Buddhist/Daoist Views Related to Xing/Dharmakaya(Split From What do you think about Neidan(內丹)?)

[cake1234566]

22 pages in finally a good neidan related topic 

 

Buddhism (and especially mahayana - vajrayana) shares quite a bit of similarity with original daoism but neidan is a different method with different goals that happens to overlap in a few places (I am both a practicioner of vajrayana and neidan)

 

Dzogchen is strangely used as a xing method by a few different lineages though, with exact descriptions of the crystal kati channel

 

The golden elixir is your true nature yes but its simultaneously a real energetic - physical substance with specific instructions, not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

Edited December 27, 2025 by cake1234566

[SodaChanh]

1 minute ago, cake1234566 said:

The golden elixer is your true nature yes but its simultaneously a real energetic - physical substance with specific instructions, not something to be found pre-existing as in vajrayana (primordial purity)

 

Any texts from Vajrayana on that? 

[cake1234566]

2 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

 

Any texts from Vajrayana on that? 

Primordial purity? Or the golden elixir

If its the latter no thats neidan only because it ascribes to a world view that vajrayana does not

The first one tons but you should get transmission to read anuttara yoga tantra

(im assuming you're familiar with vajrayana as you posted the dzogchen vid)

[SodaChanh]

1 minute ago, Antares said:

The more Ming you have the more you tend to love other people women 

 

This is due to desire that clouts your vision.

 

I am a high libido person and only sitting in awareness can rid me of the desire. But there is no intention of any kind to rid me of anything. All coming from a higher place. 

 

Real love is unconditional. 

 

 

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, SodaChanh said:

Real love is unconditional.

Yeah, how many girlfriends you have got for last few months?

[Apech]

Zouwang has something of the dzogchen about it.

[SodaChanh]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Yeah, how many girlfriends you have got for last few months?

How many have you got? 

 

The amount of unconscious desire is just the lack of awareness in that particular direction. 

 

For some it can be very strong, in others weak. 

 

If you can remain aware of desire whilst it coming up, you can learn a thing or two. 

[stirling]

On topic: 

 

I had to look up Xing, but I would say it best correlates to the Tibetan Buddhist term "Rigpa", the primordial "awareness" that is the essence of all things, surpassing all teachings, religions and philosophies. Here are couple of a nifty quoteson Rigpa and the contrast between intellectual knowledge and that which comes with gnosis (elaborating on some of my previous comments):

 

Quote

 

Coming to the conclusion of the meaning of teachings is like turning on a light in a dark room: what was hidden becomes clear. It is the experience of "a-ha!" when the pieces click into place and are understood. It's different from simple conceptual understanding in that it is something we know rather than something we have merely heard. For example, being told about yellow and red
cushions in a room is like gaining an intellectual understanding of them, but if we go into the room when it is dark, we cannot tell which cushion is which.

 

Concluding the meaning is like turning the light on: then we directly know the red and the yellow. The teaching is no longer something we can only repeat, it is part of us.

 

-

 

All the teachings are of a single essence. I am referring to rigpa, to the clear light. No matter how much you learn, how many texts you study, how many teachings you receive, you will not have gotten the main point if you do not know this single essence. Tibetans have a saying: "You can receive so many teachings that your head is flat from being touched with the initiation vase, but if you don't know the essence, nothing will change."

 

When one does not directly know the nature of mind, the teachings can be difficult to understand. They may seem to refer to something impossible, because the nature of mind is beyond the conceptual mind and cannot be comprehended by it. 

Trying to grasp the nature of mind through concepts is like trying to understand the nature of the sun by studying shadows: something can be learned, but the essence remains unknown. This is why practice is necessary, to go beyond the moving mind and to know the nature of mind directly.

 

- Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

 

 

You actually don't need complete enlightenment to be able to reliably understand what Rigpa is. A qualified (realized) teacher can give you an introduction to the nature of it that, with practice, you can use to identify and rest in as the simplest most direct practice possible. This is the essence of both Dzogchen (or Atiyoga) practice AND the deepest meditative practice of Zen, Shikantaza.

 

 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Zouwang has something of the dzogchen about it.

 

Had to look that up, and yes I absolutely agree. Of course, Tibetan Buddhism, Daoism, and Ch'an all grew up together in Northern China in a particular period and were not always taught strictly as separate schools, apparently . 

 

Contrast ""quiet sitting" (靜坐; jìngzuò), with shikantaza's "silent illumination" (mozhao, Chinese: 默照).

[Antares]

9 hours ago, stirling said:

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

I talked to him personally and asked him a few questions. When I asked about Ming methods ih his teaching he refused to answer my question. Then I asked him about his opinion on Taiji methods and whether they might correlate and can go along with Dzogchen practice. His answer was "you should quit it if you want to practice Tibetan methods I teach". I have never had conversation with him after that and have no desire to be honest. In my opinion (and from Daoist perspective) one should not do any Dream Yoga until they are good at Ming methods and have their yuan jing full. Even if it is full the dream practice is somewhat different in Neidan, there is nothing like "lucid dreaming". But he held this seminar to complete beginners. I am not sure his teaching is authentic Tibetan Buddhism, probably some modern variation of it. Also I was a member of that group  for awhile and I did not see there any Ming related methods. 

[ChiDragon]

56 minutes ago, Antares said:

Then I asked him about his opinion on Taiji methods and whether they might correlate and can go along with Dzogchen practice. His answer was "you should quit it if you want to practice Tibetan methods I teach".

I think you asked the wrong person about that. The two religions and beliefs are completely different. You should know better. My friend!

 

It's a basic rule that one should not ask the teacher about a different system. That is a big no no.

Edited December 28, 2025 by ChiDragon

[DynamicEquilibrium]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It's a basic rule that one should not ask the teacher about a different system. That is a big no no.

Take care, this point will be argued 😁

[SodaChanh]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

I talked to him personally and asked him a few questions. When I asked about Ming methods ih his teaching he refused to answer my question. Then I asked him about his opinion on Taiji methods and whether they might correlate and can go along with Dzogchen practice. His answer was "you should quit it if you want to practice Tibetan methods I teach". I have never had conversation with him after that and have no desire to be honest. In my opinion (and from Daoist perspective) one should not do any Dream Yoga until they are good at Ming methods and have their yuan jing full. Even if it is full the dream practice is somewhat different in Neidan, there is nothing like "lucid dreaming". But he held this seminar to complete beginners. I am not sure his teaching is authentic Tibetan Buddhism, probably some modern variation of it. Also I was a member of that group  for awhile and I did not see there any Ming related methods. 

 

The important point in dreaming is not the content but 'who is dreaming?' 

 

Ming has no direct equivalent. 

 

It is like going to a Gnostic Christian 'why you refuse to teach me Ming, are you high or something?' 😁

[cake1234566]

Theres nothing in the tibetan buddhist canon mentioning mixing any other methods and whether to work with them or not so its an opinion that varies with every teacher
Many lamas practice qi gong in fact, i'm guessing because its gentler than tsa lung for those of advanced age

 

Ming methods do absolutely exist in vajrayana but they aren't very commonly taught unless you know what you're looking for, generally the goal is to get students out of the burning building of samsara first and ask questions later, and sadly there just aren't many that make it past the initial important step to see what else there is

The amritasiddhi still has a lineage of transmission in vajrayana in fact, which is very close to neidan

Its just not a transmission you would really see unless you sought out a lama that could give it to you and requested it

Similarly, a gnostic christian wouldn't know what you meant by ming, but you might be interested to know that the christian monks of mount athos are where the english term "navel gazing" comes from 

 

Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is a teacher in the bon tradition, it shares quite a bit of similarities with vajrayana but draws more from the traditional tibetan religion

Bon ranges all the way from slightly domesticated shamans to full on monastic buddhism lol, theres quite a bit of variety

[Apech]

There’s quite a lot of historical crossover between Tibet and China.  There are tankas with the trigrams on for instance.  And the 10th Karmapa regularly met with sifus and they attended his funeral.

 

So I don’t think we should think things are very rigidly separated.

 

 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

Stumbled across this just now out of curiosity for this discussion.

 

https://theindianheritage.blogspot.com/2014/01/lord-krishna-and-shiva-worship-in.html?m=1

Edited December 28, 2025 by DynamicEquilibrium

[forestofclarity]

It seems like Xing is equivocated to Buddhanature by Liu Yiming in his commentary to Awakening Reality and Huang Yuanji from the Middle School. The Secret of the Golden Flower I believe was incorporated into the Longmen Pai by Ming De. Wang Mu in his Foundations reject that there is a one to one comparison, so there is a spectrum of views. I don't think this is necessarily the case in many Southern or other schools.

 

[Antares]

3 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

The important point in dreaming is not the content but 'who is dreaming?' 

We need to understand why the visions occur and eliminate the root of the problem. Ming is what needed for that. Or the energy that is produced in authentic tummo. 

 

3 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

Ming has no direct equivalent. 

 

That' the point! I have nothing against Tibetan stuff, but I think it is very much about karmic inclination, many of Tibetan masters were reborn in Tibet or somewhere else but they had background in these methods from previous lives. So for them this is fine, it is their path

 

3 hours ago, SodaChanh said:

It is like going to a Gnostic Christian 'why you refuse to teach me Ming, are you high or something?' 😁

 

I used to visit that group once. My observation was that all of them were in very Yin state of energy. And you know what - I used to talk to one person from that group for a few years and he wrote that Daoist methods, all Yoga stuff are WRONG and only their "gnostic" path is something special. But in fact this is Yin way of "spirituality". Most of these groups have strong Egregor which can give some boost of energy but you have to be aware of that it will demand smth from you back afterwards

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Take care, this point will be argued 😁

Thank you! My friend from 龍門派。

[DynamicEquilibrium]

28 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Thank you! My friend from 龍門派。

Thanks,  氣龍 my friend 🙇🏻

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Antares said:

I talked to him personally and asked him a few questions. When I asked about Ming methods ih his teaching he refused to answer my question. Then I asked him about his opinion on Taiji methods and whether they might correlate and can go along with Dzogchen practice. His answer was "you should quit it if you want to practice Tibetan methods I teach". I have never had conversation with him after that and have no desire to be honest. In my opinion (and from Daoist perspective) one should not do any Dream Yoga until they are good at Ming methods and have their yuan jing full. Even if it is full the dream practice is somewhat different in Neidan, there is nothing like "lucid dreaming". But he held this seminar to complete beginners. I am not sure his teaching is authentic Tibetan Buddhism, probably some modern variation of it. Also I was a member of that group  for awhile and I did not see there any Ming related methods. 

 

Yeah... he'll want to keep it in the tradition, I would imagine. No surprise there. This is often very much the case with all of the original Tibetan teachers that escaped China, or were trained by them. 

 

I can't tell from your post, and you may know this, but the eventual goal of Dream Practice is not lucid dream, but rather being awakened in all moments including sleep. This is something that, in my experience, sometimes naturally happens on (or just after) retreats. Lucid dreaming would be more of a siddhi than a desirable path milestone.

 

Do you mind if I ask: Do you know experientially what is meant by Rigpa, or the "nature of mind"? This isn't intended as a "gotcha", it  might not be something that arises in the traditions you have pursued.