Hello

[J.Finder]

Hello everyone!

A close friend suggested I join this community, saying that the conversations here have a rare depth and sincerity. I’ve been reading a bit already, and I can feel the calm, reflective atmosphere — it’s refreshing.

I’m practitioner with interests in Tibetan Buddhism, inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement, and elements of the Northern tradition. My practice leans toward inner work, symbols, and direct experience. I am currently searching for interesting materials and books to study that may be similar in spirit)

Happy to be here, and I look forward to learning from you and contributing where it feels meaningful.

[forestofclarity]

Welcome!

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, J.Finder said:

Hello everyone!

A close friend suggested I join this community, saying that the conversations here have a rare depth and sincerity. I’ve been reading a bit already, and I can feel the calm, reflective atmosphere — it’s refreshing.

I’m practitioner with interests in Tibetan Buddhism, inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement, and elements of the Northern tradition. My practice leans toward inner work, symbols, and direct experience. I am currently searching for interesting materials and books to study that may be similar in spirit)

Happy to be here, and I look forward to learning from you and contributing where it feels meaningful.

 

hello and welcome .   I am interested in this bit , maybe  ...... depending on what you mean by it ;

 

''  ... inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement ... ''

''  ...  

[stirling]

On 11/16/2025 at 5:38 AM, J.Finder said:

Hello everyone!

A close friend suggested I join this community, saying that the conversations here have a rare depth and sincerity. I’ve been reading a bit already, and I can feel the calm, reflective atmosphere — it’s refreshing.

I’m practitioner with interests in Tibetan Buddhism, inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement, and elements of the Northern tradition. My practice leans toward inner work, symbols, and direct experience. I am currently searching for interesting materials and books to study that may be similar in spirit)

Happy to be here, and I look forward to learning from you and contributing where it feels meaningful.

 

I'd like to hear more about your practice in Buddhism and Goetia too. I spent many years practicing in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, and had success in "attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel".

[Cobie]

Welcome to the forum.
 

 

[J.Finder]

On 17.11.2025 at 10:37 AM, Nungali said:

hello and welcome .   I am interested in this bit , maybe  ...... depending on what you mean by it ;

 

''  ... inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement ... ''

''  ...  

 

Nice to meet you!
 

I’m not deeply familiar with the traditional, evocation-based approaches to Goetia.... and to be honest, I wouldn’t dare to practice them without proper experience and a qualified mentor.
 

Regarding inner Goetia, so as not to distort the idea, I’ll quote the author from whom I first encountered this term:
“Inner Goetia — a system of mind-therapy based on traditional views of constructive and destructive matrices that govern both personal and transpersonal levels of the mind.”
 

For me personally, it’s a set of methods and approaches for observing destructive tendencies of the mind, recognizing how they manifest internally, and noticing the blind spots that create inner disharmony or block effective action.

Practically speaking, whenever I encounter an inner dead-end — fear, uncertainty, doubt, or anything that destabilizes me and drains energy — I review my inner perspectives and beliefs to understand where the “hooks” of that destructive state are and what can be done to counterbalance it.

[J.Finder]

On 17.11.2025 at 10:37 AM, Nungali said:

 

hello and welcome .   I am interested in this bit , maybe  ...... depending on what you mean by it ;

 

''  ... inner Goetia as a path of psychological and spiritual refinement ... ''

''  ...  

And what about you? How do you understand Inner Goetia, or are there any similar approaches that resonate with you?

[J.Finder]

On 18.11.2025 at 4:15 AM, Cobie said:

Welcome to the forum.
 

 

Hi! nice to meet you 

[J.Finder]

On 18.11.2025 at 12:49 AM, stirling said:

 

I'd like to hear more about your practice in Buddhism and Goetia too. I spent many years practicing in the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, and had success in "attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel".

 

Nice to meet you!
For me personally, this is an impressive experience — thank you for sharing!
 

Regarding practice, I feel very close to what Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche describe in their books. I have also drawn many insights and much “food for inner work” and inspiration from the writings of the Dalai Lama, Lama Sopa (Khenpo Jampa Sopa), and Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. In meditation (śamatha and vipassanā) and in everyday life I resonate with the approach of transforming obscuring emotions and bringing them onto the Path — here following the instructions of Padmasambhava. 
 

What Buddhism calls the “five poisons of the mind” I try to track and work with using the corresponding five wisdoms. I was deeply impressed by trips to India and Nepal — the sense of harmony, clarity and openness experienced in the Buddhist monasteries of Dharamsala left a strong impression.
 

For me, the Inner Goetia approach as a system for overcoming “dead ends of consciousness” resonates in some ways with tantric Buddhist practice: identify / recognize a destructive manifestation and oppose it with a remedy. I’m currently rereading The New Lemegeton: goetic psychoanalysis (author Enmerkar), and when I find such dead ends in myself I try to work through them in daily life (and in meditation). By observation, this approach makes me freer and more harmonious, and external circumstances tend to arrange themselves more harmoniously as well.
 

Could you tell a bit more about your experience?
Have you personally met any contemporary teachers of the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, or perhaps attended any teachings?

“Success in the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” sounds very impressive — did that achievement open new horizons on the Path and make you stronger and freer?
 

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, J.Finder said:

 

Nice to meet you!
For me personally, this is an impressive experience — thank you for sharing!
 

Regarding practice, I feel very close to what Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche describe in their books. I have also drawn many insights and much “food for inner work” and inspiration from the writings of the Dalai Lama, Lama Sopa (Khenpo Jampa Sopa), and Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. In meditation (śamatha and vipassanā) and in everyday life I resonate with the approach of transforming obscuring emotions and bringing them onto the Path — here following the instructions of Padmasambhava. 
 

What Buddhism calls the “five poisons of the mind” I try to track and work with using the corresponding five wisdoms. I was deeply impressed by trips to India and Nepal — the sense of harmony, clarity and openness experienced in the Buddhist monasteries of Dharamsala left a strong impression.
 

For me, the Inner Goetia approach as a system for overcoming “dead ends of consciousness” resonates in some ways with tantric Buddhist practice: identify / recognize a destructive manifestation and oppose it with a remedy. I’m currently rereading The New Lemegeton: goetic psychoanalysis (author Enmerkar), and when I find such dead ends in myself I try to work through them in daily life (and in meditation). By observation, this approach makes me freer and more harmonious, and external circumstances tend to arrange themselves more harmoniously as well.
 

Could you tell a bit more about your experience?
Have you personally met any contemporary teachers of the Nyingma/Dzogchen tradition, or perhaps attended any teachings?

“Success in the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” sounds very impressive — did that achievement open new horizons on the Path and make you stronger and freer?
 

 

Hi,

 

You should be able to continue these conversations in the appropriate sections of Daobums if you wish.  Either General discussion or Buddhist or Esoteric and so on.  Obviously its up to you how you use the board and engage in discussion - I hope you enjoy the experience and look forward to engaging with you.

 

A.

 

PS.  I have some years experience in Karma Kagyu Vajrayana, ngondro and mahamudra and so on.

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, J.Finder said:

 

Nice to meet you!
 

I’m not deeply familiar with the traditional, evocation-based approaches to Goetia.... and to be honest, I wouldn’t dare to practice them without proper experience and a qualified mentor.
 

Regarding inner Goetia, so as not to distort the idea, I’ll quote the author from whom I first encountered this term:
“Inner Goetia — a system of mind-therapy based on traditional views of constructive and destructive matrices that govern both personal and transpersonal levels of the mind.”

 

For me personally, it’s a set of methods and approaches for observing destructive tendencies of the mind, recognizing how they manifest internally, and noticing the blind spots that create inner disharmony or block effective action.

Practically speaking, whenever I encounter an inner dead-end — fear, uncertainty, doubt, or anything that destabilizes me and drains energy — I review my inner perspectives and beliefs to understand where the “hooks” of that destructive state are and what can be done to counterbalance it.

 

Thanks for the response .  I have a few posts around here relating to my views and research on it .  There is the paper by Dr Wilson van Dusen - the evidence of spirits in madness  (  Dr Van Dusen was head psychiatrist at a US state hospital )  where also he observed  positive and negative 'matrices '   (  '  beings ' , or in his clinical language - hallucinations of good or bad order )  that seemed to comply with the hierarchies Swedenborg detailed ) .   Some posts outlining my own work and going way back somewhere here .... some pictures of my temple set up .   Some info on possible internal structures and arrangements  and how that intersects with initiatory organisations structure  as a model for a private one .  And of course I have my own  ''  set of methods and approaches for observing destructive tendencies of the mind    ...  and what can be done to counterbalance it.''

 

Are you familiar with IFT  ?  

 

https://psychology.org.au/for-members/publications/inpsych/2022/winter-2022/internal-family-systems-therapy

 

 

What I am seeing here is an emergent understanding  of the 'hierarchy of spirits' theory that is behind Goetia .  An understanding on how it can be used to regulate and improve psychology and spirit and heal  associated disruptions - first , within magical initiatory orders , then  with what seemed a lone psychologist / psychiatrist ( Dr Van Dusen ) and now a whole psychological movement .

 

Although I feel the IFT psychology is missing a few major points -   that might be fuel for an interesting discussion . 

 

( can you cite the author and/or  their work you mentioned above ? )  

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, J.Finder said:

And what about you? How do you understand Inner Goetia, or are there any similar approaches that resonate with you?

 

Basically that there is not  'a self'  ..... normally .  We run on all sorts of 'drives' , influences , conditioning, programs.  I have a long history studying cultural anthropology , comparative religion and western ritual magic  .... and some experience 'in the field '  . 

 

Mostly it is based on  the Hierarchy of Spirits model  and modified by the principle mentioned above with  finding the internal structure 'instructions'   within the arrangement  and structure of the initiatory organisation *  ( and modified by my own and others relevant research and findings ) .   To simplify it,  it can be seen as basic magical practice / realization  . One way to explain it simply is to put the psyche on the Tree of Life   (  note, not the body ... that does not really work and was one of those   HGD  'innovations'  . )

 

basically the Magician is , or should be training to become , the King of the psyche ( the Kingdom ) 

 

 

First you have a Kingdom - the psyche .   Upon that you must start with building a firm foundation ( in all sorts of ways ! ) . A King must have majesty  and victory ( or he is 'overthrone' ) ... these titles also relate to the  mind and emotions ; the 'sciences ' ( hermetic  and others ) and 'nezach' also being 'love' .  beauty of spirit and heart ... the 'lion / Sun force' and the 'ego' at the center ( some might say 'the King himself' )  . power and mercy   or severity and mercy are the 'left and right arms' of the King  eg.   '' 12. Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil.''

 

then above the abyss  ( Daath )  the King should have understanding , especially the understanding of how the 'world and nature works' and the understanding of the repercussions of his own decisions and actions , going out into that world of nature and interacting and effecting its forces and those forces affecting him .  Then  wisdom develops , which is the  'if and when ' of such actions , with the considerations of the previous understandings ... then one may come to place the magicians crown upon the head 

 

In hermetics the prime directive ( as it was said to be inscribed on the archway into the divine rites 'arena' ) ' Man , know thyself ' , to me this includes all the above ( as well as the anthropology - the study of Man , and the other subjects I studied ; religion , psychology etc . ) - there is a   'hermetic planetary descent incarnation concept' ; as if, when one incarnates , we come 'in' via  the  planetary hierarchy and 'land' on earth . On the way we pick up the positive and negative  aspects of the planetary energies  and during our life we are to work on them , refine them and balance them .  Each sphere on the Tree of Life can be related to a planet with these energies as well . 

 

But that is just the 'template ' , as we know the planets move around and create different angular relationships , bring forth or suppressing various positive and negative aspects  - hence the natal horoscope , which gives us a more individually defined path and 'map' of the development required .

 

There is more  ... like other systems such as exo-psychology and methods and practices .... but I will leave it  here at the moment ,  ... the hierarchy ... without a hierarchy or a King ..... we can end up a real mess  - disturbed psychologically , perhaps not realizing our goals and purpose here  (in this incarnation )  ... or actually ... just 'normal '    ( and yes that is a problem ... that becomes apparent  when you also study history and current affairs     .... we are a bit of a mess !   - if not a rampaging murderous destructive maniac .... collectively ) . 

 

*  - a difficult reference to cite as it is  knowledge 'under oath'  and the public documents do not show that specific instruction.... however  a question to AI shows  ; 

 

'' ...   provides the foundational framework for the order's governance, which members are expected to study and understand to better govern their own lives  ....   ''

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, J.Finder said:

 

... I’m currently rereading The New Lemegeton: goetic psychoanalysis (author Enmerkar), ....

 

 

I had a quick look at that - interesting . An interesting converse could be had about that , particularly the ideas of invocation and evocation .

[J.Finder]

On 21.11.2025 at 1:37 AM, Nungali said:

Are you familiar with IFT  ?  

Thank you very much for your response — this is truly fascinating...
 

I’m not familiar with IFT and am encountering it for the first time, so thank you for the link — I’m currently in the process of reading about it. I feel I’ll need some time to explore this approach more deeply and go beyond what is outlined in the article. At first glance, it looks very interesting, especially the three roles described in the model.

I’m deeply interested in self-work and in methods for overcoming inner dead ends and destructive tendencies of the mind, especially when these in some way resonate with the Inner Goetia framework. For me, it serves as a kind of inner map that helps me orient myself more quickly in challenging states (if I manage to remember in time) and find the right “remedy” when I notice destabilisation.

 

Edited yesterday at 07:09 AM by J.Finder

[J.Finder]

On 21.11.2025 at 1:37 AM, Nungali said:

 Some posts outlining my own work and going way back somewhere here .... some pictures of my temple set up .

Would you be willing to share links to your posts?
I’d be very interested to read them

Edited yesterday at 07:09 AM by J.Finder

[J.Finder]

On 21.11.2025 at 2:42 AM, Nungali said:

I had a quick look at that - interesting . An interesting converse could be had about that , particularly the ideas of invocation and evocation .

Yes, I agree 🙂
This is exactly the author and practitioner whose quotation I mentioned earlier.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 07:10 AM by J.Finder

[J.Finder]

On 21.11.2025 at 1:37 AM, Nungali said:

set of methods and approaches for observing destructive tendencies of the mind    ...  and what can be done to counterbalance it.

 

I suggest creating a separate thread on the forum dedicated to discussing practical methods and approaches to self-work and to counteracting destructive tendencies of the mind, and continuing the conversation there.

How do you feel about that?

Edited yesterday at 07:11 AM by J.Finder

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, J.Finder said:

Would you be willing to share links to your posts?
I’d be very interested to read them

 

I'll give it a go ....  (   they are not indexed or cataloged and the search function doesn't work, last time I checked some old ones ,  the images had gone and been replaced with a blurry window with an X  across it  ( ??? )  but they are in there somewhere ..... among the 22,000 posts     )  ....  I am supposing its the ones regarding evocation / invocation  you want to read ? 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, J.Finder said:

 

I suggest creating a separate thread on the forum dedicated to discussing practical methods and approaches to self-work and to counteracting destructive tendencies of the mind, and continuing the conversation there.

How do you feel about that?

 

Sure ... go for it . 

[Nungali]

'' Would you be willing to share links to your posts?
I’d be very interested to read them ''

 

I am not sure how this is going to unfold .... I am going through my profile  > activity  and selected > 'topics'  - I have never looked through that before .... OMG  !    This may take some time , especially when I come up against things I have supposedly written but have no memory of .... like this ; 

 

 

 

 

and being totally distracted  !

 

Neurosis and 'illumination'    ( vaguely related ) 

 

 

 

 

 

This one used to have great pics ... but now they are gone ;

 

 

a very early one  2014 

 

 

 

These are posts within other's subjects ;

 

 

- I am finding it very hard to navigate through 'Topics' only has 10 pages .....my content only has 12 pages  ( with an option to type a page number in .... less than 12 .   'posts'  lists over 800 but shows all the text , not just the subject matter  . 

 

Here is a link to a paper I mentioned 

 

https://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

Here is a new one  that I am about to read  ;

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10912-018-9519-z#:~:text=And this actually does occur,is possessed by that spirit.

 

All the rest .... you will have to try and figure out how to use the search engine  or just ask questions ...... its all still in here ; 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Nungali

[Cobie]

steel underpants also good for antilope dung collecting 
Google something like ‘dao bums forum <topic>.

E.g. ‘dao bums forum evocation invocation?’ comes up with 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Cobie

[Nungali]

I was just about to ask about that , someone gave the magical formula recently , I just tried it before and  all I got was the Daobums main page 

 

I'll try again . 

[Nungali]

... yeah just that one entry and then links to the general forum .

 

It worked the other day ; either the subject matter or the 'daobums' part has to be in  quote marks ..... last week I got pages of Daobums entry from doing it the right way ...... anybody ? 

[Nungali]

One from Donald   ( he's good ! )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

This works  ;

 

I used google search  

 

site:thedaobums.com "exorcism"   or   any other  eg .     site:thedaobums.com " ( the subject  )  "