Who are these people ?

[Nungali]

Who do they look similar to and where did they originate from ? 

 

                          

- the women often had lip tattoos , but if one can ignore that ;

 

   

 

origins :   Basically  ( )  they came  a  'basal people'  ;  a very early split off from east Asian hunter gatherers , before  the east Asians split into  North East Asian and South East Asian people forming the Jamon people  who moved further  east and then became isolated due to sea level rises during the end of the last ice age . 

 

Then they were admixed with people from Siberia , particularly Lake Bikal  ( a place I have made many posts and conjectures about )  and also the Tibetan Plateau . 

 

They are Japanese people ... the originals .    

 

 

 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Who do they look similar to and where did they originate from ? 

 

                          

- the women often had lip tattoos , but if one can ignore that ;

 

   

 

origins :   Basically  ( )  they came  a  'basal people'  ;  a very early split off from east Asian hunter gatherers , before  the east Asians split into  North East Asian and South East Asian people forming the Jamon people  who moved further  east and then became isolated due to sea level rises during the end of the last ice age . 

 

Then they were admixed with people from Siberia , particularly Lake Bikal  ( a place I have made many posts and conjectures about )  and also the Tibetan Plateau . 

 

They are Japanese people ... the originals .    

 

 

 

 

Wow, that is incredible and another example among countless others that shows how lust for power corrupts...

[Apech]

The Ainu have an isolate language I believe.

[bradley]

This is super interesting. 

 

[Haribol]

@Nungali Good ol Aussie mate, tip of the morning to you!
 

I apologize for commenting before having watched the vid, but I wondered if you could either confirm or «debunk» the following two statements before I do so:

1. would the basal Asian and lake bakai admixture be the same as what is often reffered to as «ancestral north Eurasian (ANE),» in modern genetics, which has contributed to the Northern European, Siberian as well as some Native American populations genetically, but interestingly not to Asian populations? 
 

2. on the always so reliable YouTube some years ago, I think I recall a video claiming that Ainu has around 30% euro dna. Is this so?

 

Interresting thread, I’ll get back to the vid and hope you’re doing good?

[Taomeow]

This thread has lake Bikal and lake Bakai but it is Baikal.  Buryat-Mongolic languages origin.  In Buryat it is pronounced closer to  Baygal, the meaning is something like "rich lake" or "nature" -- I guess it was almost the same thing to the folks who named it.   

 

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

The Ainu have an isolate language I believe.

 

Yes. It is not related to any other language we know of .  It probably contains new concepts and ideas within it  and is sometimes called 'a unique linguistic treasure ' .   No wonder it is unique as part of its evolution is from the Paleo - Siberian  languages  which contain isolates as well .

 

[ The term "Paleo-Siberian" is a geographic grouping for several ancient, unrelated language isolates and small families, including Yeniseian, Yukaghir, Nivkh, and Chukotko-Kamchatkan. It is possible that other now-extinct languages from these groups were spoken in the Baikal region during different periods. ]

 

So it seems another stream to add to my research on the fascinating Lake Biakal area . 
 

Spoiler

[  For those that haven't seen these posts ;   I traced back mainstream religions  to influence from lake Baikal area ;  going into central Asia and coming out as two main streams  east ( via Zoroastrianism as a major influence in Levant religions and east into India as Vedanta  and east via Pamirs and Tibet into a Bon reformation { Budha Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, the founding Buddha of the indigenous Tibetan Bon religion, which has historical ties to Central Asia}  and Buddhism which 'came out of ' Vedanta .  The suggestion is Lake Baikal was an ice age human refugia  - an area surrounded by ice  that had a livable environment 'in the middle' .  Such environments were under pressure to maintain closed  sustainability regarding the environment and 'human relations' , so ones that survived well had a proven  record of valuable premises , laws ,  'religion'  etc . At the end of the ice age they were able to spread out  over the land . Of course, the other human refugia ( there were others ) that didnt have these processes probably didnt survive . 

 

These streams of 'religion' or 'ways of living and understanding '  often later focus on environmental and animal rights  ( classic example Zoroastrian Aryan religion reformation  and Miwoche's Bon reformation  )  and human organisation .  

-  unfortunately as the ice further retreated and the vast Steppe area was exposed , and Indo Europeans ( and predecessors )  spread out , eventually domesticating the horse , raid and run cultures developed , against these principles .  ]

 

I made a mistake in the OP .... admixture with people from Tibet and lake Bikal came before  sea rise isolation ( of course ) .

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Haribol said:

@Nungali Good ol Aussie mate, tip of the morning to you!
 

I apologize for commenting before having watched the vid, but I wondered if you could either confirm or «debunk» the following two statements before I do so:

1. would the basal Asian and lake bakai admixture be the same as what is often reffered to as «ancestral north Eurasian (ANE),» in modern genetics, which has contributed to the Northern European, Siberian as well as some Native American populations genetically, but interestingly not to Asian populations? 

 

No , related but not the same . ANE is a component that contributed to the others including Baikal  . 

 

Baikal  admixture describes the complex and dynamic population history of the Lake Baikal region itself. The ancient populations around Lake Baikal were often mixtures of ANE ancestry and Ancient Northeast Asian (ANA) or other East Asian-related populations at various times. For instance, Early Bronze Age individuals from this region had high ANE levels (around 72%), while others had more ANA ancestry. This region is also considered a potential location where the ANE population mixed with ancient East Asians to form the ancestral gene pool of Native Americans. 

 

So ... we could even speculate it 'generated ' influence  ( and one being a way to 'consider' continued survival in environment)  in western,   eastern  and Native Americans  'ways' .

 

7 hours ago, Haribol said:

 

2. on the always so reliable YouTube some years ago, I think I recall a video claiming that Ainu has around 30% euro dna. Is this so?

 

Interresting thread, I’ll get back to the vid and hope you’re doing good?

 

'Euro DNA '   is a term thats hard to answer about .  Obviously some of those people look like modern Euros,  Russians  and Siberians .

 

The ANE component  is related through the ancient Siberian peoples  where some 'Euro appearance ' comes from  but they are genetically east Asian not European 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

This thread has lake Bikal and lake Bakai but it is Baikal.  Buryat-Mongolic languages origin.  In Buryat it is pronounced closer to  Baygal, the meaning is something like "rich lake" or "nature" -- I guess it was almost the same thing to the folks who named it.   

 

 

 

It does ?  I must have missed those wiggly red lines under my clumsy typing    

[Taomeow]

Interesting thread, thank you. 

 

Spoiler

A guy who was a year my junior in high school found me on Classmates at some point and started writing letters. He was a big cheese at the Baikal-Amur railway at the time (with something like 25 thousand subordinates under him) and was trying to convince me to take a trip and visit, with VIP treatment both en route and on location.  That was mighty tempting...  but those letters he wrote --sometimes they made a whole lot of sense and described a lot of things Baikal I'd be happy to participate in, but sometimes spewed such nonsense that he scared me off.  Took a while to realize that the nonsense ones were written when he was piss drunk.  Which obviously gave me pause...  so that VIP trip was never undertaken.  Boo hoo...        

 

[Nungali]

 

 

You could read  Dmitry Ermakov's  book  as a replacement for the experience    .....  eventually he took the journey ... part of it talks about how infamous some trains  were around there  -  due  to 'inter ethnic' knife fights on the train . 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Above it is stated how these people (or the ancestors of the modern Ainu )  contribute to Amerindian populations ; 

 

as a curiosity , check this out ; 

 

 

'' Northwest Coast designs are a bit easier to read, sometimes. For example, certain designs such as bears can be identified, but other designs on the bear can be very difficult, for example, frogs coming from the eyes, or wolves on sea bears, both very abstract. More difficult are design elements known collectively as “formline designs.” The known individual elements have been given names such as Ovoid, Tertiary-S, U-form, Split-U, the Salmon-trout’s head, and negative and positive space. Each design element may have countless variations. We don’t know the Native terms for the elements if in fact there were Native terms.

 

'' Historically, other possibilities for east-west artistic influences existed through personal contact or through trade ‘brokers.’ My research reveals oral narratives on both sides of the North Pacific that tell of early contact with each other. Based on interviews of Ainu and Northwest Coast elders from the Tlingit area (now southern Alaska), the Aleutian Islands seem to have been the most logical trans-Pacific route for the Ainu, Aleut and Tlingit peoples. The Aleutian people, neighbors of the Tlingit, certainly traveled east and west, and they no doubt traveled to Kamchatka where the Kamchatka Ainu lived.''

 

https://apjjf.org/chisato-kitty-dubreuil/2589/article

 

Haida  (  Indigenous people of America NW pacific coast ) 

 

                           

 

Some textiles show varied  influence   ;

 

[Taomeow]

double

Edited December 19 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

You could read  Dmitry Ermakov's  book  as a replacement for the experience    .....  eventually he took the journey ... part of it talks about how infamous some trains  were around there  -  due  to 'inter ethnic' knife fights on the train . 

 

 

 

 

That Ermakov book was first published in 1995.  The 90s were the lawless decade for the freshly collapsed USSR, and there's no end to horror stories I heard and read about those times...  but they were unique in that respect, those times I mean. 

 

I did take that trip as a toddler, and I could swear I remember stuff -- except my mom told me stories about it later, so it's hard to tell now which ones I really remember and which ones came alive for me based on what she told me.  If anything, according to my mom people on the train were afraid of me, because I looked like a much younger child but talked like a much older one --

 they thought I was some bewitched infant, and some old ladies discreetly made the sign of the cross...      

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

That Ermakov book was first published in 1995.  The 90s were the lawless decade for the freshly collapsed USSR, and there's no end to horror stories I heard and read about those times...  but they were unique in that respect, those times I mean. 

 

I did take that trip as a toddler, and I could swear I remember stuff -- except my mom told me stories about it later, so it's hard to tell now which ones I really remember and which ones came alive for me based on what she told me.  If anything, according to my mom people on the train were afraid of me, because I looked like a much younger child but talked like a much older one --

 they thought I was some bewitched infant, and some old ladies discreetly made the sign of the cross...       

 

Errrmmmmmmm  ,   well .....  . 

 

 

 

 

 

[Haribol]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

So ... we could even speculate it 'generated ' influence  ( and one being a way to 'consider' continued survival in environment)  in western,   eastern  and Native Americans  'ways' .

So fascinating, this. Would you like to speculate some?  : )

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Haribol said:

So fascinating, this. Would you like to speculate some?  : )

 

I already have , in other older posts  , in detail .   Do a google seach asking about the key words and terms you want to know about  including a narrowing that they are to be from daobus forum . 

 

As I said above ; if people in refugia (or even larger areas )  didnt (or even still dont ) have social systems  that support survival under pressure ... they probably are not around anymore .  

 

here is another one , going back to lake Baikal  and further east in the Russian  Steppe ; veneration of the dog . Not only did it spread over the top to Nth America , traces of the tradition are evident in Zoroastrianism ; which had strict legislation about the dog protecting it , in various levels of 'dog classes'   and ( as outlined in the first part  of the vid below ) associated with soul transmigration , a bridge crossing and a dog guardian  ( here the difference is , on the 'Chinvat Bridge ' you meet  your 'Daena' who is accompanied by a dog )

 

see from   8:27