Taoist Texts

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 Here's some antidote:  https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978

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Patrick Stokes

Senior Lecturer in Philosophy, Deakin University

 

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Digital souls: a philosophy of online immortality

Bloomsbury Academic. 2021.

Social media is full of dead people. What should we do with all these digital souls? Can we delete them, or do they have a right to persist? Patrick Stokes claims that we have a moral duty towards the digital dead. 

 

59 minutes ago, Cobie said:

major differences

42 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

or perhaps 'is there a sanity clause?'

Yes, Virginia

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

What’s euphemistically called ‘footbinding’, started in the period of the rise of Neo-Confucianism.

strangely enough it did not start in the period of the rise of  Confucianism. probably they needed 1200 years to figure out the connection

On 12/14/2023 at 5:57 AM, just a dream said:

I just wanted to know if anyone has aquired siddhi through their path

depends on how old is whom you ask. same as  "Is There a Santa Claus?"

22 minutes ago, Cobie said:

nbsp? not buddhist similar practices? 

 

  is actually one of the most frequently used HTML entities. Nbsp stands for non-breaking space, meaning that strings separated with this ..sorry the link glitched

12 hours ago, Mig said:

Any reason of why 節; jié was included?

it predates Confucianism coming from "The Classic of Rites" so it was always there as a key virtue just not codified as one of 4 keywords. In the  Song dynasty there was a major Confucian resurgence against the buddhist  excesses so the  confucians turned to their roots, reformulating the 4 principles to include 節; jié "the chaste moderation"

30 minutes ago, Mig said:

I couldn't find where the 四字 came from in the traditional Confucianism. Any sources you can share to explain the reason of those four which includes  節; jié ?

sure. as usual with the chinese, it is convoluted

the initial idea of 4 virtues different from the later 四字 is

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The Four Cardinal Principles and Eight Virtues are a set of Legalist (and later Confucian) foundational principles of morality. The Four Cardinal Principles are propriety (禮), righteousness (義), integrity (廉), and shame (恥).  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles_and_Eight_Virtues

some 1500 years later those morphed into current 四字 in a Song dynasty book 

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【出处】宋·洪迈《夷坚丙志·忠孝节义判官》：“吾今为忠孝节义判官，所主人间忠臣、孝子、义夫、节妇事也。”

https://baike.sogou.com/v198291.htm

 

then it was codified again in an immensely popular fantasy book of Ming dynasty

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封神演义    封神演義    Fēng shén Yǎn yì    Investiture of the Gods, major Ming dynasty vernacular novel of mythology and fantasy, very loosely based on King Wu of Zhou's 周武王[Zhou1 Wu3 wang2] overthrow of the Shang, subsequent material for opera, film, TV  

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【示例】明·许仲琳《封神演义》第二十回：“民知有忠孝节义，不知妄作邪为。”

https://baike.sogou.com/v198291.htm

 

30 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

how these views became widespread among people from a behavioral or practical perspective. Not from a belief or authority perspective. 

these views do not come from any perspective. the perspectives and the views come from the inner objective certainty of an individual: "i know that i have lived before, i know that i am going to live after. i may not remember the exact details but i just know it."

34 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

enlightenment (are successful) and most people seemingly want continuance of life

apparently you think that these are mutually exclusive. but ppl did not want just continuation of life, historically people were certain that the life will continue in a better or a worse rebirth. continuation per se was not an issue. what they wanted was a better continuation, a better rebirth. And enlightenment is just the best one of all the possible better rebirths.

50 minutes ago, S:C said:

What about xing 性? 

xing is nature in a sense of a characteristic of an object; this thread is a about nature in a sense of a changing physical--biological universe - there is no exact single world for the latter, nor a combined notion for it in chinese

50 minutes ago, S:C said:

Does Mr. Pregadio translate it wrongly, in your opinion?

no he does  a fine job. he does not conflate world-nature with object-nature or man-nature. he checked in on this forum long time ago btw

56 minutes ago, S:C said:

This started with Wittgenstein? Or even before?

in china it started in the Conf's time hence he had to do  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectification_of_names

in europe it started with christianity  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum

1 hour ago, S:C said:

and can there be a „wrong translation“ in a postmodernist world?

of course there can. screw the world, you are the decider whats wrong and whats right

1 hour ago, S:C said:

It really depends on the dictionary, you are using, doesn’t it?

there are shades of gray sure

46 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

without lapsing into some kind of dualist metaphysics

dualism is the cure not the disease

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But as usual TT is cherry picking his sources

i cherry pick english dictionaries;)

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The TTC is ethical in the sense of virtue ethics not in the sense of morality

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The TTC is amoral

this is a great example how the western opinion of chinese concepts is a direct 180 degree opposite of the very  said chinese concepts. Imagine reading the title Tao-te, knowing full well that in chinese it literally stands for 'morality'

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道德经    道德經    Dào dé jīng    the Book of Dao by Laozi or Lao-Tze, the sacred text of Daoism
道德    道德    dào dé    virtue; morality; ethics; CL:種|种[zhong3]

and then go ahead and claim that TTC is amoral. Its like black is white, war is peace mentality. In everything, not just TTC.

 I am endlessly fascinated how that even works in their minds. Also amused a bit.

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

Because ‘those who do not know’ write a lot of stupid commentaries.

exactly. like Jung said 'they dont have thoughts, they have opinions'. It amuses me to repeat that there is no word for 'nature' in ancient chinese'; and whatever it is translated as nature, nobody is required to 'follow' it. "to follow nature" is a meaningless made-up phrase, its a word salad

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na·ture/ˈnāCHər/noun the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

"the breathtaking beauty of nature"

 

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According to Cicero, the phrase “follow nature” was used by a lot of early philosophers, and basically summarizes the basic ideas of Greek humanistic ethics: that right and wrong is “something intimately adapted to our nature” (De Finibus, 5.12).  But Cicero also tells us that the Stoics in particular mean exactly three different things by the slogan.  Here they are, in the order given in De Finibus 4.14–15.https://ericsiggyscott.wordpress.com/2016/12/04/what-does-it-mean-to-follow-nature/

so this phrase was always meaningless. people just repeat it, and 'explain' it simply  because they do not think for themselves.

On 11/4/2023 at 5:02 AM, Marcus said:

A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

a lion is a cat. the first lesson would be called 'breakfast without hate'.  

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Got it. But what's four virtues (四字; sìzì)? Four characters?

yes 4 keywords

2 hours ago, Mig said:

Are all those related to Confucianism ethics or morals?

no. What you listed are strengths not virtues . Strengths have nothing to do with ethics or morals. An unethical or an immoral man can have them. Virtues are:

The Five Constants are:^[58]

• Ren (benevolence, humaneness)
• Yi (righteousness, justice)
• Li (propriety, rites)
• Zhi (智; zhì: wisdom, knowledge)
• Xin (sincerity, faithfulness)

These are accompanied by the classical four virtues (四字; sìzì), one of which (Yi) is also included among the Five Constants:

• Yi (see above)
• Loyalty (忠; zhōng)
• Filial piety (孝; xiào)
• Continence (节; 節; jié)

49 minutes ago, Mig said:

Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels

50 minutes ago, Mig said:

I tried to imagine that but I don't see a physical evidence that can show me that is possible. I have tried breathing from the navel and yes, I can feel warmth through my knees and feel the warmth of my circulation on my feet. As you can see, I still don't understand what I read

lets say a reader does not know anything about china or any kind of breath exercise. the sentence will inform him: 'real men always breath deep as if their breath comes from their heels up'. a reasonable reader will understand this sentence to a t. he will need no evidence nor experience nor explanation.  he will surmise: 'deep calm breath=good'. thats what ZZ says and there is nothing more to it.

now if you personally want to imitate the real men or to learn about ancient chinese culture and so on, you may do more research. but no research is necessary to understand ZZ for a reasonable average reader.

6 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

My sexual qigong and lovemaking teacher actually had some hip and shoulder problems (he was also very elderly)

so at that age he was capable of lovemaking? thats amazing! my hat off to him!

2 hours ago, Mig said:

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

that is exactly correct. the lesson to be learned from it is still 'taking it easy' tho

i used wife simply to find stories about family life as most relatable to all of us

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

3 hours ago, Mig said:

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original,

they are all from the original

3 hours ago, Mig said:

or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did?

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

3 hours ago, Mig said:

It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

4 hours ago, Mig said:

those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 莊 子 Zhuang zi?

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

3 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

you are not allowed to give any counter argument

i am not going to. i just wanted to ask, are you all right fren? me and my Himalayan fam are worried about you

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Teach me senpai!

all in due time grasshopper...all in due time...and its a 'Doctor'

2 minutes ago, GreatAutumn said:

Literally have a bunch of unaffiliated scientists(lets say a medical doctor and an electrical engineer, with provable credentials)

my first diploma literally says 'electrical engineer'...just saying

32 minutes ago, Neirong said:

There is a reason nobody in esoteric circles goes out of his way to persuade the "public" to start cultivating

actually all of them do. in order to get paid for their esoterics on their discord channels you know

38 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Just to be clear I'm not making any accusations about this teacher but just highlighting the need and importance of healthy skepticism and critical thinking. If there is evidence that I am unaware of that substantiates this story I think we would all be very eager and even excited to see it. 

i am that teacher and thank you. the poster made a long elaborate joke about me. sorry it mislead you to take the post seriously. it is a joke. as in 'ha-ha' joke.

1 hour ago, 小梦想 said:

The below is just general, not aimed at you Taoist texts.

i dont mind, anyone is welcome to say anything they want about me, i never get angry

1 hour ago, 小梦想 said:

FACT Taoist texts has read a lot of books so I would recommend him, I know for a FACT he looks decades youngers than his age and is in very good physical shape and never gets sick either, even a freak of nature disease like covid.

this seems to be aimed at me a lil bit so no, i am almost none of those things. i am just healthier than the most, that part is true

1 hour ago, 小梦想 said:

pick him, learn from him,

we are not in competition. i deal in intangibles: old words and eternal salvation. while you do something totally different. to borrow an  expression from my field: 'your students are as numerous as hair on a cowhide, mine are as few as horns on a cow's head'. however for my research i investigate the modern energetics, thats why i participate in these debates. well, and for giggles too.

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

delicious apple pies

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If I had Rudi's faqi abilities I'd be sorely tempted to keep my "powers" a secret

yeah but you see, then he would have to go get one of those job things

as to you i am pretty sure you have powers. you just keep them secret

16 minutes ago, HumanElectric said:

If I put my hand on a hot stove, I’ll know it. If you put your hand on a hot stove, you’ll know it. If a child puts their hand on a hot stove, they’ll know it. If one of the parties doesn’t feel anything, it can be said that something may be wrong with them, such as being unable to feel sensation.

hmm may be you wanna read up on "cults" and "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness". they know all kinds of things about stoves and stuff