wandelaar

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Posts posted by wandelaar

  2. Posted

    12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    Will take some time for me to read all the links...

     

    Results:

     

    Only the article Acute Physiological and Psychological Effects of Qigong Exercise in Older Practitioners is relevant to the subject of internal electrical chi. However as noted in the article itself:

     

    Quote

    The present study had some limitations. First, this is a
    one-group, pre- and postcomparison study. This study lacked
    control group of sham intervention to evaluate the placebo
    effect in this study. Second, the participants were older prac-
    titioners; therefore, future studies are suggested to elucidate
    the effects of qigong exercise across different age groups.
    Third, blood pressure data were not evaluated and thus the
    influence of blood pressure on the results was unknown.
    Fourth, substantial time has to be invested for learning and
    practicing these mind-body techniques. Fifth, to generalize
    these findings, further studies using larger sample sizes
    and/or different kinds of qigong are required. The present
    findings might be generalized only to older populations who
    are more health conscious with practicing specific type of
    qigong exercise, such as Chinese Bioenergy Qigong.

     

    The conclusion of the article is:

     

    Quote

    One session of qigong exercise increased meridian electrical
    conductance, reduced anxiety, and improved balance in both
    the autonomic nervous system and the body overall. In
    conclusion, these findings provide scientific evidence for
    the acute physiological and psychological effects of qigong
    exercise in older practitioners. According to the results of
    this study, Chinese Bioenergy Qigong may be considered
    as one of the complementary therapies accompanied with
    conventional medicine to treat the patients with autonomic
    dysfunction or anxiety. More researches in the future are
    encouraged to investigate into the possible effects of Chinese
    Bioenergy Qigong on improving various pathological func-
    tions in different population.

     

    So what do we learn about the possibility or impossibility of externalized chi phenomena? Nothing. I tend to agree with the idea that internal chi is just another way of describing phenomena that are known under other names in western medicine. That is as long as no extraordinary phenomena of externalized chi are shown to exist that defy explanation in terms of western science.

     

    The links to quantum mechanical findings in experiments with photons and electrons show how weird things become when you operate with very small particles of matter and light. Quantum entanglements and the like. So indeed one should be careful with definitely ruling things out as impossible. But do they supply a way to understand electric chi phenomena? Maybe or maybe not. A lot of dots need to be filled in to connect the quantum world to chi. And filling in those dots is exactly what solid scientific theory construction is all about. Asking your readers to fill in the dots for themselves won't do it.

     

    The article Breath-Hold Diving – The Physiology of Diving Deep and Returning proves that training will help one achieve things that are impossible for untrained persons. But this is no surprise. The crucial thing here is how far one can go in this way. And again nothing about electrical chi.

    • Like 1

  4. Posted

    26 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

    The generation of the energy being stored is the nerves and muscles, there is no unknown function, the only unknown is how this additional energy is moved and stored, which is something I have said many times over the years, via activating the function of the dantian which is achieved by altering the flow of one of the meridians. No one believed me then and many still don't, that is why they so ferociously fight to condemn what we do as being impossible. It's pretty obvious you are generating and storing energy (electrical energy) once the dantian function is active.

     

    That's what western medicine will have to consider once electrical chi phenomena are shown to exist, and in case the physical condition of the body (as known to western medicine) alone doesn't explain what's happening. Which could be a very interesting development. 

     

    Quote

    Not really, I can likely dig up some studies which measured the cells capacity to store energy and the bodies ability to conduct energy and how that differs in individuals and especially in monks who have been doing meditation from a young age.

     

    Is this variability enough to explain the generation of sparks emitted from the body?

     

    Quote

    I've never once in my life claimed to be able to do this.

     

    OK.

  5. Posted

    3 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

    Which know laws of physics are making what we do impossible. Serious question, please explain to me which laws of physics are being broken by being able to store up energy and emit it?

     

    Being able to store up energy isn't controversial. Also the human body is capable of generating electricity. And some animals can generate huge voltages. So the latter isn't biologically impossible. I'm not sure that the typical electrical chi phenomena should be called paranormal. Perhaps people can train themselves to use certain parts of their body to generate high voltages. You should ask a medical specialist about that. It would certainly be very interesting to measure from which parts of the body the voltages are coming from. And perhaps those parts of the body can then be shown to have developed an altered function as voltage generators. This would be revolutionary from a western medical perspective but not necessarily involve a need to change the currently known laws of physics.

     

    Quite another thing would be if you could emit energy to some far away place to achieve a physically measurable effect there (telekinesis). Maybe it would not so much constitute breaking a known law of physics as proving the need of adding some extra (not yet scientifically recognized) form of interaction or force. I should remark beforehand that nothing is ever accepted in science as the result one isolated experiment, but if the experiment is well thought out and the invited skeptic is unable to detect any fraud then it will likely generate interest in the parapsychology community and among the more adventurist skeptics.

  7. Posted · Edited by wandelaar

    If you don't add a critical stage magician to the team you will get a demonstration that will prove nothing at all. The internet abounds of that kind of stuff. No need to add more. The old guy with the beard is dead, so don't worry. But whatever stage magician you will choose, as soon as he starts detecting fraud he will make enemies among the true believers including the supposed "master" himself. People seldom like to see their idol dethroned.

    • Thanks 1

  9. Posted · Edited by wandelaar

    @Neirong

     

    Thank you! In case some readers might be wondering what I meant in a former post of mine by the logical fallacies and debating tricks occurring in this topic, your post above is a perfect example.

     

    The logical fallacies and debating tricks were notable on both sides.

  10. Posted

    Yes - most arguments about this subject from either side are well known. Asking people to invest many years of training to see for themselves is not going to help much as understandably only few will be prepared to do so. And again understandably not many people claiming special powers are prepared to demonstrate those powers under controlled conditions. So it looks like there is no way out of the quandary.

     

    But I haven't given up hope completely. What could change everything is when a way were found to objectively demonstrate paranormal chi phenomena in a simple foolproof way that anybody willing to do so could replicate with the appropriate equipment. It's scientifically possible to measure extremely small effect. So in the right experimental set up even a minute paranormal chi phenomenon should be objectively measurable. That's why I suggested moving the ball on top of Norton's dome as an example. In case such an apparatus were invented with which all or most people could see for themselves that paranormal chi phenomena are real than I have no doubt that over time the existence of chi (or something like it) would become common knowledge. But of course it could be that chi is somehow "unwilling" to be demonstrated in such a way, and than I see no other "solution" than to stay undecided or the agree to disagree.

    • Like 2

  11. Posted

    Yes - there are those who will never believe, no matter what happens or what arguments are brought forward. Furthermore there are also those who will continue to believe, no matter what happens or what arguments are brought forward. I've seen examples of both in this topic. Logical fallacies and debating tricks abound.

     

    One could easily forget that there are also those (few and far between) who are still undecided because they permit themselves to see the value and weaknesses of both extreme positions...

    • Like 2

  13. Posted

    2 hours ago, HumanElectric said:

    I can assure you, when you experience qi for the first time, as I did, mere suggestion would never cause one’s relaxed limbs to involuntarily contract, as is experienced when receiving faqi. 

     

    So I asked:
     

    Quote

    What do you mean by "mere suggestion"? Did you try hypnosis before so as to be able to compare the effects of the two procedures?

     

    And your answer was: no.

     

    So you are in no position to claim what you are trying to assure us of. But perhaps you made a study of hypnosis without undergoing it yourself, but than you would have known that involuntarily contraction of one’s relaxed limbs is perfectly possible as a result of hypnosis. Furthermore there are also lots of claims of positive medical results of hypnotic treatment.

     

    But instead of reevaluating your claim in light of this new information you simply ignore it, and change the subject.

    • Like 1

  14. Posted

    13 minutes ago, HumanElectric said:

    I can assure you, when you experience qi for the first time, as I did, mere suggestion would never cause one’s relaxed limbs to involuntarily contract, as is experienced when receiving faqi. 

     

    What do you mean by "mere suggestion"? Did you try hypnosis before so as to be able to compare the effects of the two procedures?

    • Like 2

  15. Posted

    Most important here is civilized interaction. If you stick with that much is possible. ;)

     

    I'm interested to hear what you have to say about the integration of spiritual and scientific perspectives.

  16. Posted

    On 12/5/2023 at 2:36 PM, Eduardo said:

    "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

     

    Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

     

    "There are less things in Heaven and Earth, Eduardo, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

     

    Wandelaar

     

    (Sorry couldn't resist the temptation... :P)

    • Like 1
    • Haha 2

  17. Posted · Edited by wandelaar

    @Pak_Satrio

     

    Another over the top reaction. One would think that after the ban for Partez the civility in discussion would quickly return, but not so. Those remaining in the race are now celebrating their victory by painting the non-believers as lazy, stupid, dogmatic, racist, etc. It's only slightly less pathetic than what Partez did.

     

    Yes the guy in the video talked about two groups of rats. But how many rats were there? That's why I asked. Showing just two rats doesn't prove anything. After that I visited this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_air_ionization_therapy So my current opinion is that it might work or it might not work, and that it's not clear yet. Besides large concentrations of ozone are considered unhealthy.

     

    After that I found this on YouTube. Not about the sort of thing the professor talked about, but also about negative ions so I might as well post it here as a warning for those who want to go a step further:

     

     

    That's why I personally prefer simple well known "practices" like taking a walk, healthy food, etc. 

     

    But I'm leaving the party. Please have ball!

  18. Posted

    21 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

    Nice documentary! Thanks for sharing. Can’t believe the big difference in the rat that was exposed to negative ions compared to the one that wasn’t!

     

    Yes - that looks spectacular. But how many rats were tested that way? If it were only two rats than nothing substantial has been proven. And that's the problem with many topics here. There are lots of non-controversial ways to improve your health and well-being. Regularly taking a walk, a good nights rest, healthy food, etc. Why focus on the seemingly miraculous? Even if the world was completely devoid of miracles, than it would still be a fascinatingly spectacular place. But in the daily hassle we tend to lose sight of it.

    • Like 2

  21. Posted

    @Pak_Satrio

     

    Nobody won this discussion. It was the usual back and forth you always see regarding this topic. But at least it was a civil back and forth until civility was thrown overboard and it quickly turned into a battle of egos. That's the stage we are in now. And that's what I was referring to when I wrote that I was sad to see this happening.

  24. Posted · Edited by wandelaar

    There's no need to make a show of faqi. To me ostensible cases of faqi are simply interesting phenomena deserving of investigation. As a young man I liked the idea of acquiring special powers, but in the end we're all fragile mortals however spiritually advanced we may be. The real challenge to me at least lies in the realization of our own relative insignificance. We're just straw dogs.

     

    Perhaps I should grow a long white beard... ;)

    • Like 3