Chapter One of the TTC

[Cobie]

 

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

What stops the Scholars from doing so? 

It is a corruption of the original script.

 

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It is the logic that dictates the encouragement to make sense out of it.

You can use punctuation in the English translation, or add a commentary.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Why are you looking at an incomplete copy of it?

The MWD is complete

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

The MWD is complete

May I see the MWD version?

[Cobie]

The original is in vertical lines without breaks.

 

MWD ch. 1

 

道 可 道 也

非 恆 道 也

名 可 名 也

非 恆 名 也    

 

无 名 萬 物

之 始 也

有 名 萬 物

之 母 也 故            

 

恆 无 欲 也

以 觀 其 眇             

恆 有 欲 也

以 觀 其 所 噭     

 

兩 者 同 出          

異 名 同 胃             

玄 之 有 玄          

眾 眇 之 門 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:52 PM by Cobie

[Apech]

What does ‘grok its quale’ mean?

[Cobie]

 

On 25/12/2025 at 1:30 AM, ChiDragon said:

3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

無 (wu2) and 有 (you3) did not have the meanings “invisible” and “visible”.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 01:14 AM by Cobie

[Cobie]

Trying to find places in the DDJ with descriptions of Dao.  Ch. 25:

 

 

start of ch. 25 by Henricks (G)

 

又状虫成， 
先天地生， 
敚[糸禾]， 

独立而不亥， 

可以为天下母。 
未智（知）其名， 
字之曰道。 

There is a form that developed from primordial chaos 
That was born before heaven and earth. 
Silent and still, it stands on its own and does not change. 

…

It can be regarded as the mother of all under heaven. 
Not yet knowing its name, 
We refer to it as the Dao. 
 

 

start of ch. 25 by Henricks (MWD)
1. There was something formed out of chaos, 
2. That was born before Heaven and Earth. 
3. Quiet and Still! Pure and deep! 
4. It stands on its own and does not change. 

5. It can be regarded as the mother of Heaven and Earth. 
6. I do not yet know its name: 
7. I "style" it "the Way."

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:04 AM by Cobie

[Cobie]

start of  ch. 25  by CD

 

1. 有物混成
2. 先天地生
3. 寂兮寥兮
4. 獨立而不改

5. 周行而不殆

6. 可以為天地母
7. 吾不知其名
8. 強字之曰"道"

1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;
4. Independent and stable;
5. Continuously cycling but never exhausted;

 

6. It may be the mother of heaven and earth.
7. I don't know its name.
8. I'm reluctant to call it "Tao".

 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:03 AM by Cobie

[Lairg]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

There was a thing formed by chaos;

 

I am not sure that chaos is the right word.  How does chaos form a non-chaotic thing.

 

A thing must be low-chaotic to have a form

 

Perhaps humans do not perceive easily what Is before Existence occurs

 

 

[Cobie]

 

4 minutes ago, Lairg said:

… humans do not perceive easily what Is before Existence occurs 

Yes I agree. Nobody can know; it’s 自然 (zi4 ran2) unknowable

 

 

Edited Sunday at 01:40 AM by Cobie

[Cobie]

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao …
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao …
 

Does it say that anywhere else in the DDJ?

 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:09 AM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Cobie said:

无 名 萬 物之 始 也1

Even though 天地 did not use here. The logic still holds with 萬 物. 
 

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Cobie said:

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao …
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao …
 

Does it say that anywhere else in the DDJ?
 

無 (wu2) and 有 (you3) did not have the meanings “invisible” and “visible”.

 

旡: None, nothing, zero, the image is "invisible".

有: something that exists that is "visible".

Edited Sunday at 02:24 AM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

What does ‘grok its quale’ mean?

欲以觀其妙。
Observe Tao's invisible characteristic by intuition.

It took quite sometimes for me to find the right English words for the translation!

Notes: 

Grok is a neologism coined by the American writer Robert A. Heinlein for his 1961 science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land. While the Oxford English Dictionary summarizes the meaning of grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy, to establish rapport with" and "to empathize or communicate sympathetically (with).

Qule: a property as it is experienced as distinct from any source it might have in a physical object

Edited Sunday at 03:43 AM by ChiDragon

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

grok as "to understand intuitively or by empathy, to establish rapport with"

 

Grok is to move beyond theoretical/received understandings - and to experience what stands under the perceived reality.  Hence arises genuine understanding.

 

English is good when used carefully.   It is said that the genuine/inner initiate is a wordsmith - making sure that the words used actually begin/stimulate a valued process.

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:15 AM by Lairg

[ChiDragon]

32 minutes ago, Lairg said:

English is good when used carefully.   

I believe this applies to any language. 

Can you come up with some better words for chaos?

Edited Sunday at 04:44 AM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

The original is in vertical lines without breaks.

The break is done by the reader. Anyone could make a mistake and ended up with a misinterpretation.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Can you come up with some better words for chaos?

 

My own view is that Existence is generated, always penetrated and finally terminated by the Unmanifest.

 

Once I wondered about ancient names for The Source of All and immediately the word Empyrean appeared spelt in my mind - as used by Aristotle - but even Aristotle was struggling to find the suitable human words

https://everything.explained.today/Empyrean/

 

The Source of All provides life force and intent for all substance and intelligence - until TSoA has had enough experiences at which stage Existence ceases and a Mahapralaya continues until the next Existence. 

 

Mahāpralaya (महाप्रलय).—'the great dissolution', the total annihilation of the universe at the end of the life of Brahman, when all the lokas with their inhabitants, the gods, saints &c. including Brahman himself are annihilated; महाप्रलयमारुत (mahāpralayamāruta) ...... Ve.3.4.

 

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/mahapralaya

 

 

[Cobie]

 

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Even though 天地 did not use here. The logic still holds with 萬 物. 

 

Substituing you would get:

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of all things.
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

imo 'origin' and 'mother' both refer to the same, so makes no sense to me.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:44 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

17 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

旡: None, nothing, zero, the image is "invisible".

有: something that exists that is "visible".

 

No. To be 'invisible' does not necessarily imply it does not exist; and to exist does not necessarily imply it's visible. E.g. an object that allows light to pass through, is not visible (e.g. glass).

 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:24 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

10 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

The break is done by the reader.

 

No. The breaks are not up to the reader. The original DDJ used the traditional system of tetrasyllables and quatrains.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 03:43 PM by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

Substituing you would get:

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of all things.
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

 

imo 'origin' and 'mother' both refer to the same, so makes no sense to me.

Oh, my dear poor Cobie. 
When we do a translation, the first thing we do is do an interpretation, then do the translation.

The lines are saying:
Tao has not been seen before the point of origin all things are created or existed. After all things come into existence, then Tao can be seen.

Instead arguing with the meanings of the words, how about follow the logic of the lines. Understand? 

Edited Sunday at 07:57 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

No. The breaks are not up to the reader. The original DDJ used the traditional system of tetrasyllables and quatrains.

No, the traditional system of tetrasyllables and quatrains were not invented yet. How can it be traditional?

You are way ahead of the time.

Edited Sunday at 07:58 PM by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

No. To be 'invisible' does not necessarily imply it does not exist; and to exist does not necessarily imply it's visible. E.g. an object that allows light to pass through, is not visible (e.g. glass).

 

 

Haha, are you blind? You cannot see a glass with your eyes?

[ChiDragon]

17 hours ago, Cobie said:

3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao …
4. Visible, was a name given to Tao …
 

Does it say that anywhere else in the DDJ?

Actually, I did like to stay using the original characters of 無 and 有. It is because if I use them, the original thought remains. Somehow, I was reluctantly to use 'invisible' and 'visible'. Since it was a translation, that was the closest I can come up with to please the public.

Edited Sunday at 08:01 PM by ChiDragon