MIchael80

Bethupton.com

She also has a YouTube channel where she speaks very openly about all stages of practice. 

17 minutes ago, Cobie said:

There's only one reality. All systems refer to this same reality.

 

Chakras and dantien refer to the same things.

 

 

 

 

 

The one truth gives rise to the 10 000 things.

Freeform who was highly refered here repeatedly stressed that this "everything is the same" notion is ignorance.

Your subtle bodies have a lot of different layers...chakras, energy pathways at different densities, energy nodes,  subtle organs.... they all have DIFFERENT functions. 

A heart does something different than a liver.  A car is not a bycicle just because there are wheels on both of them. 

If you have problems with your heart you go to a doctor who is specialized on heart health and not to one who is specialized on eye health.

Chakras are in the spine ... fields in the regions of the inner organs.... both have very different functions....what they do, with what substances they work...etc.

58 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

If there is one reality, it may be that different cultures have different namings

 

 

I deal with intelligent energy fields - of which there are a variety

 

In the current forming of this solar system, relationship with the intelligences is more important than namings

 

 

This is just empty talk.

There are different intelligences as you say... whatever name they have. 

Again,  a liver is not a heart....however you would describe that thing we call heart and liver. 

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

 

Not at all. The three dantian model easily fits as a subset of the 7 primary chakras

 

I make direct observations of the subtle anatomy of humans with appropriate experiments.  

 

If you observe subtle anatomy then you know chakras are not elixir fields. 

To say they are the same is like saying the spine is the same as my lungs or my liver is the same as my heart.

On 18.9.2025 at 7:39 AM, Gerard said:

Learn this stuff like the multiplication table in primary school.

 

2x1 = 2

2x2 = 4

2x3 = 6

etc.

 

Baby soul = tribal

Infant Soul = puritan, extremist 

Young Soul = celebrities, billionaires, politicians, CEOs, etc, basically the rich & powerful

Mature Soul = healers, spiritual teachers enter this category as they still have a strong sense of ego and some still display "young soul" tendencies

Old Soul = fully aware of the big picture, live a lone existence in most instances working on their inner 'selves'

 

Source:

https://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_ages.html

 

Feel free to add or discuss anything you like.:)

Very interesting share! Thanks! 🙏🙏

It can definitly deepen self-understanding though i do not resonate with the several country describtions.

21 hours ago, yugenphoenix said:

@MIchael80 
Meant “Pre-Heaven” =“Pre-birth” 

I use those words interchangeably. 
 

Why do you consider the Bindus “post heaven”? 

But for sure I agree the Dan and Shengtai are both eternal and flawless like our “Buddha Nature”

Only something Infinite can be the key to u lock Infinity.

 

And yes everything everywhere exists simultaneously 🙂 But from your perspective what makes “how they are accessed and worked on differently”? 
 

Enjoying the discussion 🙏

Ohh you dont know what preheaven is?

The bindus are a form of jing. Post heaven jing....just like the prana / chi of heaven and earth....the different types in the body etc. 

Well working with post heaven is not so hard as every energy technique does it....but working with the pre-heaven is the secret of neidan. 

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI The pre-heaven(prenatal) jing requires to interact with the post heaven(postnatal) jings in order to produce neidan. Assuming that the embryo was considered as neidan as described here. 

By the TCM definition, the preheaven material came from the parents, such as embryo. The development stages of the embryo requires the post heaven materials, such as food and oxygen, for nourishment. The parents eat the food and breathe the air to feed the embryo/fetus through the umbilical cord.
 

Note: In alchemy, actually neidan was meant something else. 

No. Neidan works with pre-heaven. Of course the pre-heaven affects the post heaven but the inner elixir (= nei dan) is made only from preheaven material. 

You can make inner elixirs from post heaven material but these are side elixirs. 

TCM and ancient alchemy traditions definitions of several things are different. 

42 minutes ago, yugenphoenix said:

 @MIchael80 Not pre-birth? 
 

I was hesitant to title this post anything lol 😝 but the results and the progress I feel I am making can’t be called anything but Neidan but I don’t want to split hairs over words that are meaningless I will just call it something else 🙂

No, not pre-birth.

It is preheaven...compared to post heaven. 

Preheaven is original jing, qi and shen (called yuanjing, qi and shen).

Postheaven ist normal jing,qi and shen (and the bindus are postheaven).

These levels exist simultaneasly. But how they are accessed and worked with is different. 

The dan (= elixir) as well as the embryo is made of preheaven substances or it could not be eternal as the postheaven cannot be eternal by its very nature.

😊

Hi! 

Neidan works only with pre-heaven energies not with post heaven energies or substances. 

The embryo is made of preheaven material.

So while you describe alchemy....that is not neidan. 

Best whishes 

Michael 

1 hour ago, Stream said:

Good day to all the seniors here , now this is my first post after my introduction and it's about a topic that I find in lot of Manhua , manhwa that I like to read .

 

Alchemy, not the internal Alchemy that I have been reading about in the forum but medicinal Alchemy, where using herbs to make miracle medicine is real , honestly in any manhua that I have read the concept of Alchemy is my favourite as it deal with healing and growth .

 

So is it possible that there are medicine pills that can help in cleansing the body of impurities?? .

 

Ofc if this topic is not something openly talked about then forgive me for my ignorance and if it's allowed plz impart some knowledge to me .

Hi! 

Yes it is real...even up to the philosophers stone. But it is also secret. 

Simple alchemy is quite common and already powerful,  look into spagyrics for example. 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Hey Michael,

Do you mean Yin Debt and local spirit king?

Yin Debt is quite simple, maybe it can be found online somewhere?

It's just lighting candle and incense, saying different mantras and prayers, offering fruits, then a burning ceremony of symbolic money (paper ingots in a bag or an incense mountain), then end with mantras again.

Local spirit king is included in 8 great mantras to be said daily in Daoism (da ba shen zhou).

In Hindu rituals it's done at the end of a ritual by drawing a simple yantra to the right using sandalwood powder, placing a copper plate on it, then offering some of the naivedyam (food offering) that was used during the main ritual worship, then covering it with water and milk, say a mantra to confer to spirits and send them away, then throw remains in the SW outside your house, then come back and wash all.

I can't really share any full detailed ritual here (it's too long), but if you're interested I can ofc point to some of the schools/teachers/courses where these are included

One link for example to the 8 great mantras in Daoism is here https://fiveimmortals.com/the-eight-great-incantation/

At 01:07:17 the girl draws the yantra to the right of the devata, place 3 food offerings, give a drop of milk and water, then clap and snap your fingers while you say a mantra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNvfcF0DZ-s 

Thank you for your time! 🙏🙏😊

On 31.8.2025 at 11:53 AM, Nuralshamal said:

Update:
Just messaged with a friend regarding black magic and evil spirits.

I wrote a small bullet point list for him, of all that I've found to be causes of these disturbances, and all I've found to resolve them over the past 10 years.

Thought I would share it here for everyone's benefit:

Causes
1) Black Magic
This is much less widespread than we would think, and most often when people blame black magic for their misery in the western world, it's not true.

However! Black magic is HUGE in Africa, the Middle East and Asia as well. So if you have any family members there, or if you visit these places, it's good to be aware that this possibility is there. Also if you're originally from there, or if many of your social circle are from there, you can also be aware.
 

2) Karmic Debt to souls currently not incarnated or spiritual debt, Daoist ‘yin debt’
I came into contact with the daoist occult idea of yin debt, or karma owed to spirits from previous lifetimes.

No matter the protection, these cannot be stopped until your debt is paid. It can be done through rituals. After I did 3 of these, it stopped.
 

3) Kshetra Palaka, Tu Di, local spirit kings
In both Hinduism, Daoism and lots of occult systems, each local area is governed by a spirit king. If you do any kind of spiritual practice and work with spiritual energies, and this spirit king doesn’t like you, it can create problems. Eg if you live in a Christian nation, but worship or practice with different energies.
 

There are again certain mantras, rituals and offerings used in Daoism and Hinduism to befriend the local spirit king.

When this is done, no black magic or evil spirits can touch you in that particular local area.

Just be aware whenever you go to a new area, his protection cannot follow, and you’ll have to befriend the new local spirit king.
 

4) Conceal your blessings, jealousy and evil eye
Whenever something good happens to you, don’t let anyone know. If you trigger a feeling of lack in others, even your loved ones, involuntarily they will create a negative energy that can harm you.
 

5) Spirits following you home
Restless spirits that don’t want to move on linger in areas of their former life addictions. Eg clubs, brothels, casinos, all the addictions of dancing, eating, gambling, sex etc. If you frequent these places, you can invite them in.
 

6) Destroying own protection
Intake of alcohol, drugs and cigarettes will weaken your normal spiritual protection and allow them to attack you. Also any kind of sinful action like hate, anger, violence, illicit sex etc

7) Enmity with others
If you are not a good person, others will naturally harbor negative thougts and feelings towards you. Thoughts and feelings are also energy. So depending on the intensity, as well as the overall power of that person's energy, this can also harm you. The solution is to work it out, forgive it each and solve the problem

Resolutions
1) Sufism (the spiritual component of Islam, some say predating Islam,  those say it was the original way of the prophets, the 3 wise men, ancient Egypt, Babylon and so on)

1.1 Firstly you purify your energy daily for 7 days (this is done using salawaat connecting to the prophet and the full bismillah)

1.2 then you purify your room daily with blessed water (this is done using ayatul kursi or verse of the throne)

1.3 then you make a spiritual circle of protection around your house (this is done using ayatul kursi and "4 qul" or last 4 verses of the Qur'an, all starting with "qul" which means "say").

1.4 then you maintain all of these daily, and use dhikr to strengthen it (dhikr is reciting the names of Almighty God, al asma ul hosna, there are specific names for protection)

1.5 if purification, protection and increasing your spiritual power is not enough, you "strike back" with 2 verses (ayats) describing how Moses defeated the magicians of pharaoh, it's from surah (chapter) Ta-Ha, verse (ayat) 68-69
 

2) Hindu Sri Vidya
In this system of Goddess worship you open your chakras one by one through rituals. There’s a God or Goddess in each chakra. Varahi in the third eye chakra was used in ancient times for spiritual warfare, she's the protector of sri vidya upasakas or worshippers. After I did a 41 day ritual to her (puja, tarpanam and havan, prayer ritual, water ritual and fire ritual, alongside daily mantra recitation) all stopped. 
 

3) The proper rituals for Kshetra Palaka, Tudi, Local Spirit Kings as well as Yin Debt

4) Get initiation into a true spiritual lineage, this will naturally protect you
 

Conclusion
All of the above are the past 10 years of blood, sweat and tears, no practitioners could save me, only after tremendous strain and suffering did I discover the above facts.

Hi! 

Would you share the rituals for number 2 and 3 please?

Thank you! 🙏🙏

9 hours ago, Turnip said:

You’re right, sorry. The claim just seemed odd as Vortexhealing as far as I know has no Taoist or Chinese origins. Vortexhealing is definitely intriguing, if it is what it claims to be, I would totally want to practice it. It just scares me a bit that’s all. I’m sorry for the rudeness though, my bad

Hey, thanks for your apologies! That shows greatness! 🙏😊

The yuan chi refillment is not exclusive to China. Tamil siddha tradition (south india) has it too...there are even non public buddhist lineages that have it.

Vortexhealing started in India over 5000 years ago.

I have worked with several high level healers across the globe but Vortexhealing stands out as a healing and awakening path.

The prenatal and constitutional energies refillment starts in the higher classes (called "Jewel" and especially in "Merlins grace"). You can download a class describtions PDF from from their website.

Go on YouTube and check out a few Interviews with Ric Weinman the lineage holder to get more clarity for yourself if this could be a path for you or not. 

All the best on your way! 

On 11.4.2025 at 4:48 PM, Turnip said:

How do you know that preheaven jing is replenished in high level Vortexhealing classes? Is this just a hunch of yours or does Vortexhealing specifically speak of replenishing preheaven jing? 

You could be more friendly.. here on a public forum.

They specifically speak of it. 

On 18.3.2025 at 3:33 PM, johndoe2012 said:

Maybe we should have another thread for higher levels of Flying Phoenix. 

 

Anyway, I am getting really good results using a combination of Flying Phoenix different levels according to my intuition and sensing, VortexHealing and dzogchen. I have a been a VortexHealing practitioner since 2015 and received dzogchen transmissions since 2013. 

 

This helps reaching higher state in FP. VortexHealing from removing blockages more precisely and also because VortexHealing is a awakening and healing lineage and dzogchen for reaching a deeper state of emptiness and non-clinging. 

 

My feeling is a combination of practices can result in full Buddhahood and Immortality, realization of non duality and the Dao. 

 

Today I did 2 San Gong meditations followed by 3 different Golden Lotus FP, long form from level 1 and msw 60 70 40 5 from level 1. 

 

Total clarity with no suffering and full of joy. 

Hi! 😊

What level (class) have you done in Vortexhealing? In high classes awakening happens and preheaven jing is replenished. 

All the best 

15 hours ago, Sinai said:

well i will humbly ask them and tell my problem, all of my problems to reach this stage. i will send them any documents like NDA for which i don't share details of them, practices, also i won't teach them neither i have intent to do so also i will tell them about my problem from my own country, with path i have walked, my achievements, i will reveal anything i have, anything i can to do to get their trust, i let them know to consider me as their little brother or little son. well that's all i have 

Hi! 

Did not read everything sorry if i missed something.  Nathan Brine is still giving workshops in Vancouver. Have you sent him an email?

13 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Some people are pretty easily led and hasty though Micheal, especially these days with attention spans..

 

it sounds like an incredibly niche operation. Certainly fascinating. 

 

Michael did I see you were sharing about Xing and Ming. It is an interesting topic. Can I ask would you switch back and forth in the same day cultivating both, is that normal operation in daily practice would you say?

 

 

I get you. But cuddeling adults more and more is not the answer. And how many got harmed by Meditation and Qigong? 

It is niche and very dangerous without the transmission how its done but we as adults should be able to talk about it in a normal way.

You should ask shadow self about that...he is much deeper in that practices.

From my point of view it depends on the stage you are at. The earlier stages are more ming the later more xing but usually there is a bit of both in all the stages (except the very high ones). 

And the elixir unites them.

5 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Mod note

Regarding mercury: 

Mutually respectful discussion on the topic is welcome.

Due to the highly toxic nature of mercury and mercury containing compounds, including cinnabar, we feel that the potential for misuse and harm is high, consequently advocating or encouraging the ingestion of such compounds is not acceptable here and may be grounds for administrative action. 

Thanks for your cooperation.

I said that mercury is deadly and did not encourage anyone.

Only alchemical prepared is good. Dont understand your note.  Besides all here are adults and not 5 years old.

4 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

So are you saying it's ingested in very small quantities mixed with lead. 

 

that's incredible, so it's a precise poison that Kickstarts a process in the body as a medicine. 

 

makes sense in a way. Any idea how it works physiologically? Blood, liver, or another organ?  Is there any understanding of the pathways it takes to the root of the problems at all?

No that is not what i said.

I said that mercury is poisonous in its usual state. If one knows the alchemical preparation it is not poisonous anymore (same for lead).

Then it becomes very life enhancing and is the basis of the external elixir = philosophers stone. 

Well the pathway is energetic. It clears the illness underlying karmic pattern,  the suppressed emotions that are part of it, the karmic debt ascociated with it. Seems to clear (or kill?) bad bacteria, viruses etc. And has strong body rebuilding effects. 

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

That's great. I hope they will have a long life.

Since some of them where very sick and on the brick of death and then cured. 

I guess they enjoy each day with gratitude. 

Alchemical prepared mercury gives extremly long life. 

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Did your true teacher put mercury into his cocktail and enjoy a good night sleep?

This true teacher healed a lot of people with mercury (proberly prepared).

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This was a recipe for external alchemy(外丹術). It uses lead(鉛) and mercury(汞) in the process. It was deadly. Hence, Taoists dropped the external practice and went to adopted the internal alchemy which known as Neidan method(內丹術).

That is untrue! 

External alchemy still exists in some schools (also in India) and is very powerful. 

The external elixir = the red philosophers stone. 

Yes, mercury is used and it is deadly if you do not have a true teacher of these arts. If you have it is very powerful.

Idiots who thought they can learn that from books or find it out by themselves of course found out they could not. 

30 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

It is interesting that the character dan also refers to the color red, which in Western alchemy is the earthward manifesting (i.e. rubedo) of pure heavenly energies. Purity is generally represented by gold. 

 

I wonder if there is a different meaning depending on whether one is cultivating health, longevity, spiritual power, or realization.  

Interesting! 

Didnt know that it could mean red.

In external alchemy the highest form of the external elixir is red.

The external elixir is more commonly know as philosophers stone.  And the highest form is the red stone.

12 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

A lot of people talk about neidan and dan tian but it is not clear to me by what people mean by dan, 丹. 

 

So what do you all mean? It seems that definitions vary widely and that people sort of talk past each other on this issue. It seems fairly important. 

 

A few sample definitions are provided at Golden Elixir: 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/jindan.html

 

Note: I didn't ask "which one path is right, and how is every other path wrong" nor "who is right and who is an ignoramus in these arts." I'm curious as to what the different paths say. 

Hi! 

Shadow selfs different dans is a good list  as far as i am aware. Though most are minor dans or stages of variations of an unfolding process.

But different traditions have different definitions. 

Usually the highest is the golden elixir...this comes from merging of xing and ming...wich means merging of yuanshen with yuanqi.(but even that can vary).

In the traditions i know yuanshen is soul. So the soul merges with ming (=yuanqi =life battery). 

Soul/yuanshen is preheaven yin.

Ming/yuanqi is preheaven yang. 

Once they merge it becomes pure yang. 

This golden elixir matures into the yangshen and brings changes in awareness.  (But as i said,  different traditions follow different processes).

3 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Because it has form. 

Ah ok...understood!

Yeah i also was suprised that he equated the jade fluid with yuanjing.