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    Torturing Demons
  1. Do What Thou Wilt

    @Mskied I see the usual suspects are up to their usual business. It has a quality of deja vu now... I like many of the arguments you make, makes a lot of sense actually. But I'm going to give you a little challenge, isn't this just fitness on another level? If one is unfit one doesn't make it, if one makes it one is fit. Meaning that fitness has more to do with the environment than anything else. This environment is particularly testing, as many here is basically doing their best to grind you down. Are they monsters? In a way... I liked the point you made about art, people who try to set standards on others self expression of art, are really quite oppressive people; it wouldn't be wrong to term it predatory.
  2. Knowledge is very simple

    @Mskied Personally I feel like I'm on my own path, playing my own game. Sure it involves others, but I have more or less defined what moves are valid in encounters with them. Of course every day something new happens, and new possibilities open. Every day the ideas I had about the game gets challenged. But as long as I know my path and I play the game as best I can, then I have no regrets, I don't want anything in particular either. Within limits of course, I'm not about to profess myself an enlightened saint or anything. Rather I often find myself within a flow and others are baffled that someone could even wish to take my path. If one isn't being weird and out there in contrast to everyone else on a normalized path, then one is profoundly unsuccessful and ultimately have failed oneself. Only by going on some epic adventure by ones own design can one ultimately find what one want and needs. Sure there will be trials, issues and setbacks, and objectively one can get into all sorts of troubles. Yet if we don't do that, then life is more or less nothing.
  3. Humans Without Souls

    Yeah astrology was never my thing, so I put little stock in the planets. Interesting to know that they have a basic setup like that. Though my interest in it is still low, probably because I feel it is wrong on some level. The though just hit me that the movement of the planets could be compared to the shuffling of the Tarot deck. Then whatever tale the planets tell, would just be like a Tarot spread. If that is indeed the way they do it, that would be funny, and would remove much of my skepticism.
  4. Humans Without Souls

    Yeah I get that you have a totally different stance on how stuff like this works than me. Yet since I haven't walked in your shoes, I cannot really take on your frame. For me, many of the things you say take on a level of impossibility. This may be because I'm very much mired in the western frame of mind. As Jung said about the problem. Maybe you are able to metabolize this information in another way, and hence don't need psychology to make it accessible to you. That is good for you, but for me, I'm too comfortable in an abstracted take on things. I may never touch the matter as you do, but I derive great benefits regardless. Even though I may not think about the Angels/Demons in the same way, I do see the carnage they generate regardless, their imprint is just as much there for me to see. I just chose to approach them from a different frame, so to speak. As you yourself said, they don't really give a shit about us and our agendas, so why should I care about how I approach them, if they don't give a damn either way? I suffer just the same, if I go down one or another path.
  5. Humans Without Souls

    Ah right, hmm.... Well from what I know of the planets, that makes little sense to me. I guess you are trying to show some dynamic what should be going on, but to me it seems pretty random at this point. I may not be familiar enough with all the nomenclature you use nor the planets themselves as placeholders. Testing testing... Well okay, I guess I see certain patterns now. Though I have forgotten what you where trying to say that I misunderstood. Ah okay, perhaps, it makes sense that Mercury/Hod generates a shadow, as it is a big driver for action. The Geburah <-> Netzach connection is interesting, and I guess I can see that. Yeah. Well sure on a superficial manifestation level, one could sort similarities and such. But when we have concepts like Sefirot that show the structures they jump out of. It doesn't really matter to me what forms the cultural zeitgeist is spewing out at any given time. People fake for all sorts of reason, usually because of status. Once something becomes important in a group, because it is "higher", then you can bet that half the members are trying to figure out ways to take shortcuts to the esteemed position. Personally I don't care much for groups like that, whenever the hierarchy gets too high and one have to jump through hoops, I'm usually looking for the exits. Sort of like the cat in animal farm, when the pigs take over. I come back if things calm down though. The dream of your mother makes sense, knowing what you have been up to. Your ego seem fairly strong from this side of the internet. Might be so. Well I always assume people don't, as it is a rule of thumb that is right in a majority of cases. Even when they don't admit it also. Yeah pretty much. Okay, well yeah if one wants to drag in stuff like genes or collective unconscious, then obviously there is no end to it in the personal conscious and personal unconscious. Yet I don't really bother to pester myself with such concepts in this discussion of wholeness. It is enough I think to be whole on ones own playground first. To be one with everything, although arguably a higher and nobler ideal by some standards. Strikes me as something that is beyond the spirit of our time. Well you are welcome to your opinion. Yeah, I guess I'm just tired of certain dynamics, and when I see similar patterns I just fire from the hip. Compared to a lot of people who have an air of "enlightened BS" you are kind of okay. Not that counts as a bridge in my eyes though. There is always something new to take hold off to figure out. It just depend how much time one has to sacrifice for it. Time waits for no one!
  6. Humans Without Souls

    Okay first off!!! LOL The card DAMMIT!!! The card!!!
  7. Humans Without Souls

    @Nungali Okay you really followed me into a lot of rabbit holes here. Yes I usually adopt a Jungian frame on things, mainly because I had a long period under his spell, so to speak. So that perspective is more evolved in me. I assume that you are referring to Tiferet - Sun -> Yesod - Moon -> Hod -> Mercury? If so, I can get aboard that understanding of it, the moon being a form of shadow. From a Jungian point of view I guess we could say that it is the opposite attitude of the same function. Though that is more or less me equating that shadow to be say an Introverted feeler taking on an Extraverted feeler mask. If you get where I'm going with it, a sort of direct compensation of the main attitude function to cover up the main flaw of the personality. In the case of the example used, extraverting feeling, rather than face the repressed thinking. This is of course me trying to fit such a system in with Jung, and has certain intuitive leaps without empirical backing. Though from watching myself and others, it seems to fit pretty well. Hmm well sure, the Freudian Id issues is certainly baked into this issue, though I think it is psychologically slightly more complex. As I think Freud was projecting his own psychology into his theories, in other words assuming that everyone had the same complex constellations as himself. Which in some ways are the issue I'm trying to point at here. Because at the end of the day, we have built up different complexes in our encounters with the world. And these in combination with how the "planets/archangels" (whatever you want to call them) influence us, shapes our perception and reaction to the world, in such a way that one cannot just think in terms of one psychology. Hence any traditional rule set, is just a projected result of a certain mode of being, and only those that fall into the same complex range, will relate to that mode of being. While others, like @Desmonddf or even the OP of this thread, will naturally have a lot of disdain for it. And that is the crux of the issue isn't it, everyone flows from a different sun. A different will manifesting in Tifereth, and from that will, they demand the right to be right. Of course if they confront Geburah and face down Binah and Chokhmah. Then of course there comes a difficult choice at the gates of Kether. Because to make the realizations of those levels into a permanent feature, means abandoning the sun of Tifereth. Which is a huge sacrifice that would cast the whole lower level of the tree in shadow. Hence why people float around in the abyss in torment forever, as their fragile ego is not strong enough to cut the chains to Tifereth. And really why would one do so? Jung brings up examples of people who have switched everything around and embraced the opposite. Origen with his self-mutilation, Tertulian with his denouncement of reason. And finally Paul who have the vision of Jesus in the desert that turn him into the thing he chases, namely a heretic. All three are bitten by an almost fanatical urge towards their new orientation, because the sacrifice of their previous sun, means that they have so much to prove to themselves, to make sure that the sacrifice was really worth it. I'm not sure then if fanaticism could have it's root in being thrown into one's repressed opposite then. Which would in some ways have more in common with the anima/animus concept rather than the shadow. Now having said all that, I'm fully aware that my stance of this bears a quite clear mark of subjectivity. A subjectivity that to you will seem unfounded and hence just plain wrong. But that is my own connection to Netzach -> Venus, and which is most easily reached via the Moon in Yesod. Via the path that is represented by the Tarot suit the star, or the path from Malkhuth which ironically is represented by the Tarot suit the moon. On can cross from Hod, I guess with the Tarot card of the tower, exposing illusion to reality, and reality to illusion, and creating a constant self-correcting loop of inner and outer. Which is healthy, but really hard to keep up, especially if one is in a bad place mentally. But to move towards wholeness, one needs to balance one's illusions with reality. Else we cannot live a full and happy life, which sadly means fighting others over figments of our imaginations, in the name of inner psychic stability. So it is no wonder then that there is a marked indifference by many to embrace the parts of reality that we ourselves accept. As those cherry picked areas, are just our own grounding in the real world. This is more or less the same thing I said shorter and more dismissive. As if it is an issue of no importance, that we can never really get along. And in one sense it isn't since as Jung pointed out, there is no bridge and can't be any bridge. Except perhaps everyone becoming wholesome enlightened saints in the true spirit of the word, which of course is ridiculous. This comment from Patrick Harpur is correct, but not very useful as pointing at the mind having elements of the world, the psyche will again have only cherry picked elements of it, because it isn't possible to contain the whole world in our mind. "The map is not the territory" as Alfred Korzybski said. And our inner representation of the world is just a map, and only a map. Our outer representation of the world in systems and alike, is only just maps also, projected maps from someone's internal representation. So we then find ourselves in this peculiar situation that we have no idea what is really going on in the territory. As the mounting problems of quantum physics are driving home more and more clearly. Cause right now, all it boils down to are models and statistical approximations with ranges of standard variations, that makes more and more far fetched guesses on the state of particles/waves/energies around us. Science has more or less hit a brick wall, and hence we cannot really look to it to help us deal with our demons and angels. Though I don't doubt that there is much utility still to be gotten from physics. Yeah it is complex as fuck, which is why it is easy for you to just superficially jump from one variable to another. Always pointing out that it isn't JUST when you get bored with the implications of one. To me although that is certainly part of the real world representation of it. It becomes a shallow way to touch on the problem. I guess in the end we can't have both deep and wide, as the resulting model would take forever to compute. A big reason why complex weather models and such who really try to be accurate, need crazy big supercomputers that can crunch massive amounts of data. And still they are not accurate, because the real world is just too much to represent perfectly. Do remember that you are not the only person being addressed here. That post was meant to address a triangle of issues including Desmonddf and me. As a bridge though it is very sadly useless, which is underlined by the Jungian quote above about chief values. To me, when people claim to have all pieces to the puzzle, I think of them as claiming to stand at both sides of the sun. And claiming that this cancels out their shadow. I know I'm straining the metaphor right here. When people point out that they are integrated, there is a problem of subjectivity. As I don't doubt for a second that in terms of your own yard lines, there has been an integration. Trust me, I know how that works, having chosen the name I did. For me, every time I go through a process of integration, I get some aspects handled. But rest assured, if I do that same process again, there will be a new level of integration on that same thing. Even if I do the same process a thousand times, there will be new levels of integration. So when people claim that they have integrated end of story, I assume it is shallow. A one time fix, compared to someone else's "something else". As it is really hard to understand the state of being someone else is in, from the words they use. They might be more integrated in real terms, but they conceptualize so differently about the phenomena, that they don't even bother to make such a claim. Or they could be completely deluded, which is always a possibility. But when someone has words of wisdom mixed in, and seem to fall into Jungian lines of cognitive divide. I find it much more correct to assume that the Jungian divide is the problem, rather than them just being misguided.
  8. Humans Without Souls

    I love the clash of perception that is going on in this thread between @Nungali and @Desmonddf Personally I find myself at a different level than both of them, and I can recognize aspects from both that are relatable. Different good or different bad, becomes of course a moral problem that is not easily solved. As we are speaking of things that are not easily pulled apart by such cheap dualistic notions. When one encounters demons and angels one will of course be deep in the work already. Yet the shadow cannot be dispelled just by effort alone, because to turn towards the shadow does not remove it. And when the sun itself move, the shadow isn't countered, it is merely moved to another location. Of course, the main problem I see here is one of talking past each other. Being so merged in ones own manifestation of will that everyone else's is taken as false and useless. Pointing to the flagrant shadows of the others, while completely denying ones own. I don't care how long anyone has practiced, if they have no shadow, then they are indeed dead. And would very much qualify as representatives of the phenomena of this thread, as beings without a soul. I agree that the soul shrinks in such a position, but it is not entirely lost. If is more like in hibernation, a vague dream of something more. I agree on creative output, yet there is more than one level of creative output, it is only when one can unify all 4 elements in oneself that one is truly creative. That is the point when one starts to knock on the gates of Kether, and when one gets in all sorts of trouble because one is not ready for divinity. As even the cooperation of the 4 elements is not enough to represent the totality of the self. This is when the collective unconscious come into the picture, as we find that in the mass of humanity, we are still nothing, and our contribution often are like grains of sand. Though someone who manages to gather the elements have a good chance of becoming a notable player. But even becoming an icon of history is not the same as touching divinity, though it is a lot closer than most get. Because even icons of history will fade away long before the archetypes and other primal forces fade. Which is why pride can be such a dangerous vice, (though it is hardly the only vice) because it tempts one with things that although noble in a way, still don't really help one on ones spiritual journey. If it did, both Napoleon and Caesar would have been paragons of spirituality, because of the mark they made on history and hence peoples ability to remember them long after. Sure they made their will known, and hence was on a path of individuation in that sense, but so is most people in some way or another, even though they might be trapped in bad circumstance. They still bang their head against the wall every day, because they know they should try to make something important happen. So yeah, just me processing this from my own frame, which in some ways I know will conflict with others. It is just an inevitable fact, and I have to accept that what I have to say will not be understood, at least not in the sense I wanted it to be understood, because people will adapt it to their frame, and hence give critique and praise based on that, and not based on what I set out to convey in essence. Though now and then one gets pretty close, but even then it is just a superficial chemistry, that on closer inspection will break down.
  9. Humans Without Souls

    Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless. At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip. When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place. So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation. Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after. It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess. I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach. I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now. Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this, but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge, else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all. I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though. I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks. I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it. Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location, or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself. With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain, but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.
  10. Humans Without Souls

    Right, this was probably what I needed to understand. The original intention of the whole damn thing. Cause then I can judge what to do from there. As the saying goes: Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.
  11. An end to the intellect?

    Just read that. It matches pretty well what I had already conceived as will when it was mentioned at first. Jung talks about these things (zoroastianism) and refers to them, but I've never really followed up on them. But the ideas that Jung talks about, seem to be pretty similar from a psychological perspective. Which is why I can be quite hard-headed at times, as I know my "lifepath" so to speak. So I don't care for people trying to be relativistic about my stances. It is the path I travel for good or bad, people in my life think I'm mad, abandoning all semblances of traditional safety, yet always landing on my feet in a way that I can accept. The only reason I'm entertaining Crowley is to be able to check if he has something to offer my take on Kabbalah. If I get that information elsewhere I could care less, I sort of always had the feeling that Crowley was disconnected. That he represented something problematic, if it is true or not I cannot say right now, but that is just my feeling.
  12. Humans Without Souls

    @Desmonddf I've redrawn one of my charts to reflect your Geburah protest. In some ways I can see it making more sense. I've put it over the old one for now, and I will just have to see if things fall in place more smoothly now. To restate from my new point of view: I have control up to Tifereth from this perspective, Geburah I hate like the plague, and is no small part why I fly off the handle in certain situations. Or just get totally shut down. Hmm if this perspective holds, I have a new tool to measure where I stand in relation to certain pesky Jungian problems. Oh well time will tell.
  13. Humans Without Souls

    Um well okay, I'm a bit unsure of if we have been talking past each other for a while now then, haha. because if what you call higher self is in Geburah then obviously I was having the wrong idea about some of the things you wrote. I'm not super versed in this stuff and I tend to think of the self as the whole tree of life, but that is the Jungian frame I guess. But if we are only talking about Geburah as a principle I think I get a semblance of what you are pointing to here. Though I will need time to process it, and my ramblings with you here is part of that process. I have like 4 different images of the tree out in front of me to be able to follow along with you haha. I can totally respect feeling the path from Geburah to Chesed being a difficult one. I'm sort of struggling with wondering in what sense one would be traveling to one or the other. As I personally feel we jump around all the time through life experiences, but I have to guess that it is about holding the movement from one sefirot to another in consciousness. Which is quite different from just occupying it unconsciously because the self wanted a trip there. This challenges the notions I have about where I am in this tree consciously though. I could say in hindsight that I visited Binah and Hokhmah, but when I think about it, that was an unconscious mess, and it was certainly not my ego's doing. Hod is usually a mess also, the whole pillar of severity is messed up. Though I'd say that I have a pretty firm grip on the pillar of mercy up to Chesed, and I feel like I'm accessing Geburah at some level from there. The way I've come to interpret Kabbalah seems to make that possible, but it is a limited way to live life, I'd admit that. Unless I'm just totally wrong on how I interpret this stuff. I have much of my basic knowledge of Kaballah from Robert Wang, and since he links it to Tarot, I can link it up to Jungian archetypes from there. That gives me a special take on the Kabbalah, and I may be misinterpreting a thing or two from other frames. As I don't think that everyone has intellectual challenges in the pillar of severeity, and emotional in mercy. Rather it depends on one's Jungian attitude, which is something I always consider when I learn something spiritual. If I can't get that to fit, the system seems like garbage to me. Anyway, regardless how this turns out, I'm thankful for you provoking me to consider these things. It gives me a new thing to grapple with, I think I will reread Wang before I do anything else here. So that I'm sure that the things I thought I read actually is the things I read.
  14. Humans Without Souls

    I can see how that cutting off would work yeah. Being cast out from all grace in a way. Meaning that all that is left is decay, endings and inability to be balanced. Then collapsing down into illusion, appearances and inability to change. It somehow seems that the most danger is on either end of the spectrum, as long as one is pushing past Tifereth, one is negotiating with the higher self, but if one abandons this negotiation, the self will grow indifferent. At some point right before Kether, one will have intruded way beyond what the ego can naturally handle, and it is my guess that the stability of Tifereth is at stake, as if the beauty of the will must be traded away to cross the abyss. And in doing so, the whole house of cards collapses, as one immediately rebounds into Malkhuth, and one basically have to build up again from scratch, as the new will/beauty demands a different tribute. As for the self, I'm unsure how it would view such an inner trade, if it would be amused, disgusted or indifferent. *Of course this trade implies a death of the ego, so I guess that is the price of touching Kether, but not only that, but a loss of will.
  15. An end to the intellect?

    Crowley isn't really the topic here, but OPs wish to end thought, which have been quite well addressed I think. As for Crowley I only know him superficially, and any mention I did of him, was in response to someone else linking his ideas to Kabbalah I think. Meaning Tifereth as will etc... Pretty fascinating stuff, I might need to check out Crowley now. But yeah I've explored it plenty, but from a Jungian frame among others, not in light of Crowley. It is like going on a vacation to a more liberal country. Suddenly there is a lot of stuff that is normal and allowed, that previously was forbidden. That can be both liberating and scary, and part of the reason why it took me a year to return after I joined this forum the first time.