Jump to content


Photo

[HHC Study] Hua Hu Ching Chapter 24


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#17 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:29 AM

True 3bob.  I am not an Agnostic.  I am an Atheist.  Therfore I can honestly state my understandings as I have.  No fair comparing an apple with an orange.

 

I will agree that we find agnosticism dominant within science.  They have to be "politically correct".  I don't have that need.

 

And, of course, we do understand that I am voicing only "my" opinions and understandings.  Will I ever know the truth of all knowledge of the universe?  No way in hell.  However, I can make assumptions based on the understandings I do have.

 

I have on a number of occasions suggested that someone was thinking too much.  But I have never told them what they should believe; only what I believe, and I have never shied away from trying to explain why I believe as I do.

 

Perhaps I have contradicted what others have said and written.  I even contradict myself on occasion.  No biggie.

 

Awareness:  This is an important concept.  As is the concept of being natural, understanding our true nature and that it is really not very different from the nature of the entire universe.  So here we can look for correlations between the two.

 

So yes, an Agnostic would say, "I don't know."  An Atheist would say, "I see no basis for such a belief."


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#18 3bob

3bob

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 4795 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:If not here, where -
  • Interests:Om

Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:27 AM

True 3bob.  I am not an Agnostic.  I am an Atheist.  Therfore I can honestly state my understandings as I have.  No fair comparing an apple with an orange.

 

I will agree that we find agnosticism dominant within science.  They have to be "politically correct".  I don't have that need.

 

And, of course, we do understand that I am voicing only "my" opinions and understandings.  Will I ever know the truth of all knowledge of the universe?  No way in hell.  However, I can make assumptions based on the understandings I do have.

 

I have on a number of occasions suggested that someone was thinking too much.  But I have never told them what they should believe; only what I believe, and I have never shied away from trying to explain why I believe as I do.

 

Perhaps I have contradicted what others have said and written.  I even contradict myself on occasion.  No biggie.

 

Awareness:  This is an important concept.  As is the concept of being natural, understanding our true nature and that it is really not very different from the nature of the entire universe.  So here we can look for correlations between the two.

 

So yes, an Agnostic would say, "I don't know."  An Atheist would say, "I see no basis for such a belief."

 

MH,

That is a good explanation of where you are coming from but it contradicts the T.T.C. thus one or someone in your position would have to say that they only see a need or a basis for some bits and pieces of the T.T.C. teachings while tossing the rest. (which is a common thing for us westerners to do when dealing with eastern traditions that are based on thousands of years of practice and results beyond just opinions... thus some of us  think we know better.  (and even toss an agnostic type of position)


Edited by 3bob, 24 February 2014 - 06:31 AM.


#19 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:29 AM

MH,

That is a good explanation of where you are coming from but it contradicts the T.T.C. thus one or someone in your position would have to say that they only see a need or a basis for some bits and pieces of the T.T.C. teachings while tossing the rest. (which is a common thing for us westerners to do when dealing with eastern traditions that are based on thousands of years of practice and results beyond just opinions... thus some of us  think we know better.  (and even toss an agnostic type of position)

Excellent observation.  I do not dispute what you have said.  I don't think I have ever disputed that understanding on this forum.  I have even gone so far as to remind other members that I am a Taoist, a Materialist, a Nietzschean, an Atheist, and Anarchist.  I could even add Optimist to those labels.

 

And this applies to the current thread (What has TaoBums taught you?) or whatever its title is.  To see things through different eyes was the last couple comments.

 

So no, I cannot say I am a Taoist and Taoist only.  That will never happen in this lifetime.  But I can say that those aspects of Taoism that fit into my life are followed as well as possible until conditions require me to rely on others of my belief system.

 

My Atheism requires me to disregard anything beyond what I observe within the natural universe, and this would be aminly in regard to all forms of supernatural essences.  But it does NOT require me to ignore an aspect of spirituality that is compatible with my other beliefs.  And afterall, spirituality and supernatural are two totally different concepts.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#20 3bob

3bob

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 4795 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:If not here, where -
  • Interests:Om

Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:21 AM

Excellent observation.  I do not dispute what you have said.  I don't think I have ever disputed that understanding on this forum.  I have even gone so far as to remind other members that I am a Taoist, a Materialist, a Nietzschean, an Atheist, and Anarchist.  I could even add Optimist to those labels.

 

And this applies to the current thread (What has TaoBums taught you?) or whatever its title is.  To see things through different eyes was the last couple comments.

 

So no, I cannot say I am a Taoist and Taoist only.  That will never happen in this lifetime.  But I can say that those aspects of Taoism that fit into my life are followed as well as possible until conditions require me to rely on others of my belief system.

 

My Atheism requires me to disregard anything beyond what I observe within the natural universe, and this would be aminly in regard to all forms of supernatural essences.  But it does NOT require me to ignore an aspect of spirituality that is compatible with my other beliefs.  And afterall, spirituality and supernatural are two totally different concepts.

 

Well that mostly hits the nail on the head - and I have to admit that I to have a composite of various teachings that I find useful or that fit into my present state,  yet some of those teachings are contradictory to one another on certain levels.  (for instance parts of Christianity, Hinduism and science)  Btw, I see or define "concepts" as being mostly an intellectually safe or also a mind blowing exercise and not so much as a nitty-gritty, heartfelt and personal lifestyle of involvement that can bring about wisdom that is greater than intellect alone.  Lastly I don't think I agree with your last sentence of,  " And after-all, spirituality and supernatural are two totally different concepts"  since it depends on the eye of the beholder and their 1st hand experiences which may not be provable by ordinary or just physical means yet are factual to them.
 

  •  

Edited by 3bob, 24 February 2014 - 09:23 AM.


#21 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:51 AM

Lastly I don't think I agree with your last sentence of,  " And after-all, spirituality and supernatural are two totally different concepts"  since it depends on the eye of the beholder and their 1st hand experiences which may not be provable by ordinary or just physical means yet are factual to them.
 

Hehehe.  Thank goodness I don't always need others' approval and agreement of my understandings and opinions.

 

You are correct pointing that out though because I can speak from only my point of view.  I do not and cannot experience others' experiences.  Most would not believe many of mine if I spoke of them.

 

Yes, concepts are just generalizations of thought processes.  Not something that should be held to as a dogmatic teaching.  The concepts are there but they might need adjusting as we travel along our journey as we may encounter, at any time, conditions that don't fully apply to our concepts.  Perhaps I could say that our concepts are our compass while out and about.

 

As you implied above, it is good to have different compasses, one for True North, one for Magnetic North and others for variants between the two so that we always know the general direction we are headed.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#22 3bob

3bob

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 4795 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:If not here, where -
  • Interests:Om

Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:49 AM

Hehehe.  Thank goodness I don't always need others' approval and agreement of my understandings and opinions.

 

You are correct pointing that out though because I can speak from only my point of view.  I do not and cannot experience others' experiences.  Most would not believe many of mine if I spoke of them.

 

Yes, concepts are just generalizations of thought processes.  Not something that should be held to as a dogmatic teaching.  The concepts are there but they might need adjusting as we travel along our journey as we may encounter, at any time, conditions that don't fully apply to our concepts.  Perhaps I could say that our concepts are our compass while out and about.

 

As you implied above, it is good to have different compasses, one for True North, one for Magnetic North and others for variants between the two so that we always know the general direction we are headed.

 

I'll second that even if you don't need me to... ;)


  • Marblehead said thanks for this

#23 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:57 AM

I'll second that even if you don't need me to... ;)

This has been a nice discussion.  Thanks.  This chapter was easy for me to discuss as it didn't conflict with any of my present understandings.  And, of course, I do enjoy rambling when we talk of these concepts.  One concept links to another so firmly that it is almost impossible to not wander the side-paths occasionally.


  • 3bob said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#24 GrandmasterP

GrandmasterP

    "Cultivate Mindfully"

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 6591 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lincolnshire Coast: UK
  • Interests:Self-Employed Window Cleaner
    QiGong on the beach.

Posted 30 March 2014 - 01:58 PM

Hadn't heard of this HHC so hit Amazon and found this review...

"I starting reading this when I got home, and something seemed off. Turns out that they laugh about this book on Taoist discussion boards. Hua Hu Ching was a forgery in the 8th century CE. The intent was to convert western Chinese Buddhists to Taoism by presenting Lao Tzu as teaching Buddhist thought in China before Buddha's Enlightenment. The earlier chapters have a rather Buddhist feel, which turns into a "Religious Taoist" feel in the later chapters with discussions on magic, Feng Shui, "angelic" sex, and the need to worship the 64 I Ching hexagrams!

It was responsible for some tremendous bad blood between Buddhists and Taoists, and was eventually ordered destroyed by an emperor in the 14th century. Apparently, at least a handful of Taoists believe in it and have kept it alive via oral tradition.

The first several chapters are beautiful, insightful, and poetic, though a bit wordy for Lao Tzu. for instance, "Division is contrary to the nature of the Tao. / Foregoing antagonism and separation, one enters into the harmonious oneness of all things." (3)

However, after Chapter 50, things go rapidly downhill, I mean falling-off-a-cliff downhill, with bizarre New-Age flavored droppings such as "Because yin and yang are not complete within us as individuals, we pair up to integrate them and bring forth new life./ Although most people spend their entire lives following this biological impulse, it is only a tiny portion of our beings as well. / If we remain obsessed with seeds and eggs, we are married to the fertile reproductive valley of the Mysterious Mother but not to her immeasurable heart and all-knowing mind." (65) Sounds just like Lao Tzu, right?

Or how about this? "In ancient times, various holistic sciences were developed by hightly evolved beings to enable their own evolution and that of others...The student who ignores them hinders the development of all beings." (54)

I wish I had researched this one before I bought it. I'd like to have my money back! Interested in wisdom from Taoism? Read the Tao Te Ching, and Chuang Tzu. Interested in Buddhist scripture? Read the Dhammapada, The Way of the Bodhisattva, and other sutras. Avoid this junk, which was banned for its dishonesty."

Is this Walker HHC walker's 'own' translation of 'just' an extant Taoist text or has he produced some of the content himself by 'channeling' or similar means?

Edited by GrandmasterP, 30 March 2014 - 01:58 PM.

Chinese Health QiGong Association here...
http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
( Dogen).




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users