit the moon.

 

On can cross from Hod, I guess with the Tarot card of the tower, exposing illusion to reality,

and reality to illusion, and creating a constant self-correcting loop of inner and outer.

Which is healthy, but really hard to keep up, especially if one is in a bad place mentally.

 

But to move towards wholeness, one needs to balance one's illusions with reality.

Else we cannot live a full and happy life, which sadly means fighting others over figments of our imaginations,

in the name of inner psychic stability.

 

So it is no wonder then that there is a marked indifference by many to embrace the parts of reality that we ourselves accept.

As those cherry picked areas, are just our own grounding in the real world.

 

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It tends to break down more when one is communicating via  ' just me processing this from my own frame'  and rambling.

 

Which we all do from time to time     

 

This is more or less the same thing I said shorter and more dismissive.

As if it is an issue of no importance, that we can never really get along.

And in one sense it isn't since as Jung pointed out, there is no bridge and can't be any bridge.

Except perhaps everyone becoming wholesome enlightened saints in the true spirit of the word,

which of course is ridiculous.

 

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Both standpoints mutually deny each other their chief value. The more resolutely the representatives of either standpoint identify themself with their own point of view, the more do they mutually strive, with the best intentions perhaps, to obtrude their own standpoint and thereby violate the other's chief value.

Carl Jung - Psychological types

 

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psyche is of the world, not just of us as individuals

 

This comment from Patrick Harpur is correct, but not very useful as pointing at the mind having elements of the world,

the  psyche will again have only cherry picked elements of it, because it isn't possible to contain the whole world in our mind.

"The map is not the territory" as Alfred Korzybski said.

And our inner representation of the world is just a map, and only a map.

Our outer representation of the world in systems and alike, is only just maps also,

projected maps from someone's internal representation.

 

So we then find ourselves in this peculiar situation that we have no idea what is really going on in the territory.

As the mounting problems of quantum physics are driving home more and more clearly.

Cause right now, all it boils down to are models and statistical approximations with ranges of standard variations,

that makes more and more far fetched guesses on the state of particles/waves/energies around us.

Science has more or less hit a brick wall, and hence we cannot really look to it to help us deal with our demons and angels.

Though I don't doubt that there is much utility still to be gotten from physics.

 

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And it isnt JUST creative output, that is part of the whole 'soul dynamic' and process .

 

Yeah it is complex as fuck, which is why it is easy for you to just superficially jump from one variable to another.

Always pointing out that it isn't JUST when you get bored with the implications of one.

To me although that is certainly part of the real world representation of it.

It becomes a shallow way to touch on the problem.

I guess in the end we can't have both deep and wide, as the resulting model would take forever to compute.

A big reason why complex weather models and such who really try to be accurate,

need crazy big supercomputers that can crunch massive amounts of data.

And still they are not accurate, because the real world is just too much to represent perfectly.

 

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I think i was Robert Anton Wilson that made up (or borrowed from reality) the story of the  'Occult lecture' given to the public and at the end the lecturer said something like 'And now I will open the floor to questions, where you may quizz me on all the things you thought I said, which I didnt . "

 

Do remember that you are not the only person being addressed here.

That post was meant to address a triangle of issues including Desmonddf and me.

As a bridge though it is very sadly useless,

which is underlined by the Jungian quote above about chief values.

 

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I don't care how long anyone has practiced, if they have no shadow, then they are indeed dead.

And would very much qualify as representatives of the phenomena of this thread,

as beings without a soul.

 

To me, when people claim to have all pieces to the puzzle,

I think of them as claiming to stand at both sides of the sun.

And claiming that this cancels out their shadow.

I know I'm straining the metaphor right here.

 

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Thats a curious observation since I was pointing out that  I integrate BOTH sides of the  polarities that Desmond was separating .IE;

" You cant only have it one way" 

 

When people point out that they are integrated, there is a problem of subjectivity.

As I don't doubt for a second that in terms of your own yard lines, there has been an integration.

Trust me, I know how that works, having chosen the name I did.

For me, every time I go through a process of integration, I get some aspects handled.

But rest assured, if I do that same process again, there will be a new level of integration on that same thing.

Even if I do the same process a thousand times, there will be new levels of integration.

 

So when people claim that they have integrated end of story, I assume it is shallow.

A one time fix, compared to someone else's "something else".

As it is really hard to understand the state of being someone else is in, from the words they use.

They might be more integrated in real terms, but they conceptualize so differently about the phenomena,

that they don't even bother to make such a claim.

Or they could be completely deluded, which is always a possibility.

 

But when someone has words of wisdom mixed in, and seem to fall into Jungian lines of cognitive divide.

I find it much more correct to assume that the Jungian divide is the problem, rather than them just being misguided.

I love the clash of perception that is going on in this thread between @Nungali and @Desmonddf

 

Personally I find myself at a different level than both of them, and I can recognize aspects from both that are relatable.

Different good or different bad, becomes of course a moral problem that is not easily solved.

As we are speaking of things that are not easily pulled apart by such cheap dualistic notions.

 

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The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one

can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become

conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present

and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge, and it

therefore, as a rule, meets with considerable resistance.

Carl Jung - Aion

 

When one encounters demons and angels one will of course be deep in the work already.

Yet the shadow cannot be dispelled just by effort alone, because to turn towards the shadow does not remove it.

And when the sun itself move, the shadow isn't countered, it is merely moved to another location.

 

Of course, the main problem I see here is one of talking past each other.

Being so merged in ones own manifestation of will that everyone else's is taken as false and useless.

Pointing to the flagrant shadows of the others, while completely denying ones own.

 

I don't care how long anyone has practiced, if they have no shadow, then they are indeed dead.

And would very much qualify as representatives of the phenomena of this thread,

as beings without a soul.

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

Yes a person can 'loose' their soul.

 

Observe a person that has been in a long term  job, relationship or situation that they do not want to be, where their individuality and creative output is stifled and you will see the results of 'soul loss'  .  Soul development and satisfaction is intimately linked with creative output

 

I agree that the soul shrinks in such a position, but it is not entirely lost.

If is more like in hibernation, a vague dream of something more.

I agree on creative output, yet there is more than one level of creative output,

it is only when one can unify all 4 elements in oneself that one is truly creative.

That is the point when one starts to knock on the gates of Kether,

and when one gets in all sorts of trouble because one is not ready for divinity.

As even the cooperation of the 4 elements is not enough to represent the totality of the self.

 

This is when the collective unconscious come into the picture, as we find that in the mass of humanity,

we are still nothing, and our contribution often are like grains of sand.

Though someone who manages to gather the elements have a good chance of becoming a notable player.

But even becoming an icon of history is not the same as touching divinity, though it is a lot closer than most get.

Because even icons of history will fade away long before the archetypes and other primal forces fade.

 

Which is why pride can be such a dangerous vice, (though it is hardly the only vice)

because it tempts one with things that although noble in a way,

still don't really help one on ones spiritual journey.

If it did, both Napoleon and Caesar would have been paragons of spirituality,

because of the mark they made on history and hence peoples ability to remember them long after.

Sure they made their will known, and hence was on a path of individuation in that sense,

but so is most people in some way or another, even though they might be trapped in bad circumstance.

They still bang their head against the wall every day,

because they know they should try to make something important happen.

 

So yeah, just me processing this from my own frame, which in some ways I know will conflict with others.

It is just an inevitable fact, and I have to accept that what I have to say will not be understood,

at least not in the sense I wanted it to be understood, because people will adapt it to their frame,

and hence give critique and praise based on that, and not based on what I set out to convey in essence.

Though now and then one gets pretty close, but even then it is just a superficial chemistry,

that on closer inspection will break down.

18 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

The tree can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, mostly like a caledoscope. It is an structure that mirrors itself on many levels.

 

If you're dealing with yourself, then that's ego. You're dealing with your psyche, and all of that can be understood as a single Tree of Life, yes.

 

More especifically, it is a way of accessing Hod in order to comprehend the Ego (which would be Tipheret on a Tree that represents your own image of yourself and how you work on a mental level).

 

But if you go to the more esoteric practices, such as invocation or evocation, then you'll see things like the Names of God or the Archangels of each Sephirot will go way beyond that

 

Of course, you CAN use those as many people have started to use goetia and say they are all archetypes or whatnot. I still haven't seen an archetype capable of destroying physical things like the contact with the Archangels has done with my life. My car is busted, things just stop working and break when I start doing something the Angels forbid me to.

 

Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless.

At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip.

When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place.

So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation.

Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after.

 

It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess.

 

I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach.

I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now.

Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this,

but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge,

else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all.

 

I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though.

I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks.

 

I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it.

Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location,

or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself.

With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain,

but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

- we are sorta all through it at the same time  AND have focus on and in  different parts of it  at  times as well.  The idea being in one place or one relationship, on the Tree, I think, comes from the old hermetic concept of advancing through the spheres ;

 

We incarnate down through the spheres (the planets - basically) and pick up their energies . Then in life our job is to go back up through the planets and refine and purify / balance  their energies, in turn,  arriving back at (in consciousness) the source .

 

Right, this was probably what I needed to understand.

The original intention of the whole damn thing.

Cause then I can judge what to do from there.

 

As the saying goes:

Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

  ^ 

 

Do what thou Wilt       

 

 - Let's see what happens if FIRST we introduce this concept to someone BEFORE they get into what Crowley was on about  with his idea of the 'True Will ' 

 

that is, of course, if our Integrated  new friend doesnt mind us experimenting on him  ?

 

 

 

BEFORE you read about Crowley's concept of the True Will, consider that he may have picked it up from Zoroastrianism  (via the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and their interest in 'Chaldean magic' ) concept of ' Khvarenah  '  ;

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#khvarenah

 

Just read that.

It matches pretty well what I had already conceived as will when it was mentioned at first.

Jung talks about these things (zoroastianism) and refers to them, but I've never really followed up on them.

But the ideas that Jung talks about, seem to be pretty similar from a psychological perspective.

Which is why I can be quite hard-headed at times, as I know my "lifepath" so to speak.

So I don't care for people trying to be relativistic about my stances.

It is the path I travel for good or bad, people in my life think I'm mad,

abandoning all semblances of traditional safety, yet always landing on my feet in a way that I can accept.

 

The only reason I'm entertaining Crowley is to be able to check if he has something to offer my take on Kabbalah.

If I get that information elsewhere I could care less, I sort of always had the feeling that Crowley was disconnected.

That he represented something problematic, if it is true or not I cannot say right now, but that is just my feeling.

@Desmonddf

I've redrawn one of my charts to reflect your Geburah protest.

In some ways I can see it making more sense.

I've put it over the old one for now,

and I will just have to see if things fall in place more smoothly now.

 

To restate from my new point of view:

 

I have control up to Tifereth from this perspective, Geburah I hate like the plague,

and is no small part why I fly off the handle in certain situations.

Or just get totally shut down.

 

Hmm if this perspective holds,

I have a new tool to measure where I stand in relation to certain pesky Jungian problems.

Oh well time will tell.

3 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

 

 

The Higher Self only exists in Geburah

After Geburah you'll have some higher things. The Ego itself might die at any moment, even when talking with the Higher Self, but as long as it still has something to do on earth, it will just regroup itself.

"Solve et Coagula". You'll reach the heavens once you solve your ego, but then you'll have to coagulate a new one if you want to be here.

 

I sincerely know nothing from Chesed and above. Can't say anything about it

 

Um well okay, I'm a bit unsure of if we have been talking past each other for a while now then, haha.

because if what you call higher self is in Geburah then obviously I was having the wrong idea about some of the things you wrote.

I'm not super versed in this stuff and I tend to think of the self as the whole tree of life, but that is the Jungian frame I guess.

 

But if we are only talking about Geburah as a principle I think I get a semblance of what you are pointing to here.

Though I will need time to process it, and my ramblings with you here is part of that process.

I have like 4 different images of the tree out in front of me to be able to follow along with you haha.

 

I can totally respect feeling the path from Geburah to Chesed being a difficult one.

I'm sort of struggling with wondering in what sense one would be traveling to one or the other.

As I personally feel we jump around all the time through life experiences,

but I have to guess that it is about holding the movement from one sefirot to another in consciousness.

Which is quite different from just occupying it unconsciously because the self wanted a trip there.

This challenges the notions I have about where I am in this tree consciously though.

 

I could say in hindsight that I visited Binah and Hokhmah, but when I think about it,

that was an unconscious mess, and it was certainly not my ego's doing.

Hod is usually a mess also, the whole pillar of severity is messed up.

Though I'd say that I have a pretty firm grip on the pillar of mercy up to Chesed,

and I feel like I'm accessing Geburah at some level from there.

The way I've come to interpret Kabbalah seems to make that possible,

but it is a limited way to live life, I'd admit that.

 

Unless I'm just totally wrong on how I interpret this stuff.

I have much of my basic knowledge of Kaballah from Robert Wang,

and since he links it to Tarot, I can link it up to Jungian archetypes from there.

That gives me a special take on the Kabbalah, and I may be misinterpreting a thing or two from other frames.

As I don't think that everyone has intellectual challenges in the pillar of severeity, and emotional in mercy.

Rather it depends on one's Jungian attitude, which is something I always consider when I learn something spiritual.

If I can't get that to fit, the system seems like garbage to me.

Anyway, regardless how this turns out, I'm thankful for you provoking me to consider these things.

It gives me a new thing to grapple with, I think I will reread Wang before I do anything else here.

So that I'm sure that the things I thought I read actually is the things I read.

1 hour ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Well, as you said, it has to do with what you call the "soul". If you're going with the definitions Crowley and Blavatsky settled, then there are cases in which the Higher Self "cuts" (not permanently in this world we live, but it works in others) the connection with the Ego and waits for it to die off.

 

My own Higher Self tried to do it, with some serious consequences for my ego in past and on this life as well. It is as if it stopped caring and looking into what the Ego is, effectively looking as if it was detached and had cut off the ego from itself. It seems like it used to work in places others than this planet, in which the ego would simply die off a little after it was cut (especialy in Sitra Achra), but it doesn't work here.

 

The problem is just that the ego, in this world, keeps on living even without the continuous presence of the Higher Self feeding energy and "existence" for it. Sometimes it even manages to get a body through reincarnation, and then we call those "people without souls" (just how I was before my current wife's Higher Self managed to get my own's attention... long story).

 

Blavatsky had a VERY negative view on this theme, but she was just very frustrated in many aspects of life - so that appears on all her works.

 

 

 

I can see how that cutting off would work yeah.

Being cast out from all grace in a way.

Meaning that all that is left is decay, endings and inability to be balanced.

Then collapsing down into illusion, appearances and inability to change.

 

It somehow seems that the most danger is on either end of the spectrum,

as long as one is pushing past Tifereth, one is negotiating with the higher self,

but if one abandons this negotiation, the self will grow indifferent.

At some point right before Kether, one will have intruded way beyond what the ego can naturally handle,

and it is my guess that the stability of Tifereth is at stake,

as if the beauty of the will must be traded away to cross the abyss.

And in doing so, the whole house of cards collapses, as one immediately rebounds into Malkhuth,

and one basically have to build up again from scratch, as the new will/beauty demands a different tribute.

As for the self, I'm unsure how it would view such an inner trade, if it would be amused, disgusted or indifferent.

 

*Of course this trade implies a death of the ego, so I guess that is the price of touching Kether,

but not only that, but a loss of will.

31 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Have you explored this thought/ belief? And if you have, to what extent?

 

And how would you apply this to your understanding of the dynamics of love and will as presented by Crowley (to keep this somewhat on topic)?

 

Crowley isn't really the topic here, but OPs wish to end thought, which have been quite well addressed I think.

 

As for Crowley I only know him superficially, and any mention I did of him,

was in response to someone else linking his ideas to Kabbalah I think.

Meaning Tifereth as will etc...

Pretty fascinating stuff, I might need to check out Crowley now.

 

But yeah I've explored it plenty, but from a Jungian frame among others, not in light of Crowley.

 

Quote

Is there any sense of personal "freedom" in writing this?

And have you internally explored what it is you're responding to and why?

 

It is like going on a vacation to a more liberal country.

Suddenly there is a lot of stuff that is normal and allowed, that previously was forbidden.

That can be both liberating and scary,

and part of the reason why it took me a year to return after I joined this forum the first time.

 

BKF isn't all bad, I don't doubt he got his ass kicked though.

Too many people holding lineage mantles are too occupied with everything but fighting.

They rest on their shadow-boxing fantasies as proof of their own merit.

 

He represents for me yet another perspective on Taoism.

I get that it can be controversial that there are more than one truth and canon in this world on different subjects.

But that is the world we live in, if that where not so, the world would have to be in absolute peace.

Somehow that is not so, which suggests that the matter is slightly more complex.

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

---etc---

 

As funny as this is to watch unfold.

I'm going to draw a line here.

I know I've been plenty unreasonable with you, (from a civilized point of view)

many of your accusations are probably valid to some extent.

 

But that is just the thing, people like us two, can't get along in a vacuum like this forum.

We need an external force threatening with sanctions if we don't behave up to societal standards.

I just don't like what you represent in your posts, and I'm not shy of telling you, since there are no real consequences.

I think you represent bullshit.

Though I see that the world need people like you in the final analysis, that doesn't mean that I must suffer you.

And since it is clear that if we keep this up our replies will just span never ending walls of texts of accusations,

I don't really see the point to continue time-wise, I have other plans today.

 

I didn't know it would turn out exactly like this,

so thanks for the educational experience of knowing how such a tangle will probably turn out.

Every other time I've been in this position online, a mod has come in to ruin the experience.

 

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

What  though  ?  .... a  lamb ... your first born  ?

 

At this point I think Earl Gray would be a fitting thing to throw on that altar.

 

Quote

I prefer to deal with Nuit  !

 

" I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice."   -     I : 38  The Book of the Law.  

 

Nuit? That is Nuts!

 

Quote

And dont start me on Hercules   !                What an exercise in failure !  

 

Well how could he be anything else?

After all, he is sort of representing our own failed nature,

and some of the more common traps we can fall into.

 

As for Hercules the series, I remember it vaguely being aired in my childhood.

Maybe I'll rewatch it in full for fun, that and Xena!

 

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

"but we both know it won't happen" - A little too certain of ourselves now, are we? You must be new either to the forum or new to the Art*

*The Art is the Tao, or whatever esoteric path you follow, not necessarily for spiritual sagacity but for making sense of the cosmos.

 

Am I?

You are free to believe whatever you want at this point.

I will however act as I see fit from the information I have available to me,

if that strikes you as being "new to the arts" then so be it.

 

Quote

"Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to.

Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation" - Reciprocity and the Golden Rule are not mutually exclusive, but I've found that they go hand in hand often if you work on your own ability to communicate, more on listening and understanding, as well as considering views outside of your own Belief System (your own BS for short) more than projecting.

 

Yeah I should abandon all frames of reference that has worked in the past just because you make a crude conflation here.

Belief system -> BS, I guess that is a fact in your eyes.

As for projecting, that is the natural state of the human psychology anyway, we cannot not project.

So feel free to level that critique all you want, just remember the glass house you are in.

 

Quote

"Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor.

I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting.

If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies.

It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in." - Assholeish? I wouldn't have characterized you as that. Overblown sense of misguided righteousness and unnecessary sanctimony, probably, but not an asshole. 

 

I'll let you in on a little secret, there is the outer asshole and the inner asshole.

When one feel assholeish, one isn't necessarily perceived as an asshole.

I know this might be hard for someone like you who think the externals is more or less all there is,

and hence try to make every sentence into a statement of external superiority.

 

It could of course be a mask to goad me on, try to hit a nerve again, with supposed test upon test, to test my level of enlightenment.

But to me, it seems more likely to be you just trying to fire arrows at me that you hope will kill me, because you fear me now.

 

Quote

"I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross" - Then by all means, build that bridge, but don't accuse me or be crediting me for the wall that you yourself put up by reacting before thinking. Your posts earlier didn't seem to indicate you read the whole thread or how my shift in tone and style were to match what you said rather than what I had earlier written. 

 

Haha build that bridge!!!

You know man, that is the funniest thing I've heard in a while.

I'm gonna have a big smile all day.

Maybe I didn't pay as much attention to elements of the thread that you feel I should have.

 

Quote

By the way, you seem to indicate that playing in the mud is a bad thing. Nungali lives in the countryside in a commune and I worked in global development, so I've had a lot of hands-on work in agriculture and rural kids. Get your hands dirty for a change and you will discover that tendency to act precious quickly disappears--this is something my Southern friends love to say to city slickers and coastal urbanites. 

 

More taunts at weak points you think I have.

You just don't stop failing to trigger me with your assumptions do you?

 

Quote

Yep, ace wisdom from our favorite trickster teacher on the forum.  I don't know about others, but me personally, and from what I saw in your responses to the OP, there was no malice or pride whatsoever, just honest questions about the odd interpretations presented as facts and absolutes that didn't seem to be aware of the inherent contradictions made by him often in the same post. 

 

Well I'm done with the whole debacle of which side has the right perspective, as I said, that chasm is unbridgeable.

You will forever feel you are superior and correct,

as you will not admit that there are other points of view that hold merit than your own.

I do see you point of view quite clearly, but I will not take your side, as your pov isn't the same as mine.

Not only that, but since you fail to accepts others subjective stance, any olive branch will be perceived by you as a submission.

You will slap on a chain and proclaim a wonderful period of peace, while everyone else is slaving for you in the fields.

 

Quote

I'm going to repeat an old story here before about people missing the point and not understanding the sources they claim to cite: a guy argued with my friend and me about Buddha and things he said and taught and how he was a terrible individual. We're nodding our heads and he goes on and on about how Buddha was in China. Our eyebrows raise as he rants...and then we ask him why he appears to be talking about Confucius. He then states, "Well, they're the same person, d'uh!" and at that point we didn't even bother listening to what he said. He then accused us of being narrow-minded and ignorant and mean for arguing with him. Apparently, fact checking makes you an asshole. And this was before the Internet. 

 

Sure, I don't doubt he had his facts wrong, that is not the point here, and hence you fail to see the point just as much.

Not that I blame you, just as I don't blame people who contribute to systemic problems beyond their control.

But when those actions stand to hurt me as an individual, I must draw a line, with your understanding or not.

 

Quote

"At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other.

One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge,

this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis" - Quite the optimist, aren't we? 

 

Well if this long post you just made had not been mocking/superior/etc, I might have had to rethink my stance.

But you just keep on going.

You lack the subtle twists that Nungali has, I guess that is why you look up to him.

 

Quote

Hercules also ended up with 12 labors because he was a bit too clever for wording given to him for his original 10, but in doing so he screwed himself over by not actually developing the skills he needed to build his character that the tests were designed for him to learn.

 

Yeah so?

What does that have to do with the Boar association I made?

Oh wait, this is just another subtle stab at me, because that is the whole gist of your narrative.

This other person need to be taught their place, everything they say is an indication that they don't know enough.

I toned down my stance as a little test you know.

In fact I thought you had run off in pure terror hiding behind Nungali,

I actually ignorelisted you as irrelevant noise, so I had to unignore you to check what this was about.

Maybe you thought Nungali had tamed me or something haha.

 

Quote

There's also arguably an energetic alchemical growth parallel to this, but I have it in my notes somewhere and don't feel like digging into them on a beautiful Sunday morning when I get to enjoy a smoothie and a roast beef and cheese sandwich here before I go do some training, enjoy the newspaper and a book (Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich), and marathon gaming on the Nintendo Switch. 

 

Oh the burn of your perfect existence is too much for me!

Am I to feel that if I respond on this perfect sunday, that you have snubbed me or something?

Hahaha I still don't give a shit!

Though it is interesting to be able to do this kind of dynamic without mods cancelling the flamewar,

but I'm sure it will get old soon.

As for your attempt at getting me to spill the beans by pretending you already know all the secrets to the labors.

Well I could care less if you do, and if you do, then you are probably faking your superior attitude as a test,

because that seem to be the goto failsafe argument at least, and even that is subtly alluded to.

 

Whether you are actually enjoying yourself and not feeling any disturbance to match the attitude you have,

or if you are sitting angry in front of your computer doesn't matter to me.

I tried to relate by talking topic, and you decided to be an ass back. (as I predicted would happen)

Not that I wasn't expecting it, but it seems from your words that I was too lenient in my first reply to you.

Because I told you that you should look at that splinter in your eye, but it looks more and more like a beam.

That is about all, enjoy your perfect life, your perfect knowledge and your perfect peace of mind.

If that is really what you have, good for you!

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Of course there is . You seem knowledgeable on a range of subjects that interest me and others here .  If you are reasonable, can support what you say with reference to text, experience, good observation, etc . If you can answer a question, if you dont engage in silly tactics regarding the way the discussion or debate goes (like the ones pointed out here by me and Earl ( eg)  .

 

Try it .  you might be surprised .

 

 

Sure, I don't doubt that there is a possibility of learning from each other here.

I think you will find that we share some values when it comes to that,

but I think you will also find that certain of my other values trump those values in my value hierarchy.

 

At the end of the day though, we all are unleashing our own problematic tendencies on each other.

One of the big reason I see no hope for a permanent bridge,

this little break in things really don't change the meta-analysis.

 

Which remind me of the Erymanthian Boar from Hercules fourth labor.

I wonder if the Boar on the top of the forum has any connection to that, if so, that would be interesting.

If not, it seems to fit what I observe in this forum anyway, an outlet for repressed tendencies.

It felt kinda good to be able to be assholeish over this whole thing, without having mods stepping in.

 

Quote

But if anyone starts acting like a real dick ... well ......

 

I wasn't being enough of a dick?

Damn...

I need to go make a sacrifice to Ares, so I can really get in the zone!

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

My music bubble includes  Philip Glass,  Nina Hargen,  Prop ( astro jazz) ,  Tool,  Mike Oldfield,  Sade,  and Evelyn Glennie ( who happens to be deaf ( she plays by feeling the vibration through her feet ), Sultana , Material .... among others   ( see my posts in the music thread  for more ) ;

 

 

 

mhmm, cool man!

6 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Those who are more familiar with eastern meditation practices may have more in common with the original question, compared to the Western Esoteric Tradition. It seems as if its a question about stopping thoughts in meditation. I'm stating the obvious I know.  

 

 

 

Yes silencing the monkey mind.

 

I think the best western parallel would be the Greek myth

of Hercules fight with the Stymphalian Birds in his sixth labor.

To me it represents symbolically the need to crowd out the negative thoughts with some counter like a mantra.

The birds being  negative messengers of the unconscious

and the mantra being the rattles Hercules used to scare them away.

Both forged by different fires, one from Ares the other from Athena via Hephaestus.

Ares being the destructive impulse and Athena being a more refined approach.

 

22 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

In the sense of the spirit of one-upmanship.

 

 

 

Ah yeah, well that is the game that is played isn't it?

 

I'd love to just relate as @ilumairen pointed out, but we both know it won't happen.

@Nungali need to save face to preserve his online persona, and I just don't give a shit.

Chiefly because I've met too many like him, and don't really feel like being more respectful than I have to.

Which means that I don't have to show much respect at all, since this forum is pretty lax on moderation.

 

I mean if there was a real bridge over this chasm, I'd be one of the first ones lining up to cross.

But as far as I know there isn't, and most people telling otherwise have an agenda of control and domination.

Would love if it where not so, but many of us have participated enough in the real world, to know how things are.

If one reads say Jung, the picture doesn't become any prettier either, we are doomed to repeat this.

The best we can hope for is saving ourselves as best we can,

and maybe just maybe humanity will figure things out a few thousand years down the line.

 

Quote

"...now the enantiodromia begins. Instead of taking for granted, as every rationalist and optimist is inclined to do,

that a good state will be followed by a better, since everything tends towards "upward development", the man of

blameless conscience and universally acknowledged moral principles makes a compact with Behemoth and his evil host, and even the divine children entrusted to his care is bartered to the devil."

Carl Jung - Psychological Types

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Ahhh a retro teenage metal head !     I should have known !

 

It is funny that you seem out to hit every button you think I have.

 

You know,

in this day and age,

people are allowed through technology to be exposed to music they never even would admit to.

I get that it must be confusing to you in your little stereotypical bubble,

even though you try your best by linking 3 stereotypes together to compensate.

 

In fact people expanding their musical horizons have become a huge trend recently.

So much so that some people make a living having other people watch them expand their horizons.

But I again, get how this can be confusing to someone sheltered in a bubble

 

 

5 hours ago, Everything said:

Your heart is your acces to your soul. 

 

But your soul is not physical. And yet, your are inseperable. Tho, you can think your way into experiencing lesser states of connectivity, and thus lesser states knowingness, as soon as you let go of thinking and trust your heart, you can easily find your way back home to infinite intelligence and eternal wisdom. Because it's actually your natural state of being. You don't even need to accomplish it. Because you are already doing it 24/7.

 

To the degree that you do feel very good emotionally, you also realise that you are. It also feels good, because it is compatible with your true nature. 

 

I do like where you are coming from in terms of heart, and I do agree that at least for me heart and soul is connected.

But how do we really know that everyone else can connect up naturally in the same way?

To me it seems people who have had an intellectual focus would have a very different path to take,

and that heart isn't necessarily something that is accessible right away.

Even though  it surely is happening all the time anyway, the consciousness of the intellectual

need to go through a lot of trials to get there, and the most glaring distraction,

is the hovering just outside of Kethers reach so to speak, intoxicated by being so near, but yet so far away.

Which is of course a trap anyone can fall in.

 

I'd like to say respectfully that from what I've read @Mskied has spent 20 years trying to cross that divide.

That is a long ass time to invest into something.

I think one of the traps off all this is to idealize any part of our being.

It being the higher self, heart, thinking or even the appearance of Malkhuth.

Now from what I've read, he is trying to get rid of thinking and replace it with nothing.

In other words the equivalent of silencing the monkey mind.

But without heart and the ability to connect emotionally to self and others,

then one in my imagination would be left with some numb silence.

If I would classify the situation, I'd say that he has abandoned his soul and the work it entails,

to chase flighty spirits that pop in and out of the abyss.

 

This is just a big assumption on my part, but I cannot really do anything else than point out how things seem to me.