Taoist Texts

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

By being it seemed to me to be suggesting (to be)... presence without self, or awareness. No?

well yes when the neidan appears you are indeed without self/awareness. But here being is the neidan

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

I read it as a non-dual statement: When you sense form within emptiness, the it can only be called a true "emptiness"? 

if by form you will mean the literal form of a literal thing then yes

9 minutes ago, stirling said:

The internal elixir is (neidan) in this case is... ?

well it sounds outlandish  but it is a literal new thing in your body: varying between a luminous golden pearl (or a millet grain) to a bright red shiny tangerine-sized ball.

1 hour ago, stirling said:

You could tell me that this is Tibetan Buddhism and I would buy it. These messages, while couched differently, are entirely familiar. It implies that this is all that needs to be done. What does the "next step" of your neidan work add to "true being"?

Thanks and sorry. This is something lost in translation. This passage should be read not with 'being' as in 'human being' in mind, but 'being' as 'a thing' Like below

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Appearances are illusory; practitioners should not be quick to believe illusions are realities. Chuang-tzu said, “The Way can be attained, but not seen.” When you sense ‘a thing’ within ‘no-thing,’ only then can it be called ‘a true thing.’ Although there is no such thing as true thing in the body, there is actually an experience, by which one can transform oneself. Once attained, it is realized forever. - Wang Hsien-ch’ing, from "Meditation and Health Principles and Practices", Translated and Edited by Thomas Cleary

whereas the thing in question is the internal elixir, the neidan

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Thanks so Song Dyn for widespread use of term for a set of practices- is this what you mean by a modern invention?

Not quite.

In chinese neidan always meant only one thing: the drug. It is not a set of practices nor a body of knowledge, it is the tangible resulting object of those.

In english medicine means 3 things: a drug, a set of practices, a body of knowledge.

When the westerners misappropriated the word neidan they ascribed these 3 things to it. Thats what i mean by the modern western  invention.

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Although, most people probably won't go for it if they have to give up wine, sex, and meat. 

defo, they wont;)

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

Isn't it about saving all sentient beings, not a personal, transactional relationship?  

Two things here: 1) saving all beings, is not what you guys think. Not by a long shot. 2) like you correctly noted neidan is useless for the most people, and those who are really interested in it will easily find very ample scholarly info on it, not the teacher  garbage.

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How could someone who possess such art have any need for goodwill?

not sure what that means but DDJ says evil arises from good

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And imagine how one could destroy all the fake, seminar-selling pseudo-Daoists by exposing the actual information?

Hehe, no is not possible because it is the seminar-hoppers who create seminar-sellers. Nor desirable, because the suffering humans crave hope, and i am too kind to deny them that even if i could.

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And if it's truly self-secret, then what harm can come?

Absolutely no harm, but like i said no good either. Just another 15 minites of useless typing down the drain. All in all good questions, man, thanks;)

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

If the objective is 5% Neidan,

Unfortunately it is not possible, the medicine of neidan being a quantum thing: either you have 100% of it or none at all.

1 hour ago, Apech said:

isn’t the term neidan  used in the cantong qi (sp?)

no;) not recorded there

http://www.shixiu.net/dujing/daojiaojingdian/1019.html

the term's history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan#Terminology

1 hour ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

he should post every step and instruction here.

maybe he should, but he wonders what good will possibly come out of it?

1 hour ago, Elysium said:

Which one are you?

I am a chosen one. Yet i am a total loser in all other respects, so i dont have any illusions of grandeur. My gift is not bankable. Its more of a curse actually.

1 hour ago, Chang dao ling said:

" Is it possible to learn neidan without a teacher"

Neidan is a made-up western word which means  1) the teaching of  alchemy, 2) the practice of  alchemy 3)  the product of  alchemy  (the  elixir).

These are 3 different things yet the westerners  lump  all 3 of them into one fake term

The westerners made up this  fake  term in order to delude themselves that they can  A) understand  the alchemy, B ) practice  the alchemy C) teach the alchemy - without ever D) producing the elixir.

To answer your question:

NO. For normal people, with or without a teacher, it is not possible. 

YES . For a particularly gifted, 1-in-a-billion person, it is possible .

2 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

tell the LDT meditation technique.

This exceptional book explains " LDT meditation technique" for  virtue, health, power and wisdom in complete detail.

Who could  get these results from this book will be able to advance to neidan. 

8 hours ago, silent thunder said:

TT shame on you.  ... I see you for what you are... a storyteller on the interwebs. You tell such stories and try and lure folks.  You nay say and contradict, and drop just enough flakes of truth to lure further. shame sir... deep shame.

Hear ye! Hear ye! Ye olde folks! King @silent thunder is right. I'm a lurer, i'm a flaker, i'm an interwebs storymaker. Pls shame and/or ignore me.

31 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Thanks. But my problem come ...not from practicing neidan or Qigong. 

Exactly like i predicted you chose to twist my words. I never said "your problem comes from practicing neidan or Qigong." I said: Your problems of violent thoughts and headache comes from fantasizing about 

19 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

Wang li ping? Currently he is the one of the best master who achieved High level MCO. Damo,Rudi, Nathan also achieved MCO.

 Yes, i know you dont see the connection but it is not my problem anymore. Over and out.

9 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Having experienced direct teachings from two 18th generation lineage holders over the last 12 years. 

Surely it is not a Quanzhen lineage. Because as a real lineage holder of Quanzhen, the very first thing that I transmit is the danger of anger and how to get rid of it.  It is the fundamental tenet of  real Quanzhen patriarchs. Strange that your holders never mentioned it over 12 years. You sound very angry at my silliness. Here, i have a write-up for you, it should help:

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https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/?do=findComment&comment=676090

Fortunately, my patriarchs Qiu and Ma have sent me an all-powerful magic spell to vanquish the demonic snares. Today I pass it on, so all sentient being could vanquish them as well. It is called the Four Forbiddances 四戒 Sì Jiè:
 Jiǔ Sè Cái Qì 酒 色 财 气 Wine Flesh Money Anger

...

气 Qì Anger
 This is the most prominent character trait of teachers: they are very, very angry, argumentative, jealous and envious. Not just towards the competition, but rather towards everybody. Their heart and brain fried by the incorrect practices, burning with greed, fueled by wine and meat, depleted by sex - they belittle and insult the competition, calumny the patriarchs. Thus the teachers violate the final forbiddance of Taoism – No Anger.

3 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Hakuin, it's his fourth energy technique

sorry could not find the technique with ggl. And who is your teacher IRL?

58 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

 

The Du and Ren, what place do they have when one takes the preheaven from within the postheaven?

i dont know;) in our lil version the pre-H comes from 'outside' or from 'empty-nothing' and the Du-Ren are the conduits for the pre-H.

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

produces something unlike anything else. 

what does it feel like?

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

buddhist version,

where does it come from?

28 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

no gravity or relevance.

Ai-ya! Levity and Irreverence!

26 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

poor lonesome practitioner of a buddhist method

Amitofo shifu!

28 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Care to describe the MCO?

In general any  stage in nedan is described two-fold: 1 how it feels 2 what does it produce. So for MCO  1 is a very special qi rotating in Ren-du, autonomously  (not a regular qi) 2 it immediately produces something very special called the elixir (it is unlike anything else). If any of these characteristics are lacking it is not an MCO.

3 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I kind of wondered why I don’t experience heat from this stuff. 

the heat comes from restless thoughts. it is a sign of progress but also of danger. You are a calm man by nature with calm thoughts and calm qi, hence no heat, which is good.

2 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

MCO. Damo,Rudi, Nathan also achieved MCO.

You do not see the connection but your serious health issue is caused by this kind of groundless fantasizing. It is not too late to refrain from these fantasies, then you will get well.

Here is my reference to help you:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/?do=findComment&comment=676097

Please get well soon.

57 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

TT projects his assumptions onto others about him.  It's kind of his theme here.

Yes @silent thunder it is my shtick,  you are right.  if you interested let me know, we can have a thoughtful discussion on  whether these entrepreneurs  are the real McCoy. If not, please consider that them, their ilk, and their marketing, have directly  whipped this young man's illness  (and the deviations of many others like him).

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

I thought that the MCO was a description for the replenishing cycle, and that formula was a rather specific later stage practice. 

thats quite all right, its normal. The thing about cycles and stages is that they often happen simultaneously, and also it is hard to know which is which without a personal experience of the MCO. In addition, since  not a single teacher on the market experienced the MCO so far, so...all in all its a tough row to hoe.

32 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Sadly his course fees amount to $2,750,

ah  how the mighty have fallen. When the neidan market was in full swing they claimed that you have to make a pilgrimage, swear a blood oath, get a magical lineage oral secret heart transmission through personal touch face to face...but when the market dried up suddenly a boiler-plate video  is just fine  makes you wonder

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

The definition of synchronicity I had in mind is the Jungian one, so a spiritual event ( be it dream, vision etc ) followed by physical events that are connected to the spiritual event but not causally connected.

excellent. now whoever figures out to what are these two events causally connected - will understand how magic works

25 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

which is impossible to know, synchronicities can almost never be distinguished from unlikely coincidences.

not sure if you want me reply but here goes;)

it is only impossible to know because we did not define the term 'synchronicity' - once we define it properly, then it is quite possible.

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

If you are immortal could you promise never to rhyme Wimbledon and owned again…ever?

of course i can, because it is a rhyme for the ages

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Only a Xian can teach ? Wow, thats quite a steep hurdle. 

Yes only a Xian can teach Xian-hood. Either there is a hurdle or there is larping. To each his own, its a free country

7 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Does this mean  only winners of  Wimbledon can teach one anything about tennis?

There once was a teacher of tennis

Who charged the fools pretty pennies

Never won Wimbledon

Nor a racket he owned

Since he was  such a larping genius

12 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I'll never know if I played a part. All I know is, it seemed like that was precisely what she taught me that stuff for.  

Thanks for the story. The principle of magic is synchronicity which in turns works like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

meaning we must not know if it us who do the magic or things just happen on their own. If the magician is sure it is him then he deludes himself.

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

@Taoist Texts what kind of immortality do you expect from "internal alchemy" practices?

first physical then spiritual

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

How exactly would elixir make you immortal?

the exact mechanism is secret, but the general answer is : by going back to the Immortal Source

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

You seem to think that either I'm lying, or I fell for some trick. 

@TaomeowI did not say anything like that.  And  take my word, i dont think that either.  I only mentioned the liver concretely to show that I pay attention to what you say. So, if we had some crossed wires, I apologize , please forgive me kindly.

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

As for how to deflect a hurricane with magic, that's not WLP, that's ayahuasca's teachings, in my humble case, and I think I said clearly at the time that I've no way of knowing whether it was a coincidence.

this post of yours I dont remember, I was not referring to you, there was a gent who claimed that

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Whereas their real cultivation effort should be focused on becoming a senior citizen, for starters.

Could not put it better myself, thats why all these young western guys peddling the fountain of youth make me laugh

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Not mentioned in your proposed list of verifiable signs

interestingly 'hitting with the liver' is mentioned in my authoritative sources on Xingyiquan, so what you related is doable, I have no doubts about that. My take it that the lump travelling under the skin was not the liver itself, but a lump  of the liver qi travelling along the liver meridian.

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

wait until I'm on the offensive

you cannot see it but i am waving a white flag right now. Or may be you can?;)

5 hours ago, Nintendao said:

so is is true what they say about 牢固封闭?

yes, totally true;)

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Are the Daoist signs different to the Buddhist ones?

not so much different as covering the different aspects of the same psychosomatic phenomena. Buddism is concerned with the psycho part, while  Daosim with the somatic part

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Which texts describe the Taoist signs?

literally every one. E. g.

6. Signs of Verification of Turning Around the Light

http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch6.html

or 

https://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/Poets/L/LuTungPin/HundredChara/index.html

53 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Buddhism the signs are "public domain", in the Suttas

well yes and no. This signs are available to the public, but they are not understandable to the public, only to those who experienced the signs himself

55 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

someone who progressed without knowing the keywords would be able to describe it in their own words and it would be pretty obvious what it is.

yes obvious, only to those who experienced the same progress himself

56 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

In Taoism, are the signs described in texts or they're described exclusively via oral transmission?

oral transmission as separate from texts  and comprising what is lacking in texts does not exist.  what does exist is oral explanation of texts. So the answer is no, all the signs are described in texts.  That said, some small number of the signs is described in code or mentioned rarely.

15 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

"Finger" is a metaphor for pointing out or indicating.

yes finger is a designation for a thing or simply speaking, finger is a name of a thing.

18 hours ago, surrogate corpse said:

物things莫are  none非without指a name，而but 指a name 非is not 指 a name。

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All things have a name but a name (on its own) is not a name.

which interestingly is correct because 'a table' contains no description of the table. if tomorrow we agree to call a table by the name of 'droink' it would work too.

1 hour ago, surrogate corpse said:

Over the summer I intend to drive myself a little mad figuring out just how deep in the GSLz weeds the Qiwulun is.

very commendable.  a noble undertaking indeed. you seem to be doing fine but i wish you would tell us your understanding of what these cryptic sentences mean and why they were uttered. otherwise they dont make much sense. E.g 

1 hour ago, surrogate corpse said:

GSLz (指物論): 物莫非指，而指非指。

No thing is not a finger, yet a finger is not a finger.

Huh? This is not quite clear. However once we learn who is the author

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gongsun_Long

it may dawn on us that this a very pragmatic, political discourse with implications echoing for millennia to come.

38 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

speaks distinctly of  your level of attainment and 'mastery of your domain'

1 hour ago, oak said:

@Taoist Texts I've tried to find your posts about Pregadio on this forum in vain. Do they still exist?

Greetings and salutations! I remember exchanging 3 or 4 messages with him on this forum when he was introducing his new book . Long time ago, and for the life of me i cant find those now. If you wanna know anything specific pls let me know. Ironically his groundbreaking work is on the laboratory elixir which understandably is of only academic interest.

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

if you see what I mean.

i totally do. like i mentioned in our field of neidan immortality is predicated on having the elixir. so the elixir is a proxy for immortality. having the elixir cannot be proven to an outsider but having the elixir can totally be verbally proven to an experienced insider. It is the same in Buddhism with 'emptiness', advaita and ony other milestones. Any milestones in buddhism or taoism can be  verbally described and whoever experienced these milestones will unavoidably describe them using  certain keywords (even without ever hearing those keywords before). Thats why i always ask 'hey what thats feel like' and if i get a shuffle dance in lieu of a precise reply i know that is not it;)

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I once got an energy reading from african shaman Malidoma Some. 

excellent, here he is https://g.co/kgs/dhtqmDx  (i hope i got the pronoun right)

49 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I remember the anecdote of the travelling liver too

all right hombre thats it,now you owe us a strange and unusual anecdote of your own personal experience pretty please

(not necessarily a haha anecdote, otherwise that would turn into an inside joke) 

54 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

background in electrical engineering?

eh its an albatross around my pencil neck  i tell ya

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Yeah, that's how it sounded to me.   

Did I answer your questions to your satisfaction? I was just trying to be helpful, not arguing. 

of course you did , and you were. Thank you very much. Who can forget the curious case of the travelling liver? Not me.

16 hours ago, idquest said:

there was an incident one time after his class when he wanted to demonstrate something to a student and accidentally released some amount of qi that was more than he wanted. The student had to sit

or this. Or the senior citizen who on this forum claimed to deflect a hurricane with magic. If an eyewitness says it happened then it happened. No argument there, i am totally convinced that it did happen for you good folk. Unfortuntely, it did not not happen in my reality which is my loss;)

Going back to the OP, what WLP and Brine purport to teach is immortality (neidan in western parlance) . Its a weird way to make a living but hey, not the weirdest one. Now when a teacher teaches immortality, is either he is  an immortal already - then he knows what he teaches. Or he is not immortal yet - then he is  a fraud. And being immortal or not starts from having a little thing called neidan, or the elixir. So per the OP whoever is interested in Brine  just gotta ask him: "Sifu with all due respect, you teach neidan, so....do you have the neidan? " Then watch the shuffle dance begin.