Nungali

Depends what you want them for . If its sound, you test by sound, but you could be testing a bunch of elcheapo ones . You might have to rely on the salesperson a bit , but that can be dodgy , often they know nothing about them. Maybe try to get an old antique instead of one from the modern ' mass produced ' market. That can be tricky too . Or make one

Fun with the elements ;

sitting around in a a tiny concrete box ( luxury apartment ) with your ac on eating McDonalds and watching tv .... mmmmm lovely !

W T F ? ! Oh dear oh dear .....

and the consciousness behind all that is what Karl is championing here .... thats why he disses the indigenous so much and fears a world without his modern safety net .

he just makes stuff up ... like ; 'our ancestors destroyed the environment ... hence ....... ' - no people will survive when the system collapses - and an all time Karl classic - whilst dissing the human skills of survival throughout massive environmental change and challenge , with this brilliant all time statement "If you dropped me off anywhere in the world, in nature, I would be dead after a few days " Well, sure you would

Your funny ! I dont know who your ancestors were (Vikings ? ) ... but you assume we all have the same ones. 'Ancestors ' here in Oz behaved nothing like you claim ! Indigenous people behave nothing like you state , they manage environment ... intricately ! With greater understanding, in some cases, than modern science ( I cite the consultations going in in NE South America between a scientific environmental research team { the instigators } and indigenous elders { the consultants } as one example ) . In any case , you outline this type of behavior as you describe it - reckless and destroying the environment - yet tag the green movement and environmentalism as anti human life and lift up capitalism, which has been behind more environmental destruction, on a mass scale, than any other human activity ! R i i i g h t !

I saw that ..... too late now ...... Mr Bond.

Wot ? ohhhh ... I get it , its were you work .

Beans ? P f f f f t ! However, if you Karl, chose to take a magic Mushroom or two ..... although I doubt you could get a sitter ...... ohhhhh the carnage !

To do otherwise would be 'scientism' wouldnt it ; to project the scientific principles you work with in that field , into the other areas of you life that dont really work that way or apply to those principles . One cant rationalize the unconscious .... well, I cant . The other thing is , mode of operation. Eg; We had a bad boss, friend was nervous and furtive around him, he seemed conditioned by hierarchical positions ( he even said I should respect the bad boss more because he was a CEO , regardless of him being bad for the job ) . There was trouble, people were getting laid off, he was told to go to the office for an interview with the bad boss and freaked out as he thought he was getting the sack. He was also in my MA club ( yeah, I know .... he was a bit scared of women too ), so I told him ; "If he gets too pushy in the interview, imagine you have your sword, draw it, go on guard ( on the 'astral' ) and point the tip at his eyes and get ready to attack ! " He comes back .... the Boss had started up on him so he did it. he ended up keeping his job and got a raise ! Most will realize the action gave the nervous furtive guy confidence and determination that was detected ( consciously or not ) by the other ... all body language, facial expression or even pheromones (if you buy into that one ), etc . Still, it worked ? Who cares whether it was 'magic' or not - it was a successful operation. Thing is, he wasnt capable of the conscious realization, and doing the whole thing rationally and 'scientifically' , he could not just achieve that and put out those signals deliberately , me had to have a way of getting his emotive energies running . So for me , 'magic' works , I would give my old trumpie a cylinder pat on cold mornings for a single kick start up ..... it probably focused me to kick the beast correctly , the danger is to lose the rational balance , and just pat it instead of doing oil changes . But still, all that is still 'within the field of the operator ' . We need to do my rat trap experiment

Clinically dead ? Where / when is real death ? No breath ? No heart beat ? No brain activity ? No cell reproduction ? Besides you yourself cited them as NDOs which, I believe, are NEAR death experiences ?

... and there is another perspective on that as well . Look at the dates Newton was around . He also translated a version of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes. Back then , many had a 'foot in both camps' .

Yep ! And they are 'within the field of the operator ' -- subjective experience open to personal interpretation. I am sure I could easily find the other clinical view on NDEs . If someone can have a 'real' OOB, then we should be able to test it . Many try , I am yet to be convinced that it is an objective phenomena.

IMO , they ^ seem ' qualities of mind ' - subjective. Proof requires 'outward' objective reality (nowadays) . Eg; we can demonstrate that a placebo works but this is subjective and within the person themselves and related to their belief systems, conditioning and internal self regulation systems . To prove a 'magical operation' one would have to demonstrate empirically . Something like the placebo test but outside of the field of the operator . Everything you said above is either self referential or dependent on certain interpretations. The modern idea of ' reality ' ( of which Karl seems a proponent ) is very dualistic and seems either to be classified as 'real' or 'ideal' (or delusional, imagined, lied about, made up, etc ) . Thing is, our minds were formed over aeons of development before this very recent 'dualism' came into dominant western paradigm only a few hundred years ago . The issue may well not be ; ' real or not ' but involve our own perceptions of what constitutes 'reality' in the first place ! 'Some' would instantly poo-poo this concept ... as they are certain what reality is here is an interesting read on an alternative view ; http://www.harpur.org/PJCHdaimonicreality.htm

Oh yeah ..... charging water with crystal bowls ? I would just make a ' gem elixir ' easier and cheaper and just as effective. All you need is an understanding of the effect and attribution what each gem / mineral / crystal and a small sample, a glass bowl and some good water . They also have agricultural applications .

Of course, in T. B. the 'bell' is used for the sound of the bell ( not the bowl being struck ( but the bowl or tingshaw could be used to make a similar sound * ) It depends on which ritual and what usage, but generally ; Its a bit like a conch; the sound drives away evil spirits, or a warning to stay away . In T. B. it is usually paired with the dorje .... 'male' and 'female' , a pairing of that sort is common in many traditions ; wand to cup, lance to grail, spear to cauldron, etc . It can be used in invocation, summoning a deity for protection, or a symbolic teaching tool, or used in mudra or representing the sound of Buddha's teaching, or symbolize the attainment of wisdom. In mudra (in connection with chanting), it is used in an interesting way in the 'hell / heaven' aspect; dorje in right (active ) hand pointing down ( to subdue 'hell' ) and bell in left (receptive) hand pointing up ( to receive 'grace' from 'heaven ' ) ... many traditions do similar but with different magical 'tools' . Generally, the sound of a bell and specifically in western 'magic' the bell is used to 'carry' the intent or the words of the operation, like a medium that it 'hitches a ride on' . A good tingshaw does not stop ringing, listen carefully, there is no point that it actually stops, it gets progressively and smoothly fainter and fainter, even when inaudible there is still vibration. That is why one should not handle or stop the bell noise, its not supposed to be 'cut off' but goes on 'to infinity' and carries the intent of the operation with it . In western tradition the bell is central 3 ; bell, book and candle , for evocation . Here is Crowley on the use of the bell in the western tradition; " The Magical Bell is best attached to the chain. In some systems of Magick a number of bells have been worn, sewn upon the hem of the robe with the idea of symbolizing that every movement of the Magician should make music. But the Bell of which we shall speak is a more important implement. This Bell summons and alarms; and it is also the Bell which sounds at the elevation of the Host. " It is thus also the "Astral Bell" of the Magician. footnote: During certain meditation-practices the Student hears a bell resound in the depths of his being. It is not subjective, for it is sometimes heard by other people. Some Magicians are able to call the attention of those with whom they wish to communicate at a distance by its means, or, so it is said. " The Bell of which we speak is a disk of some two inches in diameter, very slightly bent into a shape not unlike that of a cymbal. A hole in the centre permits the passage of a short leather thong, by which it may be attached to the chain. At the other end of the chain is the striker; which, in Tibet, is usually made of human bone. (He is clearly describing a tingshaw ) " The Bell itself is made of electrum magicum, an alloy of the "seven metals" blended together in a special manner. First the gold is melted up with the silver during a favourable aspect of the sun and moon; these are then fused with tin when Jupiter is well dignified. Lead is added under an auspicious Saturn; and so for the quicksilver, copper, and iron, when Mercury, Venus, and Mars are of good augury. " The sound of this Bell is indescribably commanding, solemn, and majestic. Without even the minutest jar, its single notes tinkle fainter and fainter into silence. At the sound of this Bell the Universe ceases for an indivisible moment of time, and attends to the Will of the Magician. Let him not interrupt the sound of this Bell. Let this be that which is written, Liber VII, v, 31: "There is a solemnity of the silence. There is no more voice at all." " As the Magical Book was the record of the past, so is the Magick Bell the prophecy of the future. The manifested shall repeat itself again and again, always a clear thin note, always a simplicity of music, yet ever less and less disturbing the infinite silence until the end. " Western tradition is much more 'hands on' with its magical tools ; students begin making or acquiring their magical tools early. In some Buddhist traditions , only the Lama touches; the rest stand back in awe, sometimes they are bought out and put on an altar . The local T.B. ers seemed horrified at my questions of usage and handling of my own T.B. ritual objects and my comparing them to the western ones. Thing is, afterwards, the visiting Lama didnt seem to mind at all and seemed interested in the comparisons between objects of different traditions ... and asked a lot of intelligent question about them ! There are some other rather groovy T. B . 'tool sets' out there ; http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/37221-demon-queller-sets/

Indeed

But hooch is full of many psychoactive chemicals with various strains having different level profiles of all those chemicals , including 65 cannabinoids other than thc !

I used them for many purposes ( I used to sell them , along with other Nepalese ' objects de magica' ) . One use was to half fill with warm water, place on someones back as they lie down and get the bowl resonating . Its like a sound massage that gets deep inside the joints and related tissue. Ever had a vibra sauna ? Like that , without the sauna ..... you get up and you are still humming for a while . Then there is the 'magical' usage . A great bowl is made by the process of ( what ever the Nepalese call it ) ' magicum electrum' ' not just a blend of gold and silver (and made during a favorable aspect of Sun Moon) , but a 7 metal blend, combining the planetary metals smelted at correct astrological times . There is also a 5 and 3 metal blend for some objects . .... or just a type of brass .... or even 'white metal ' , as they call it ( melted down whatever ; truck engine blocks included ... and a bit of 'shiny stuff '. Depends what you want the sound to do; vibrational healing stuff, 'magical bell' , or just have some fun . Cleansing is putting good energy through something, to stop further 'accumulations' . Healing is addressing a situation when the 'accumulations' have 'taken hold' or established themselves .