MIchael80

3 hours ago, RiverSnake said:

What would you like to know? 

Hi!

Well maybe a short overview over different forms of this Meditation. 

What are the most powerful forms.

Maybe some links etc.

Thanks in advance! :-)

Michael 

Could you share some more ?

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Can you share some examples of schools that teach the "full method"?

Hi!

I will define full method first. Schools that have the methods to replenish considerably amounts of yuan jing/chi. (there are schools that think this is impossible and some that have weakened forms of this, meaning they can replenish some but it is extremely time consuming or has a high chance of producing problems etc.) because if you have the knowledge of these methods it shapes how one approaches the rest of the practice.

Three i know: the 2 schools that the russians represent (yuxian pai and wuliu pai.....interesting here is that there are branches of wuliu who do not have a full ming method; these 2 schools have extremly strong ming methods)...and a private (mountain) longmen lineage where i have trained in.

There are some other more private lineages in china that still have that (i have heard that Zhang Boduans lineage is still alive and has very powerful ming methods).

I would guess that Wang Lipings system has some of that (Nathan Brine will put out a series of books beginning in Feburary 2020 so we can see this system)

quianfengpai has some of that (the lineage from which the famous "taoist yoga" book comes...which is just a part of an manual of that school).

another guess would be that Li Shifu from 5 immortals temple knows some of that too.

best

On 12.11.2019 at 8:08 PM, dwai said:

Seeking some feedback on the following. Please feel free to post your thoughts/comments (please be concise and to the point if possible. If you write a 1000+ word essay, it makes my eyes glaze over and avoid reading it.  ) --

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Hi!

Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today).

Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys.

Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though.

There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing.

It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing.

You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them.

In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved).

hope that helps!

All the best!

Michael

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. 

 

Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. 

 

 

The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves.

 

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy.  Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about.  

 

What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed. You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. 

 

I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. 

 

My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. 

 

It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though 

I was initiated into  XYP in 2016.......never lost conncection with the FFS......but they changed as i requested to be trained differently than the common XYP road.

I have heard some have seemed to have lost the connection to the ffs but no nothing in more detail. But to me it makes sense that xians do not train all people forever....so when they are not ripe enough they may turn away from them after a certain time.

I wanted to learn real alchemy and XYP is not that.....it works basically like Effie says.....but that is not real alchemy. (real alchemy is very rare!) And i am not saying that XYP is bad or anything like that...but not real alchemy. I am hestitant to talk about real alchemy here though i have from time to time because i do not want to be put into the same corner as the russians (who have real alchemy schools)....though i try not to be so boasty as them. (i have no connection to them).

But they were right in regards to neidan with full alchemical principle.....and since no book today shows this full principle it is hard to discuss this subject. Also no teacher i am aware of teaches this full alchemical method beside a hidden longmen lineage, the 2 schools which the russians have a branch of and maybe a teacher in Belgium.

There is in my understanding no shen alone approach.......one could say that systems like Transcendental Meditation is but they try to reach samadhi which is all encompassing......shen only would mean you just sit and do nothing do reach deeper states of mediation. One could say that vajrayana is shen mostly in the beginning with its lots of visualizations...but they also use body techniques....and later of course tummo (inner fire, which works with chi and jing...here they call the jing drops).

Maybe some Zen schools are mostly what could be called shen ...but they also want to reach samadhi like states (which is beyond shen)......but they do not look at the body .....so this could be what you mean.

Basic buddhist meditations could be described as shen (vipassana) only........but even there samadhi is goal.

What is described here as jing, qi, shen is post heaven approach in chinese systems (in indian system you start with chi, the body is often incoorperated but no work with the jing directly)...aka nei gong.

Body work alone is not jing.....it has a healthy effect on body and the jing....but it is not jing work. For this we need the nei gong work that Dammo describes so beautifully.

In alchemy the body is prepared but jing, qi, shen in alchemy partains to the yuan forms of these energies which are pre-heaven (before creation) so alchemy it is not about body, chi, mind, as one works with energies which are already beyond the mind but are ascociated with the body.

best

9 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Not exactly. What you described as Jing - Qi - Shen is one of the many forms of doing it, but there are other forms and this idea of "forget everything and become enlightened" is mostly a perversion of old teachings.

 

The idea is either to conform the Yang through the Yin or the Yin through the Yang.

 

By working from "bellow to above" you'll be able to make it so your body changes your mind and gets you closer to the Dao.

 

By working from "above to bellow" you'll make it so your mind changes your body and gets you closer to the Dao as well.

 

The ideal training, in my view at least, is to do BOTH things at the same time. Doing only one of them has great chances of making you spend years of training only to end up in poor health and maybe even insanity, or simply entering a state of, indeed, delusion.

 

In my personal practice I'm combining both perspectives and that has been giving wonderful results. What I need to change in my mind I change through the body, and what I need to change in my body I change through the mind.

 

This means, for instance, that if I want to become thiner, then I will look into what in my mind makes me fat. Seeing that, I will look to what I can do in my body in order to change my mind. If I still feel blockages in doing so, then I will look into my mind to look for the reason for that as well.

 

In the end I usually reach a point in which merely seeing something inside my mind or doing very few moves with my body (or even TCM and similar things) is already enough to grant me transformation in both body and mind. Balance is the key.

 

As for speed of transformation, I've managed to lose around 30kg ( around 70 pounds) in the last 2 years, while also increasing my lean mass and without losing strenght (even increasing it to a certain degree). I've also been able to estabilize my mood variations and start a family. Not to mention a series other things.

 

My energetic workings are being slowly cleaned and explained by a guide spirit and I'm becoming able to do a little bit of neidan every day, even though not following a especific routine - the spirit comes, teaches me about what I'm doing wrong, and then how to solve that.

I've gained a few skills in that, and I believe I'll be able to start a conscious neidan practice (based on looking for the destination and adapting myself in order to reach it instead of following certain formulas) very soon.

Theoretically a physical/corporeal teacher should give you this kind of treatment, teaching you not techniques but what you need in the moment to reach a certain step in order to get to the point where you can do the techniques by yourself while knowing what you're doing - only then teaching you the techniques.*

 

*If that's even needed

Really like that!

.......that is a high level teaching!

16 hours ago, waterdrop said:

What is the difference between jing and qi ?

im asking cause im confused a bit about it  -  i used to hear that jing is something you have from birth and you should try to preserve it and when you get old you are slowly loosing jing 

yet recently i asked here how to not get wet dreams (if i dont want to have sex or masturbate)  and got an advice to turn jing to qi (if someone wants to add an explanation how i do that - can be nice)   ....   so by what i heared in the past it seems like a bad idea to turn jing into qi ... and if anything it should be the other way around ...

would love to hear whatever info people can add on the subject of jing vs qi

Hi!

Jing is what makes the body........chi is what moves it.

Like a candle......jing is the wax....and chi is the flame.

There are also pre-heaven forms of jing and chi (which are only worked with in alchemy) .......and post-heaven forms (which are worked with in qi gong, nei-gong, all energy based work etc.).

Not ejaculating at all is going against the functions of the body and is harmful to the spirit in the longer run.

If you have problems with sex (by either wanting to masturbate/ejaculate constantly  ..or totally feeling repelled by it) you should release the blockages that cause such unbalanced behaviour.

Changing jing to chi...is actually a term from alchemy...but here it is used in the post heaven realm. There are ways to bring the jing energy back to the kidneys....but as i said ...better to heal the unbalanced aspects of our sexuality.

best

10 hours ago, Bruce Qi said:

who are these Russians ?

 

They were active here on the forum from roughly 2012 to 2017.

They have a school in Russia with several branches there and also Australia.

they teach the only 2 Schools with full alchemical principle outside of china.....which are yuxian pai and a branch of wuliu pai.

One cannot learn Wuliu if not a russian and living near their school....but one can be taught yuxian pai through skype and retreats in russia.

Some of them were more active others less. One of them was very active here ..with the name of opendao (a teacher in the yuxian school).

Because they had the knowledge of schools with full alchemical principle they were not shy to "expose" the schools and thoughts wich do not have this knowledge (which is basically every modern school and book about neidan on the market). They just labeled their teaching neidan and stated that all the others are not real neidan. Which from a certain point of view is right but misses the point (see my other posts for this).  As you can guess this resulted in lots of heated discussions and they were not liked much here.

They have stopped posting here a while ago but you can find these threads through the search function (just type in opendao for ex.).

You can contact them through: forum.daode.ru    it is a russian speaking forum with an english section.

All the best

On 12.8.2019 at 6:03 PM, Wuschel said:

 

may i ask why?

sure.

It is taught that silent sitting meditation is beneficial if done for 10-15 minutes for its calming effect etc. but that calming can be reached also with neidan (moving techniques) ...longer is harmful because it is too yin.....but in alchemy you want to increase the yang (yuan jing, yuan chi)....so it is counterproductive.

Once you have the elixir ...the silent sitting is not harmful anymore and it is used in higher stages for further refinement. But in one lineage it was not used at all.

Keep in mind what i said in my other posts about neidan with full alchemical principle and the much more well known neidan where this principle is not fully used and other things have interwoven ...bringing different results (not lesser, just different).

On 10.8.2019 at 9:27 PM, Rara said:

 

Sure, I understand this, but I have been taught the first level which is seated meditation. The rest comes after...

 

 

Really? Why is it known as the "energy centre" then? I'm pretty sure a dantian is commonly known as a storage space for life force.

We are not in a discussion here Rara.

You asked a question and i gave the answer ...from my point of view....nothing more.

Yes, every practice needs the juice of compassion to "wet" it......

If we are triggered by other Persons, statements, events etc. it is a good idea to sit unconditionally with the uncomfortable emotion until it moves on and is digested.

If you have a teacher (wudang) that resonates with you then follow that path.

they way i was taught was that meditation was not allowed at all or only in very high levels (after the elixir has been created).

In the schools i know there is no dantian like in the medical field (the field in the lower abdomen...one usually knows from qi gong etc.). but it itself is a pre-heaven manifestation with a different place and different function and cannot be used like the well known form.

All the best!

15 hours ago, Shubin said:

Some schools believe that Yuan Jing hides in a location inside of the body. Regular people cannot control Yuan Jing at all.

Maybe there are some schools who do think this.....but from my expierence that does not make sense. the pre-heaven energies storehouses are ascociated with the certain body parts but are not of the body because they are pre-heaven (before creation).

Alchemy is just technique.....and everyone can use them if they know them. And so the pre-heaven jing and chi can be used if you know how. (you do not to be special at all....or developed or whatever.....).

Best

On 3.8.2019 at 4:41 PM, KuroShiro said:

 

Are you saying that all the books about Neidan are watered down because the authors, such as Masters Wang Liping and Damo Mitchell, don't know the real thing?

What about the Daoist Classics?

Do you know anyone that teaches the full alchemical method?

 

thanks.

It is not about "knowing the real thing"......it is more that what we call neidan today is a hybrid of alchemy and other stuff and so the alchemical principle is mostly not fully present. I think both teachers are very good in what they teach.

The dao classics are intepreted according to  each schools agenda. From my backround lao tzi was using the full alchemical method but as i said, every school has the interpretation that fits its understanding. (and the same goes for schoolars).

Yes, my ex-teacher ...but is not public. The ones that do this public are the (here) much hated russians.....they are boasty but the two schools they teach have the full alchemical system (at least that is what my teacher said).

best

On 2.8.2019 at 5:04 PM, Rara said:

 

Thanks. In fact, it's something I expect to learn more of first hand, than reading books.

 

So basically, my understanding wasn't quite correct, no? I'm aware that the qi is stored in the LDT, and builds with meditation/neidan. What is happening with the jing or all the crazy stuff that settles over time during the meditation?

In those modern version which are not fully alchemical but use parts of alchemy there is meditation.

In Alchemy systems with the full alchemial method the neidan is a moving form or sitting but with hands moving.

No chi is stored in the ldt.

If you want to learn these modern forms Wang Liping (or one of his teachers ) and Damo Mitchell are great for that. Or qianfengpai should also be great.

best

On 3.8.2019 at 3:35 PM, Shubin said:

It seems that in Neidan,  Jing to Qi，is 精 to 炁 （not 气）.

Some schools of Neidan call Jing as Yuan Jing (元精),  why they do not call it "sexual energy" (性精）？

 

 

 

 

because in alchemy you do not work with sexual energy........jing is that which makes up the whole body not just sexual energy.

And alchemy works with pre-heaven forms of energy.....that are not of the body at all

18 hours ago, Rara said:

I have often seen it said that we transform Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen. I want to focus on the first part in this thread.

 

I used to use my terms loosely, so for example, if I was feeling eratic or anxious, I would say my "qi is all over the place"

 

I am now starting to think that the correct term is "jing". Although I've seen it described as "sexual energy", surely it relates to any form of energy that can have great detrimental effect if not controlled? i.e Anything from compulsive masturbation/sex to panic attacks.

 

When we meditate, we foucus on the lower dan tien to send the jing there, and store/convert it into qi. Am I right in this first part of the theory?

 

Thanks all

Jing is the energy that makes up the body, all its liquids etc. (the sexual fluids are only one part of it)

Qi is the energy that moves it.

the terms you use are alchemical....which means that in alchemy one works only with the pre-heaven chi and jing (which repairs the post-heaven jing and chi). But since not many teach the full alchemical method and all the books that are on the market about neidan are the modern nothern method (which is watered down) you should read some of these.

first you need to "lay the foundations" (which means replenishing the yuan stuff in alchemy.....though in modern times it often means just using a little qi gong to balance the body).

Look into "daoist internal mastery" from Wang Liping

"white moon on the mountain peak" from Damo Mitchell

"neidan for everyone" forgot the author

all of these books teach only watered down forms of alchemy but better than nothing

best

On 13.6.2019 at 2:28 PM, Sebastian said:

Hey Dao Bums -

 

One of my friends currently studying in Taiwan at NTU is currently 1/3rd through translating Professor Ge Guolong's (戈國龍) 2010 book, "Ten Discourses on Daoist Alchemy". It's a an enlightening commentary on alchemy texts written by a professor of religion at the China Academy of Social Sciences in Beijing. 

 

It's a major undertaking for my friend because the book is over 140,000 Chinese characters long. He has the backing of Red Pine, who most people on DaoBums will know, being the author of the best selling translation of the Tao Te Ching in English. Because this would take months of dedicated work, most likely in seclusion, he recently set up a Gofundme page in case anybody was interested in backing the project, and enjoying early access perks, things like that.

 

Personally, I'm very excited about it because the book is a bridge between philosophy and practice. From the samples I was shown, I found Professor Guolong's writing to be super clear, and a breath of fresh air compared to other esoteric alchemy manuals like "Taoist Yoga" for example. Instead of making you feel more confused, the text reads like an elucidation and makes alchemy directly understandable and accessible to the modern Chinese and now Western mind.

 

I can also highly recommend my friend as an outstanding translator (having lived in China for a decade), and a wonderful spiritual cultivator. I can also vouch for the value of these texts for your own cultivation. Here is an outline of the chapters for example, but you will find more information on his official page. 

 

Chapter outline

 

1.      Unsurpassed Destiny
2.      Illuminating the Mind to See Its True Nature 
3.      The Portal of the Mysterious Pass 
4.      Advancing the Fire and Gathering the Medicine 
5.      Empty, Nonexistent Qi 
6.      Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming 
7.      Primordial Jing and Primordial Shen 
8.      Two Heavens and Earths 
9.      Going Back to the Root, Returning to the Source
10.    Universe and Individual, Interconnected 

 

As was posted in the Daoist sub-section, we really need more translators of Chinese texts like this. Think about how many of Master Nan Huai Chin's books still haven't been translated in English for example, and how valuable each and everyone is to our community at Dao Bums. The truth is there are no translators working on them. And the reason is that you need a very high level of Chinese and you also to be an advanced practitioner of these arts.  The market is so small that it's not even worth the time and effort from a financial standpoint for the people who meet this criteria. So when someone is motivated to take months out of his life to complete a project like this,  just so we all benefit, I think we should encourage it, at least as Dao Bums. Thumbs up from me.
 

Hi!

When will this book be out?

best

Michael

On 1.6.2019 at 10:32 PM, Miroku said:

 

Steer away from the Geshe he is a cultist (worships a gylpo (demon) Shugden)) and broke his samayas. Not a good person to associate with on any level.

shugden was allowed to be whorshipped til the 70's when the Dalai Lama forbide that (a lot still do). I do not do that and i do not care.

I do not care if he broke his vows as i think that is bs all together and has nothing to do with spirituality but with cultural package.

His books give great descriptions of the vajrayana techniques and the path that is what i am interested in.....all power to those who break the secrecy of the systems (in any tradition).

best

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

There's a book that seems written for you about tantra from preliminaries to meditation, through sacred sex to clear light, but I can't remember the title. It was made available for free by the author. 

 

I'll post the title when I can remember it, but maybe someone else know what I'm talking about. 

 

It is called "Great Bliss: Tantric Sex and the path to inner awakening" by John T. Housemann

Seems to be the only book which describes the karmamudra stuff....though that is the highest one so nothing for beginners. the book is quite good as it strips tantra of some layers of the almost religous "doings" that has accumulated over the centuries. It starts with prelimaneries and goes on to very high stuff (including self initiation with the deity).......

I would also read the books from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.....very practical and eveything in except the karmamudra stuff. (but has some infos about visualized deity partners).

best

15 hours ago, dwai said:

I didn't make a qualitative comparison. I only pointed out that in the Wisdom traditions that follow pure Jnana yoga path, don't strive for this "rainbow body". Their objective is the cessation of suffering. Though it might be, that there are sub-sects within these traditions who do focus on this "rainbow body" concept. Seems that the Buddha didn't care for that either. His objective too was the cessation of suffering.

 

That's not to say that the Siddhas and adepts of the traditions that focus on the alchemical side of things aren't incredible. Of course they are! But pure jnana way seems to not care much for the rainbow body/light body etc. 

 

P.S. Decided to add this (reader please note, messenger, message, et al) --

 

In a conversation with a very high level adept,  I  was told (I'm inexactly quoting) -- 

 

"In the dharma path, typically you will be offered a choice at a certain stage. You could choose to become a Brahma or an immortal (as in Rainbow body, etc) or a mahasiddha, and take over the creation of universes etc. However, you WILL HAVE TO come back to complete the cycle of liberation at some point (which could be millions or billions of human years), to become truly liberated. The adept has to come back to the karmabhoomi (the land of action) to ultimately become free of karma."

 

Hi Dwai!

thanks for your clarification!

However as i pointed out....to me that is not true (and what i heard of very high level teachers).....sure you can cange the body through alchemical techniques.....but in most tradtions who speak of this phenomena who do not use alchemical stuff they frame the disolution of the physical body as the full karma disolution (even the karmic stains in the elements of the body are purified with changes the elements back to their original state...which later brings the disolution of the body like ramalinga).

Buddha taught different vehicles and highest yoga tantra was his highest.

As far as i know this phenomena has happened in almost all traditions....though in some more often than in others. David Buckland (and i also think Lorne Hoff) is of the impression that this is a natural process (after awakening) if the embodyment is allowed (which most often is not as this brings all the suppressed traumas to the surface) but maybe cannot complete because naturally it would take a lot of time (because of the density of the body) to complete. (so we would have to get older than we currently do to let that happen).

so your quote does not make sense to me.....because if the body disolves that is a deeper karmic purification that just letting it die. (it only makes sense if we come to the light body through techniques, but then we are not awake even though we have the light body).

best

On 17.4.2019 at 9:34 PM, dwai said:

The reason I brought it up is because it really does vary. For instance, there is a group of people who aim for alchemical enlightenment - aka immortality (rainbow body, etc).

That is a different ideal from enlightenment that is the goal of wisdom traditions such as Advaita Vedanta or Buddhism.

 

 

 

Hi dwai!

I do not aggree with that statement.

Highest yoga tantra and dzogchen ...both budhist traditions mention the rainbow body and see it as the highest expression of enlightenment. Even in the yoga sutras i think there is a line like "perfection of the body comes last".....there is also this light body phenomena in sufi sects.....a lot of traditions see the transformation of the body as the hightest form of enlightenment as it is the deepest form of embodying the absolute. Some modern teachers like David Buckland or Lorne Hoff speak also in that direction and say that the transfomration of the body happens naturally if allowed but takes a long time.

best

2 hours ago, AstralProjectee said:

All this seems out of my league. I think I am going to cryonically vitrify myself and be reanimated in the space age when doing alchemy is common place then I can re-engineer my body and mind then live a very long time and attain spiritual immortality.

Hi!

From my point of view....all this stuff comes to one when the inner intent is right. I have met a neidan master who is earth immortal (meaning physical immortality). i also met an alchemist who made the philosophers stone and gave me a small piece of it (taking it every day will keep one young eternally). Yeah dzogchen does have more rainbow bodies than most other traditions but!!! most achive only the small rainbow body, meaning they die after a normal human life and then the dead body just shrinks.

It is a little like Michael Sternbach said....but there is no need to follow these obscure texts....one can get these achievements through different ways...inner intent and then follow the guidance that comes from within and without will do it.

there are neidan schools that have a strong alchemical principle that teach....the here on the daobums so hated "russians" are part of 2 chinese schools who teach these stuff (yes they are very boasty but the schools are very legit). If you look into another thread about the "christ oil" you could do that and your inner guidance will be very strong....so you can find the secrets yourself over time.

best

On 17.4.2019 at 11:21 AM, lifeforce said:

 

Hi EFS White.

 

Those physical sensations might be due to the process, you really can't tell. Insights may come to you well after the process has ended. They happen to me regularly now. It might be that there is more work to be done to clear out any junk in your system. 

Purging fluoride from your system will be needed. I have been fluoride free for 10+ years so maybe the process needed less time to work. Iodine in the form of sea kelp supplements will de-flouridate your system, as will purified drinking water. Keep sugar to a minimum. No fizzy carbonated drinks or starchy carb foods. Keep at it. There are many people who have achieved great results from the process. Good luck.

HI lifeforce!

Really enjoy reading your experriences with that process! As you write it seems to destroy your previous beliefsystems...which is hard but also very freeing. As i have not watched the clips: what is the goal of this process? How long will it take to come to its goal? You wrote about the physical body going through alchemical change...will this result in extreme longevity, rainbow body etc.?

thanks for taking time to answer my questions!!

All the best on your way :-)

Michael

32 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

Immortality in my perception is ageless body that can live on limitlessly.

 

You could still be killed or die in catastrophe.

 

Immortality after death is fraud, because soul of every being transists through life and death without any practice. This is worst case of selling air.

 

Immortality after death means that you die consciously and stay conscious during death and thereby eleminating the need for reincarnation.

Physcial immortality is a very high state....and can mean just staying young or can even mean unkillable (adamantine body)...for that the elements have to bereversed into their original state...not many achieve that. Pal Pandian from a real Tamil Siddha lineage speaks about some of this in his book.....

Interesting theme.....only mediation will not do it...

Aurobindo has some interesting insights into that topic but not the means to really complete that work.

best!

5 hours ago, Purple Clouds said:

There seems to be a woefully small amount of available resources in comparison to Neidan. Feel free to share any books, articles, papers, etc. on the subject; whether that be herbal medicines, bodily exercises, or related rituals.

Some simple waidan is in Jerry A. Johnsons neigong book.

there are not much authentic sources for waidan (which is just external alchemy) and those who have the kowledge keep it very secret...but that stuff is real even up to the philosophers stone (the external elixier)...there are some neidan schools that also do waidan but keep it very secret.

best

27 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Agreed

 

A hot topic and an important one is the clear understanding that unfolding does not cease in Awakening.

 

The emerging refocus has been Awaken and expand in Presence/Self.

 

I don’t quite agree with:

”there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness.”

 

It is in Self - Abiding Awakened Presence that further unfolding occurs.

 

Also a note: Unity Consciousness can and often does preceed Awakening and can appear to be Awakening when it is far less. It is also possible to incrementally achieve it whereas it is quite rare in Awakening. Certainly some incremental happenings are at work in both but rarely does Awakening not at some point feel like it was a dramatic shift vs Unity is fairly frequently not a radical shift in one moment to the next.

 

I am familiar with the interviews you mentioned.

 

Many of the new workshops out there work toward Awakening directly and speak to continued work afterward in coming to abide in the often disorienting aftermath and then also go on to offer support in further settling and guidance in what may be in store.

 

Without Awakening It is possible to consider one’s achievements to be considerably higher than believed.

 

This is abundantly clear in those taken in by siddhis. While having achieved much - much is barred from them.

 

It is also possible to have considerable achievement without Awakening. It is a tremendous help to have previous practice and an excellent basic foundation prior to Awakening.

 

The refocus on Awakening is a real byproduct of so many now Awakening. It has changed teachings around the globe in many ways.

 

High level schools that have been imbedded in ancient traditions are often unequiped for a student who goes off to a retreat and comes back awoken - because many groups do not have Awakened teachers but rather those “steeped in the teachings” which may or may not be helpful if no one is actually awake.

 

Many very fine lineage teachers are not Awake and teach from good sense and innate and careful translation - but they often have little to nothing to offer a newly Awakened student - in fact they can be completely off in their directions and disquieting to the abidance.

 

The emergence of these interviews and a collective of Awakened teachers of various traditions that can be looked up and contacted is basically a new and incredible phenomenon!

 

When I was young the thought of even meeting such a person was a pretty incredible distant hope.

 

You can now look one up and call them or arrange a meeting in person or via Skype/ Zoom etc.

 

This idea can make some people’s stomachs turn - but it is true - many are true Awakened teachers and they are accessible until they are not so accessible.

 

The fact also remains - many seekers are not really seekers - they are terrified of Awakening -?loss of self/personhood. It is common to want Awakening through personhood - throwing only “the trash” out. Personhood/identification never considers its best positions trash and so the grasp is held in epoxy.

 

Hi!

mmmhhhh we have to be careful with words here......and i do not want a discussion.

that the physical and energetic bodies go through further unfoldment there is no doubt about that.....

however what i quoted does speak about the further unfolding of consciousness/awareness itself....quote: 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness.  It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness.

you call that Self awake presence.....to me that sounds like that.....however there is unfolding beyond this awake presence...it actually feels like loosing it or falling out of it......to some that is deeply shocking.....but as it stabalizes a new perspective comes online and it is seen that even pure awareness is still a veil over true reality.  David joked about a guy who thought he was finished for the 3 times now  :-)

Ahh you have seen Davids batgap interviews! great! he is not the greatest speaker but the only one who (as far as i know) speaks from what is called pure divinity which is sometimes called "source of the source" because from there it is seen that it is the source of the Self aware presence.

To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening.

With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not.

From a lineage perspective to me an authentic Tamil siddha lineage (through Pal Pandian) is the most complete system/teaching i am aware of.

best